So now CoH is a "raiding" game.

Agreed actually players have even made comments about how much easier TFs like Statesman and Recluse have gotten since almost everyone is 50(+1) on them these days and some even have and use tier 3 or 4 Judgement, Lore, Destiny and Interface powers on them.. the added level shifts dont apply but those extra powers still exist.. I have an MM that now has 9 pets she can summon. Heck there was even a thread asking for a way to SHUT off incarnate powers because someone thought it was getting to easy to do Master of Runs

While its not as fast or simple you can get shards from anything now including exemplaring down. Shards can be turned into threads and threads build components for enhancements.. heck threads can even be used to BUY Incarnate XP. The trials are the fast track but there is nothing stopping a 50 level from using influnece and shards to accomplish the exact same thing.

As the Trials are tied directly and inexorably with the new ADVANCEMENT, what the rest of the game like IS COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT. New advancement is "the game".

You don't deny that the Trials are different from pre-existing content; you deny that we should have access to the new advancement because we don't like this new, different content. The fact that the old content is still there doesn't matter, because the old content doesn't get us the new advancement. Until it does, it doesn't matter what the rest of the game is like when having conversations about the new advancement.

You (collective) would do us all a huge favour if you'd stop recycling the same old irrelevant arguments. Unless your argument in some way involves a (viable - please don't talk about shards and those stupid conversion recipes) method to obtain new advancement, it means less than nothing in this context.

You refuse any option other than the specific one you want. On that basis, any argument anyone offers is irrelevant because it's not what you want. You can participate in this system without doing the trials. You can move much faster by doing them. You don't want to.

You saying that is irrelevant is nothing more than you putting your fingers in your ear and refusing to listen.

I completely disagree. The rest of the game is not irrelevant, nor will it ever be. I can still enjoy all the old content. If the new content has made the rest of the game irrelevant to you, then that is not my problem.

I'm sorry, what? Where'd this come from?

I didn't deny anything other than CoX being a raiding game. Get off your soapbox.

That road goes both ways. You (collective) would do us all a huge favor if you'd stop recycling the same old complaints.

I never posted about advancement. I never denied anything. I never even hinted at the first little bit you posted. You just put words in my mouth so you could fuel an argument that really came out of left field.

487,500,000 Influence and 450 shards over 45 days, I think.

I prefer my version, better:

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=259806

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SUPPORT - IT'S NOT JUST A GROUPING OF ATs
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More Than a Game
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A more reasonable conversion structure - one that took into account the vastly lower shard generation rate - would be more acceptable. The specific implementation that exists is the objectionable item, not the generic idea.

And I don't argue against the argument "hey, the trials are fun and I like them, so I don't really see a problem" (I disagree, but it's not an irrelevant nor unreasonable argument) as much as I do against the "new stuff just isn't for you, so stuff it" stance.

Allow me to just say, it has been done with one team of 6.

On Single Origin Enhancements.

Just sayin'.

Honestly, you accuse people of saying that a lot more than it's actually said. I'm not saying no one has said that. But it's extremely rare. Most people are objecting to the contention that the whole game has changed when it hasn't.

I personally object to the idea that you can't make any meaningful progress outside of the trials. Yes, it's slower, but it's only when you get to the rare and ultra-rares that it gets silly. Considering that people are stomping the non-Incarnate content with even commons, I don't see why people feel getting to the very rares is a reasonable expectation.

I thought you were going to refuse to play the Incarnate storyline anyway, because you didn't like the way that the crazed evil god-emperor ruling his fascist dictatorship shown in GR were revealed in I19 and I20 to be a fascist dictatorship ruled by a crazed evil god-emperor?

Oh i know Also was that guy in the controller forums i think who beat her solo i think?

My point being was that there are numerous activities in the game and have been for quite a while that require a lot of people

I love scrappy doo v2.0! The way he charges around the place is like a little mini scrapper on heat!

*Sigh*

Not this tired old canard again.

Massively multiplayer DOES NOT MEAN FORCED TEAMING. It simply means lots of people sharing the environment.

Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.

I think you're making a bit too much of this. Take a look at Cimerora. It's essentially "the ITF zone". There are some missions in there of an introductory nature. But for the most part, when it dropped, it was for the ITF and not much more.

Also, for i20, they had told us that new raiding systems were coming out. With the way issues drop here (every 3-5 months) that's not a LOT of time to beat together extensive solo or small teams content.

It's not so much an "afterthought" as a choice of priorities. They can dink with the missions content and possibly leave the entirety of the raids and incarnates systems uncompleted or delayed, or they can hammer out the systems and then fill in the solo content later.

Also, keep in mind, the solo content is consumed just as fast as everything else. People blow through it in a couple days then complain that there's nothing else to do.

I'm content to deal with introductory raid content, so long as it's fleshed out later with small teams/solo content.

Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.

At some point reading comprehension will kick in and the people who keep bringing up this tired old argument will realize that we don't care what other MMOs do, just like nobody cares how Grandpa had to walk five miles in the snow to school every day, uphill, both ways.

He doesn't want your pony. He wants a magical talking pony that sings, belches rainbows, and poops Oreo Cookies.

Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.

This is hyperbole. Most people are objecting to the current implementation of the 'other' path for Incarnate levels (shards and their conversion).

I tend to agree about very rares but Rares offer level shift and those should be a goal worth obtaining.

I still find it laughable that you think the current converstion method for shards to threads can be used to make 'meaningful progress.' Progress? Yes. Meaningful? Pfffffffft. :P

No... That's not what's being said.

Eiko isn't saying the rest of the game is irrelevant. Merely that using what the rest of the game is like in this argument is irrelevant.

HOWEVER, currently, if you wish to progress with the post-50 advancement system, you're locked into a single path right now with no viable options.

Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.

Soloing is not the default option of an MMO

How can raiding in other MMOs not be relevant to this discussion? Most of the complaints about trial/raids have been along the lines of accusing CoX of becoming a raid based MMO like most of the other ones out there (again, a total falsehood). The comparisons between CoX and *other* MMOs have already been done from the very first post in each and every one of these threads. You can't have it both ways.

Heh, have you played any other MMO than this in the past couple of years?

Most of the recent ones seem to see teaming as very much optional.

I've never really thought that the IO system was the best 'end-game' system out there. It does work as a nice time-extender to be sure, but it also happens incidentally to regular game play and then on top of that there's no challenges in the game currently that are really designed so that you need to have participated in the system in order to succede either.

So you have a nice time sink, but it's also a time sink that you neither do anything special to do nor is there any real reason to participate in it unless you personally want to. I'm generally of the opinion that effective end games (meaning end-games with broad appeal) are the ones that both provide a benefit as well as a reason for participating.

Once they eventually (hopefully) get some solo and small group content tied into the incarnate system I kind of think it might end up being one of the better ones out there. Accessible time wise, providing clear and obvious boost to your characters and involving content that really encourages taking part in the system.