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Anybody who thinks this is what Christians believe is way wrong, or is getting it from a branch of the Christian church that is a wee bit on the liberal side.
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Originally Posted by Durakken
Norse mythology is actually fully accepted in christian mythology. They merged a long time ago and is forgotten now, but Norse mythology according to the integrated mythology happens before genesis. They pulled that off because Ragnorak ends with the death of the gods and 2 humans under yggdrasil where as Genesis pretty much begins with a single god left (obviously there would have had to be one to tell the story of Ragnorak) and 2 humans in the garden of eden where the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was. Satan would have been created at this point after Ragnorak...
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Originally Posted by Ironik
???
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Originally Posted by Amy_Amp
Anybody who thinks this is what Christians believe is way wrong, or is getting it from a branch of the Christian church that is a wee bit on the liberal side.
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| They merged a long time ago and is forgotten now, but Norse mythology according to the integrated mythology happens before genesis. |
Some of it entered the main stream canon while a lot of it was either forgotten as people became less connected with their religions and/or maintained as canon (officially), but kept local.
Because most people don't know the commonly known canon of their religion they hardly ever know the less known parts.
Norse Christianity is one of those occurrences where it is considered canon, but because it's local and largely not connected with by even those who would be Odinists (or whatever they'd be called) noone but people who learns random trivia knows this type of stuff for the most part.
There are a number of other well known occurrences of this and more recent as well, but their names escape my mind right now, but one is from latin america and the other is a merge of Buddhism and christianity. I could also think of some more ancient world ones, but let's not as those are more likely to hit on sensitive spots.
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Yeah, when I was in college I had a Magic and Religion course that discussed a lot of this.
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Originally Posted by Durakken
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When Christianity was spreading rampantly (and they still do it today) the way they got so many converts, before just threatening them is by taking the mythology of the area and blending it so that whatever mythology was in the currently held beliefs of the natives would match up to christianity in some way. Some of it entered the main stream canon while a lot of it was either forgotten as people became less connected with their religions and/or maintained as canon (officially), but kept local. Because most people don't know the commonly known canon of their religion they hardly ever know the less known parts. Norse Christianity is one of those occurrences where it is considered canon, but because it's local and largely not connected with by even those who would be Odinists (or whatever they'd be called) noone but people who learns random trivia knows this type of stuff for the most part. There are a number of other well known occurrences of this and more recent as well, but their names escape my mind right now, but one is from latin america and the other is a merge of Buddhism and christianity. I could also think of some more ancient world ones, but let's not as those are more likely to hit on sensitive spots. |
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You used the word "accepted." That's inaccurate. Yes, early Christianity and then Catholicism co-opted pagan religions, but you're implying an entirely different level of integration where mainline Catholic dogma and mainstream Christians welcome core beliefs of the Norse myths, which is patently false.
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Originally Posted by Ironik
You used the word "accepted." That's inaccurate. Yes, early Christianity and then Catholicism co-opted pagan religions, but you're implying an entirely different level of integration where mainline Catholic dogma and mainstream Christians welcome core beliefs of the Norse myths, which is patently false.
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It depends on what you mean.
if we're talking mainstream, which is the general populous, I'd have a few page pamphlet, if that. Most people don't believe 99% of what the canon of their religion says.
I think going off that is ludricrious. How would I or anyone possibly know what 40,000 sects believe and then know what each individual believe as individuals of sects don't believe the same thing as what is accepted as the canon of their sect.
No, instead I would much rather go off the majority representative in this case which is the catholic church which in the case of christianity. And as such Norse mythology as well as many of those other mythologies are canon and accepted by the catholic church. Whether Catholics believe that is another story.
It's kinda like if the president ordered torture... well I don't agree with it, but the majority representative does and as such i can't be mad at a person when someone says i support torture.
I saw movie twice(took my nephew for the second time.), and felt like everyone who was in the movie belonged there as it was well actted. if I didn't know the differences between 616 and the movie it wouldn't have jumped at me at all as it just felt was was supposed to be that way. Which is the point of actors, for them to own the roles they do. All of them rocked, and I look forward to seeing more of Asgardians both in the Avengers or future Thor films.
As for Akira being made...I always think of This.
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Yeah, I'm not sure how you get to that conclusion. Whether people believe what their religion teaches is an entirely separate (and thread-lockable) discussion.|
Originally Posted by Durakken
It depends on what you mean.
if we're talking mainstream, which is the general populous, I'd have a few page pamphlet, if that. Most people don't believe 99% of what the canon of their religion says. I think going off that is ludricrious. How would I or anyone possibly know what 40,000 sects believe and then know what each individual believe as individuals of sects don't believe the same thing as what is accepted as the canon of their sect. No, instead I would much rather go off the majority representative in this case which is the catholic church which in the case of christianity. And as such Norse mythology as well as many of those other mythologies are canon and accepted by the catholic church. Whether Catholics believe that is another story. It's kinda like if the president ordered torture... well I don't agree with it, but the majority representative does and as such i can't be mad at a person when someone says i support torture. |
The core tenets of Norse mythology, such as its creation myth, its view of the apocalypse, the nine worlds, animal spirits... that's tantamount to saying that Christianity takes as a core belief the Native American notion that Earth resides on the back of a giant turtle. Much of what we know of Norse mythology comes from sources *after* Christianity had already established a firm foothold, so there was a lot of cross-pollination between the two. Meaning that existing Norse myth is very likely borrowing bits of Christianity and has stuff that is in direct reaction against Catholicism in particular.
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That's the beautiful thing about Ragnorak and Norse Mythology... everything is destroyed and the world restarts and it just so happened that the end of ragnorak ended with a setting similar to genesis so they just said that Norse myth is a prequel... but theoretically any religion could fit that position with Norse.
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Originally Posted by Ironik
Yeah, I'm not sure how you get to that conclusion. Whether people believe what their religion teaches is an entirely separate (and thread-lockable) discussion.
The core tenets of Norse mythology, such as its creation myth, its view of the apocalypse, the nine worlds, animal spirits... that's tantamount to saying that Christianity takes as a core belief the Native American notion that Earth resides on the back of a giant turtle. Much of what we know of Norse mythology comes from sources *after* Christianity had already established a firm foothold, so there was a lot of cross-pollination between the two. Meaning that existing Norse myth is very likely borrowing bits of Christianity and has stuff that is in direct reaction against Catholicism in particular. |
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So far, the only things that have come from the Ultimate universe is Nick Fury being Samuel L. Jackson and Bruce Banner working on the Super Soldier formula. Nothing in Thor was from the UU. (Orson Scott Card's Ultimate Iron Man was so terrible, in fact, that everyone else went, "Wha--?" and they immediately retconned it into being a fictional story *within* the UU. Editorial really dropped the ball on that one.)
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Originally Posted by Coach Hines
Also this Ultimate crap stinks. These characters became the beloved characters that they are for a reason. All of these movies would have been better had they featured the classic versions of the characters.
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Wasn't that with something like Tony Stark skin being brain cells or something?|
Originally Posted by Ironik
So far, the only things that have come from the Ultimate universe is Nick Fury being Samuel L. Jackson and Bruce Banner working on the Super Soldier formula. Nothing in Thor was from the UU. (Orson Scott Card's Ultimate Iron Man was so terrible, in fact, that everyone else went, "Wha--?" and they immediately retconned it into being a fictional story *within* the UU. Editorial really dropped the ball on that one.)
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I thought Thor's costume had a look of the UU about it in the movie.
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[Citation Needed.]
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Originally Posted by Durakken
i disagree with more of wat you said, but i'm just going to comment on this... Norse mythology is actually fully accepted in christian mythology. They merged a long time ago and is forgotten now, but Norse mythology according to the integrated mythology happens before genesis. They pulled that off because Ragnorak ends with the death of the gods and 2 humans under yggdrasil where as Genesis pretty much begins with a single god left (obviously there would have had to be one to tell the story of Ragnorak) and 2 humans in the garden of eden where the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was. Satan would have been created at this point after Ragnorak...
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As I mentioned upthread, the costume comes from Olivier Copiel's redesign when Straczynski took over the book. The UU Thor basically wears a leather vest and leather pants and has a belt that apparently gives him his power. I haven't read Ultimate Thor, but in the rest of the UU books, he appears to be a delusional hippie who has a piece of high-tech gear that mimics the god of thunder's abilities.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
Wasn't that with something like Tony Stark skin being brain cells or something?
I thought Thor's costume had a look of the UU about it in the movie. |
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I'm going to pretend that Ultimates post-Millar didn't happen, so I'll just say that Thor was actually a god in the Ultimate U.
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Originally Posted by Ironik
As I mentioned upthread, the costume comes from Olivier Copiel's redesign when Straczynski took over the book. The UU Thor basically wears a leather vest and leather pants and has a belt that apparently gives him his power. I haven't read Ultimate Thor, but in the rest of the UU books, he appears to be a delusional hippie who has a piece of high-tech gear that mimics the god of thunder's abilities.
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616 Thor after the reboot/redesign:
Ultimate Universe Thor:
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I'm just glad they didn't have Hemsworth rocking that 80's metal hair do.
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Originally Posted by Ironik
616 Thor after the reboot/redesign:
... ... |
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Hawkeye: Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D.
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Originally Posted by Ironik
So far, the only things that have come from the Ultimate universe is Nick Fury being Samuel L. Jackson and Bruce Banner working on the Super Soldier formula. Nothing in Thor was from the UU.
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Also Black Widow: Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D.|
Originally Posted by mousedroid
Hawkeye: Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D.
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(Yes, I know she was an agent in the 616 universe. Not until long after her first appearance, though.)
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Originally Posted by Durakken
the other is a merge of Buddhism and christianity.
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Originally Posted by Durakken
That's the beautiful thing about Ragnorak and Norse Mythology... everything is destroyed and the world restarts and it just so happened that the end of ragnorak ended with a setting similar to genesis so they just said that Norse myth is a prequel... but theoretically any religion could fit that position with Norse.
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Exactly. When it was young, Christianity spread by incorporating the beliefs and practices of the people they were trying to convert. But as those earlier beliefs died out, they were dropped (for the most part...the date of Christmas, Christmas trees and Easter eggs and bunnies are still around). Although I'd say it's less of a "dropping" as I don't think they were ever an "official" part of the religion, and more used as a metaphor to explain the religion in terms that the new converts were used to.
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Depending on where you go, there are still crossovers between more native beliefs and creativity. Looking into history, things like the Virgin of Guadalupe are a little... fishy (as in being a local belief having a lot of hold with Christians in the area).
There have also been Christians that have been rather taken with ideas in Norse myth (the writer or editor of Beowulf, CS Lewis, and Tolkien among them), but no, Christian beliefs are not merged with Norse beliefs. Not sure where Durakken is getting that from, but I have never heard it in any Protestant or Catholic writings. At all. In the cases of the above people, they actually struggled with how intrigued they were by Norse beliefs, since much of them did not sync up with Christianity.
Not even sure what to do with this line, either. "Most people don't believe 99% of what the canon of their religion says." If you don't believe in 99% of a religion, you're not a part of it. Going by that, I must be a hardcore Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, etc. Heck, I could even believe in Norse or Greek myth. 99% means you hardly agree with anything the religion stands for.
Anyway, I do think Norse myth is quite interesting. It's strikingly different from a lot of other mythologies, and I always found the idea of Ragnarok to be startling in contrast with Greek myths. I'm hoping to check out the movie this week, if work can stop getting in the way of things.
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He's not in SHIELD in regular continuity? Okay, that's three. (I'm pretty sure Black Widow was in SHIELD in 616.)|
Originally Posted by mousedroid
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What would really be awesome is a few years from now they do a movie based on Ultimate Spider-man (which can't happen due to licensing, but I can dream) and have all the Avengers show up the way they do in that book, which is really the only decent Ultimate comic out there.
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I think what Durakken may be referring to is that several of the books on Norse myth I've read have specifically made Ragnarok a transition to the new Christian world. After Ragnarok's over, there's only an Adam and Eve type left and it goes from there.|
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
Depending on where you go, there are still crossovers between more native beliefs and creativity. Looking into history, things like the Virgin of Guadalupe are a little... fishy (as in being a local belief having a lot of hold with Christians in the area).
There have also been Christians that have been rather taken with ideas in Norse myth (the writer or editor of Beowulf, CS Lewis, and Tolkien among them), but no, Christian beliefs are not merged with Norse beliefs. Not sure where Durakken is getting that from, but I have never heard it in any Protestant or Catholic writings. At all. In the cases of the above people, they actually struggled with how intrigued they were by Norse beliefs, since much of them did not sync up with Christianity. Not even sure what to do with this line, either. "Most people don't believe 99% of what the canon of their religion says." If you don't believe in 99% of a religion, you're not a part of it. Going by that, I must be a hardcore Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, etc. Heck, I could even believe in Norse or Greek myth. 99% means you hardly agree with anything the religion stands for. Anyway, I do think Norse myth is quite interesting. It's strikingly different from a lot of other mythologies, and I always found the idea of Ragnarok to be startling in contrast with Greek myths. I'm hoping to check out the movie this week, if work can stop getting in the way of things. |
Now, I haven't done any major research on the subject in terms of primary sources, but I'd be willing to believe that addition was made to ease the transition to Christianity for the Norse, much the same way that Brigid was made a saint by the Catholic church.
Of course, that just means that Norse myth was made somewhat compatible with Christianity, not that it was integrated into Christian 'canon.' Durakken is just overstating his case and not backing off from his original statement. It's par for the course.
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It's because it's the word of Raphael hehe.
| Of course, that just means that Norse myth was made somewhat compatible with Christianity, not that it was integrated into Christian 'canon.' Durakken is just overstating his case and not backing off from his original statement. It's par for the course. |
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Yes... Now to internalize.|
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
Not even sure what to do with this line, either. "Most people don't believe 99% of what the canon of their religion says." If you don't believe in 99% of a religion, you're not a part of it. Going by that, I must be a hardcore Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, etc. Heck, I could even believe in Norse or Greek myth. 99% means you hardly agree with anything the religion stands for.
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You can go to just about any person off the street (including priests) and start asking them about things they believe, compare it to what the canon of their religion says, and more than likely they will be in disagreement with everything other than the few things that are... i dunno a good word here... basically the child fairy tail stories that people believe from their mythologies and know nothing about the rest and when you question them further on those beliefs they don't believe them either.
As far as my "overstating" the case of the Norse/Christian merging. Sorry it's merged. The word is accurate. You can say transitioned or integrated, but the mere fact that you have to say "transitioned" implies that that there is a before that merged into the after within the belief structure. No, not everyone believes that Norse mythology transitioned into christian mythology, but then, not every christian believes that hell exists while still others don't believe in the trinity. So I really don't care whether "all" christians believe it or not, because I know there is a group of christians that don't believe anything that any other christian believe in and at that point it's not "christian dogma" but personal dogma that we're talking about.
As to Sif, in 616 she may not like her dark hair. Which is a very clear departure from the myths. Very little was said of her in the edas, but one thing remains clear: Sif had golden hair. In fact, other than being Thor's wife and the mother of one of his children it is the only thing Sif is known for, sadly. Loki cut off her golden hair as a practical joke. So Thor made Loki have the dwarves make her a wig of gold. Which when apparently merged with Sif as it grew as real hair.
And yes, Thor is a big guy with flaming red hair and a beard.