So now CoH is a "raiding" game.

Most of them did at one time. At one time:

You couldn't get a respec unless you had a full team;
You couldn't get a Hamidon Origin enhancers (which were quite powerful at the time) unless you raided;
You couldn't generate (although you could buy) Pool 'C' and 'D' recipes;
You couldn't and still can't get certain accolades, e.g. TF Commander, unless you team.

You're taking the definition of "progress" and narrowing it so that it suits your argument. Loot has always been a form of progression in MMORPGs, including this one. Loot has always been significantly easier to gain teamed in this game.

There is no change of focus.

But the *entire* endgame doesnt revolve around needing groups. There will be solo arcs and incarnate based options down the road while also more group based trials at the same time.
The BAF and Lambda trials were just the start of the endgame, this is level level 1 - 5 of the endgame system.

All of these except Hamidon enhancements were possible without raiding. Yes, Hamidon enhancements were a short dark time in the history of the game, one I had hoped we had moved away from.

But I don't mind if some rewards are group oriented, like Task Force commander or special IO recipes that can be traded. I don't object to that. I object to the whole of the end game progression design being now focused on large scale group trials (basically raiding) with smaller groups as an afterthought.

If not my own opinion, then what exactly did you expect me to express?

Sorry what i meant was that your original post gave out the assumption that you was explaining why this game shouldnt have these kind of raids and not how you now explain that it is more down to a thread about why you yourself dont like them.
Now that to me makes a much better thread since it gives room for compromise.

There was a time remember [pre i8?] where you could ONLY get a respec by the respec trials and only a max of 3 . . . . ever [iirc?].

There have been many threads on this topic. Most of them degenerated into "if you don't like it, shut up and go make another alt or quit" flames from people who completely miss the point. This one is going the same way.

I just find it interesting that the people who defend multi-group content are some of the same people who complain about the lag in said multi-group content. I also find it very interesting that the dev team is pushing ahead with more multi-group content without addressing some of the underlying issues with said content, namely, that they are unable to properly support it from a technical standpoint.

And as many people have point out IN THIS VERY THREAD, the Dev. Team is working on other things to allow it. Sorry you want it NAOW.

Also, these are not "raids" in the sense of raids in other games. You form a team, and these things are usually done in under 30 minutes. OH NOES THE HORRORS! 30 MINUTES OF EFFORT!

Personally the only problem i have with the lag on trials is on the lambda which i refuse to do. Not because of the amount of people on it but because of the warehouse tile it uses.
But heard theres a fix somewhere soon so im happy.

More like 30 minutes of awesome super powered fun.

Dev's have already said they are going to add a solo option, via story arcs. And Lambda can be completed with 8 people. So how is that any different then an LGTF or ITF (ITF is REQUIRED to get Roman Costume Pieces by the way)

There is solo progression. I've figured that if you collect, and convert 10 shards a day into threads, and then those threads into iXP you can get ALL your slots unlocked, AND have t1 boosts in ALL your powers in about 28 days time. This is not counting running the Apex or Tin Mage, and assuming you NEVER step foot into a Lambda or Baf.

This games strength has been more in just scalable small group content. Look at all the REQUIRED 8 man team Task Forces.

RSF -> Required for a Villain Accolade
STF -> Required to get the flyer badge on hero side
LGTF -> Also drops vanguard merits, and can trigger zone wide rikti invasion, thus providing more badges to more people
All of the shadow shard TF require 8 people, mainly due to the multiple glowies needing to be clicked at the same time.

Apex and Tin Mage require 8 people as well.

All of the above task forces require the same number of people as Lambda does, and actually take far longer to complete then lambda does. How is that 'raiding'? Because you can have more then 8 people? You can collect shards at any given level once you gain access to the alpha slots, either via a solo-able story arc, or unlocking it via the iTrials. Then you can convert those shards into threads, and those threads into more iXP allowing you to basically solo your way up the new slots.

Thats also ignoring the fact that the dev's have already said multiple times over that they are going to be adding a solo friendly option to the incarnate system.

ITF provides exclusive access to Roman themed costume pieces, RSF provides a badge that is required for villains to get an accolade. Task force commander requires 6 different task forces (half of which require more then 4 people to start) for heroes to get their accoaldes.

Without the market in place, Hami's are only available via Hami raids, or the RSF or STF.

There are plenty of things that are only available to groups, your just choosing to ignore them to make a point that is pretty invalid.

Large scale groups? 8 people is large scale? 12 i can sorta see, as thats higher then a single team requirement, but 8? Lambda can easily be completed with just 8 people, heck i was doing it from day 1 of issue 20 hitting the live servers.

How is 8 people 'large scale'?

You have to understand one thing here. People WANTED an end game system. And in order to get said in game system, they dev's had to create a way to allow progression slowly, without people finishing it all within a days or even a weeks time. That is exactly what these iTrials do, and they do them very well.

This is NOT WoW level raiding. This is not 'Either down that boss, or go home empty handed' raiding. This is NOT 'yep, you ran this raid once this week already, shame that you have more time to do it, its just not gonna happen'. THIS IS NOT 'Spend 5 hours in once instance beating on a bag of hp and then he drops the gear you can't even use'

Stop trying to compare the iTrials to other games raiding systems, as city got it right. They provided a means to progress past the max level, while maintaining the casual friendly nature of the game. Yes, i would've been happier with more then 2 trials, but with the fact the dev's have already said they are going to release trials in between issues, and that issues will be focusing on improving the existing slots, or adding more slots has pretty much made me deal with the lack of instant trails.

There is more trials coming, please just be patient.

It indicates a troubling direction with the game, where solo and small group content have become the afterthought.

Because you disagree with me. I see.

Ugh. In my experience these take 20-30 minutes to form for only 30 minutes of play. This means nearly half my play time on a given night is suddenly wasted if I want to pursue this. You aren't really making a compelling argument why this should become the preferred method of endgame content.

CoH has designed several end game systems. The best, IMO, is the IO set system. The alpha slot system moved away from that but still provided decent solo options. The reason for this post is every iteration of new end game the devs introduce move away, not towards, these successful systems. I am trying to articulate my opinion and desire to move back towards these systems.

The devs don't exactly have the best track record for 'finishing' things. I'll be pleasently surprised if they do come with a solo/small group method of advancement, but forgive me if I don't hold my breath, given that Raids are the new shiny, and the devs tend to put everything that isn't their newest toy on the back burner.

1. So, they should simply give up developing the game totally, by that logic. Newsflash, EVERY player is whiny and obnoxious from time to time.

2. So, you pay their subs for them now? Or someone else does?
No? Thought not. Your 'point' here is utterly moot.

3. We get it, Saist. You're always right. Of course you are. You're the master of scathing and bileous sarcasm and put down. Everyone should just shut up and admit how wrong they are, cowed by the infinite wisdom of your good self.
Doesn't read so well like that, does it?

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

The difference is the other examples are one time rewards. I need run those only once, and can progress in other ways even if I never complete them. I have no problem with some rewards in the game requiring group content.

The current endgame is completely different than these examples because it requires you to grind these over and over.

Do them very well is subjective. I personally thing they do them poorly. The best end game system of any MMO I've played in the IO system in this game. If an alt hits level 50 tomorrow I still have months of game play before I finish all my IO sets. I am making constant progress, seeing small upgrades in my power, and building towards my character theme.

(Edit: When I say "poorly" the specific problem I have with the system is having to run them many times. Running them once or a few times is fine.)

Each iteration of end game the devs have introduced have moved away from this type of system. It's gotten to the point that solo and small group content aren't even an option until months later. This is troubling to me. If this is a one time problem; the solo options just didn't get finished in time and in the future the small group and solo game is unlikely to lag behind then great. My concerns are alleviated! I am not getting that impression however. If this is what we can expect as the norm then I would like to express my dissatisfaction with that.

OH NOES! Someone having a different exprience from me that they find unenjoyable! I must pour sarcasm and rhetoric on them for daring to have their own likes, dislikes and opinons! I WANT THEM TO SHUT UP TO STOP INCONVENIENCING ME (somehow!)!

Whining about whining...strewth, only on the internet.
Yes, I realise thats also a double irony. Sue me.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

They usually so degenerate because folks tend to use false and hyperbolic arguments in support of their criticism of the trials. As it is with this post.

I'm not big on having the raids - but I'll run them. They're fast.

I'll continue arguing for Incarnate level task forces and soloable content, as well. Supposedly they're looking into it, but - well, we'll see.

However, I disagree the solo/small group play has become an afterthought. We HAVE had missions and TFs added to the game - Sutter and Kai don't take long to do (or require a big group,) and we have had other content added. (After all, unlocking Incarnate abilities can be done solo - so can earning shards, though it's slow. Yes, I know about the conversion costs, and that's another thing I argue for changing.)

Ideally, by this time next year (yes, I know) we'll have:

- Multiple raids similar to what we have now (30 min. or so.) Enough to rotate and prevent burnout.
- Multiple TF (4-6 person) that are Incarnate-appropriate
- A fair number of Incarnate-appropriate story arcs that actually have, oh, storyline behind them (versus the "go hit stuff" raids,)
- New content that has absolutely nothing to do with Praetoria.

... and I'd like a pony.

(And if you've read any other recent posts of mine, you know how wary I am of the dev team actually *continuing* to pay attention to this. I've compared them to a dog in a room full of bouncing rubber balls, easily distracted from what they were just chasing. I still feel that way.)

See my Guides and Tutorials

Actually, Bill, I'd be willing to bet real money with you on that part - call it $15 - that at this time next year, we will still not have seen a single solo-doable piece of Incarnate content aside from Ramiel (which is already in the game). Drop me a line around this time next year with a paypal address and I'll honour my promise if I'm wrong. And, no, I don't expect to be paid money if I'm right

Getting punched in gut also hurts less than getting stabbed in the head, but I'm still not going to appreciate getting punched just because "it could be worse." It can always be worse, but that doesn't make reality any better.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

You can't have my pony, Bill.

Having actually done those types of grueling raids on many occasions before, I believe your analogy is inaccurate. If you must cast raids in a negative light, a better analogy would be:

Raids/trials in CoX = Being poked with a tree branch.
Raids in other MMOs = Getting skewered by a wooden stake.

The Trials are not raiding.

Raiding takes 1-5 hours a night, 5-7 nights a week. The trials take, at their very worst, an hour and a half to complete.

Good lord, man, this argument has been beaten to death, back to life, to death again, and then somehow beaten to death again.

CoX is not a raiding game. It never has been, it isn't now, and it never will be. They didn't delete content, they didn't change the rest of the game into raids, the ONLY change came with the Trials, and those are now trivial thanks to the powers they unlocked.

Good grief. Take a chill pill and stop comparing CoX to the rest of the MMO market.

A perfect example of the hyperbole of this argument. I'm willing to bet, based on his posting history, that this poster has never been on a raid in any other MMORPG. Anyone who has raided in other MMORPGs understands immediately that CoH's version of an endgame isn't comparable.

But that doesn't matter because it's easier to make things up and complain rather than give the content a chance.