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Just to clarify: you're fine with Michael Clarke Duncan playing this guy, but not okay with Idris Elba playing Heimdall...and your reasoning why is because in the comics he "looks fairly Nordic"?|
Originally Posted by mousedroid
I'll let this go after this post but if you're going to play the "Marvel Comics interpretation of Norse myth" card...
http://marvel.wikia.com/Heimdall His complexion looks fairly Nordic in all the comcis references listed on their wiki. |
I dunno, Kingpin "looks fairly white" to me in the wiki.
And to address the "gods or aliens" issue, I was always of the understanding that the gods of the Marvel Universe were extra-dimensional entities, some truly immortal and some not quite, that inspired myths and legends. Both gods and aliens, really.
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I am. The overall terrible-ness of those movies aside, the only time I really look askance at the casting of an actor that doesn't "match" the character as depicted in the source is when the "character" is/was an actual person. And even then, a good enough actor can get past that. Cate Blanchette played Bob Dylan in a movie not too long ago and pulled it off.
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Originally Posted by Zikar
So, you were fine with The Last Airbender, Dragonball Evolution and the upcoming Akira all featuring white leads?
"A racist clock is right twice a day." - Penny Arcade (Just an FYI, I don't care that he's black, but I recognise this is a double standard at the same time) |
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The movie very explicitly explains at the beginning that it's version of the Asgardians are aliens and definitely not actual gods. It's much clearer on that than the comics are. So much so that I'm beginning to wonder how many people who've complained about black Heimdall actually watched the film
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Originally Posted by Shawn Sage
And to address the "gods or aliens" issue, I was always of the understanding that the gods of the Marvel Universe were extra-dimensional entities, some truly immortal and some not quite, that inspired myths and legends. Both gods and aliens, really.
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As mentioned earlier in this thread, Hogun is the last surviving member of his race and has taken refuge among the Aesir (aka "Norse Gods").|
Originally Posted by mousedroid
To me the interracial casting seemed more racist than complaining about it. I agree with Coach Hines that Norse gods ought to be Norse.
I had no problem with Michael Clarke Duncan playing the Kingpin in Daredevil, and I would've had no problem with Zoe Saldana or Grace Park playing Jane Foster in Thor, but to make a Norse god African American was just jarring. Hogun was a jarring as well, but after looking at the comics again, I can see interpretting that character as Asian. |
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Originally Posted by mousedroid
I'll let this go after this post but if you're going to play the "Marvel Comics interpretation of Norse myth" card...
http://marvel.wikia.com/Heimdall His complexion looks fairly Nordic in all the comcis references listed on their wiki. |
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Aye, agreed. Fair point there.
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Originally Posted by Warp_Factor
I'd go further than that, actually; they're Ken Brannagh's version of the Ultimate version of the Marvel version of the Norse gods. Even in the classic Marvel mythos the Norse gods really are gods. The movie makes it very clear that they are not actually gods at all, despite having been worshipped as such.
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Tales of Judgment. Also here, instead of that other place.
good luck D.B.B.
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I didn't mean the movie version. I meant the comics version, Earth-616 specifically.
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Originally Posted by Warp_Factor
The movie very explicitly explains at the beginning that it's version of the Asgardians are aliens and definitely not actual gods. It's much clearer on that than the comics are. So much so that I'm beginning to wonder how many people who've complained about black Heimdall actually watched the film
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I did not get that at all. I admit that I may have missed it, but I never heard a single line saying that they were aliens. They simply mentioned that they came from another place than earth, which is also true of the "real" mythology. There was a line that I wish I could remember in which Odin made some kind of reference to his people existing since the dawn of time, as gods would. I'll post the actual line after I watch it again.
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Originally Posted by Warp_Factor
The movie very explicitly explains at the beginning that it's version of the Asgardians are aliens and definitely not actual gods. It's much clearer on that than the comics are. So much so that I'm beginning to wonder how many people who've complained about black Heimdall actually watched the film
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Est sularis oth Mithas
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He didn't use the word "alien", no. I'm not sure what else you'd call a non-human non-god being from another planet, though. I'm probably going to see it again tomorrow night, I'll see if I can remember the exact words he uses.
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Originally Posted by Arnabas
I did not get that at all. I admit that I may have missed it, but I never heard a single line saying that they were aliens. They simply mentioned that they came from another place than earth, which is also true of the "real" mythology. There was a line that I wish I could remember in which Odin made some kind of reference to his people existing since the dawn of time, as gods would. I'll post the actual line after I watch it again.
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You fail with your examples.|
Originally Posted by Zikar
So, you were fine with The Last Airbender, Dragonball Evolution and the upcoming Akira all featuring white leads?
"A racist clock is right twice a day." - Penny Arcade (Just an FYI, I don't care that he's black, but I recognise this is a double standard at the same time) |
Nothing in the Last Airbender cartoon ever said he WASNT white. In fact, they're in a totally different world than ours.
He was just a rather pale (some might say white) looking bald kid.
The fact that people think he's asain is only their perception. Looks at the link to Aang none of those pictures make me think "Yup, he's asain" Not even his voice/accent made me think Asain.
Dragonball Evolution. Same thing. Do they even mention race in DBZ? I don't recall them doing as such.
As for Akira, I thought they already said they were taking the premise of the movie and putting it in a new setting. It's not even in Tokyo. I wouldn't be suprised if they don't even use the same names of the lead characters from the anime.
MCD on the other hand was a good choice for the King Pin. Color of his skin aside, there's just not many actors who could pull of the role. MCD has the build to look muscled while still looking like he has some fat to him and manage to act decently.
As for Thor. Eh, the movie says they're not norse at all, so their race is of little concern.
And to go along with what Durakken commented about...since he seemed so off...since when did we know any religious figures actual look?
I don't recall seeing any photos of Jesus or Norse Gods to say "Hey, they'd really look like this" All we have are paintings, which all are at the artists choice.
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Aliens...Dimensional Beings...pretty much the same thing |
Originally Posted by Arnabas
I did not get that at all. I admit that I may have missed it, but I never heard a single line saying that they were aliens. They simply mentioned that they came from another place than earth, which is also true of the "real" mythology. There was a line that I wish I could remember in which Odin made some kind of reference to his people existing since the dawn of time, as gods would. I'll post the actual line after I watch it again.
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I wouldn't really call Asgard a "planet". It looked more like an island in space. Any physical space other than earth does not need to be called a planet. In many myths, there are otherworldly locales that are not planets. To my mind, they were presented as actual gods in the film, although one is certainly free to one's own interpretation of what constitutes a god. I don't agree with those who say that they can't be gods because they are not omnipotent. Few gods were/ are.
As for the race issue... I rather liked Heimdall, althought I agree that I found it odd to cast a black man as a Norse deity. *shrug*
I just wonder what the reaction might be if they cast Angelina Jolie as Mbaba Mwana Waresa...
Est sularis oth Mithas
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It sure looks to me like the Asgardians are flying through space when they go to Jotunheim. They refer to it as another "realm", but a realm could just as easily be another galaxy, another solar system, whatever.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
Aliens...Dimensional Beings...pretty much the same thing
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Well they acknowledged that they were responsible for the Norse God legends. And they were in fact the ones worshipped as Gods before.
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Originally Posted by Arnabas
I wouldn't really call Asgard a "planet". It looked more like an island in space. Any physical space other than earth does not need to be called a planet. In many myths, there are otherworldly locales that are not planets. To my mind, they were presented as actual gods in the film, although one is certainly free to one's own interpretation of what constitutes a god. I don't agree with those who say that they can't be gods because they are not omnipotent. Few gods were/ are.
As for the race issue... I rather liked Heimdall, althought I agree that I found it odd to cast a black man as a Norse deity. *shrug* I just wonder what the reaction might be if they cast Angelina Jolie as Mbaba Mwana Waresa... |
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My rule of thumb is this: The only time that race should be considered when casting a film is if racial themes (Discrimination, Jim Crow, ethnic clashes, etc.) are core to the film. Note that I say considered - this is not carte blanche to discriminate in casting, and I would love to see a film about race with truly race-blind casting (i.e. you have to infer what race the character is supposed to be based solely on how other characters treat them). |
Originally Posted by Zikar
So, you were fine with The Last Airbender, Dragonball Evolution and the upcoming Akira all featuring white leads?
"A racist clock is right twice a day." - Penny Arcade (Just an FYI, I don't care that he's black, but I recognise this is a double standard at the same time) |
So, for the Last Airbender and Dragonball (neither of which I saw), I don't see a problem with that casting per se, UNLESS there was a studio directive to cast a white lead over an Asian one for purposes of marketing (i.e. someone with money said that an Asian lead couldn't put butts into seats.) I'm not privy to those behind the scenes discussions, but I'm willing to bet that was the case because I know Hollywood's penchant for whitewashing. And I'm sure that the idea of using black or Latino leads never crossed their minds. The movies are not about race, so race-blind casting would be perfect for them, but I don't trust Hollywood to have actually made those casting choices in a progressive way, basing their picks on the people who could act the role and pull off the physicality of it well.
TL
R - the race of the characters was probably changed not because Hollywood chose the best actors, but because of beliefs about the marketability of those films based in racism.There's much more to it than just that, but that's wandering quite far afield, and beyond the scope of this board.
From what I hear, Idris Elba filled the role well, acting the part and inhabiting the role physically. What more can you ask for?
Also - I'm waiting for Conan to come out so we can all have this same damn discussion over again.
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For what it's worth, I agree with you in this particular case. There's enough room to argue that the Aesir should have more than one skin tone. Maybe Branagh intentionally shook things up to highlight the differences between his/Marvel's imagining of the Aesir and the traditional Norse myths. Or maybe he just genuinely felt that the physical considerations were outweighed by the actor's general suitability for the role.|
Originally Posted by Warp_Factor
I'd go further than that, actually; they're Ken Brannagh's version of the Ultimate version of the Marvel version of the Norse gods. Even in the classic Marvel mythos the Norse gods really are gods. The movie makes it very clear that they are not actually gods at all, despite having been worshipped as such.
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Still -- and to be clear, this next bit is not directed at Warp Factor -- casting decisions should at least consider physical appearance, which naturally includes the actor's complexion. It's not racist, in principle, to say that you found a given casting decision jarring based on how the actor looks. As Coach pointed out, noone would cast Malcom X as a white guy. If you did cast Malcom X as a white guy, you'd be doing that white guy no favors; the audience would be predisposed to judge his performance harshly no matter how well he acted.
There is a difference between arguing that someone shouldn't be allowed to work as an actor based on his race or his skin tone, and arguing that someone shouldn't be cast in a particular role on that same basis. Like any smart employer, movie studios are obliged to put their actors in the best position to succeed, if only for the sake of the product. If a director has a reason to reimagine an established character in a non-traditional way, then fine, but s/he has to realize there's a risk involved.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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#1. To suggest a race that according to legend can change their gender couldn't change their skin color (which is a far simpler process) is stupid and really quite racist in premise. It could be Heimdall just liked being black at that moment in time and norse looking when they interacted with the norse.
#2. To suggest a group wouldn't change their "deities" to be more like them is naive and suggests that you are not making the connection between your problem with Jesus being portrayed as white even though we know that if he existed he wouldn't have been and the fact that just because a mythology portrays a person one way doesn't mean they are that way and more than likely they have been move more towards the culture that admires them as time passes and further from their actual being.
As I said, I'm letting this issue go so as not to steer the thread closer towards the evil realm of Lock-enheim. I just want to say that my silence in regard to posts subsequent to mine do not indicate my agreement with them.
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In the movie, the Aesir themselves weren't Scandinavian, they were a bunch of aliens who descended on Trondheim (Norway) in 965 to stop a Frost Giant invasion.
If you want to nitpick the gods' appearances, you should start with Thor himself. In mythology he was described with red hair, not blonde.
Stop being Norsist, y'all!
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Norse myth Heimdall has three sons, each with a different skin color. The dark-skinned one is named Thrall.
But that's real mythology....I thought that Thor writer Simonson said that the Asgardians were mystic entities who didn't even have humanoid traits at all at first. That's pretty much in line with all Marvel mystic entities. Their physicality is part how people see them, part whim on their part.
Galactus only looks human because we're human.
More recently, the comic has been trying to pull the god line on us, but it rings very false to me. Not because I disrespect ancient Norse religion, but because the comic book is about powerful people and their adventures. I appreciate people who want to tell me ancient gods were just like superheroes, but frankly, that seems somewhat offensive. There are people who still worship these entities. Superheroes aren't real mythology--they're wish fulfillment with conflict thrown in for interest. Sure, a lot of them draw a lot from mythology, but that because that's how human patterning works. Just because Spider-man seems based on Anansi the Spider-man (except for being white since Anansi is an African god) doesn't mean he should be worshipped as the latest Anansi incarnation. Superpeople don't and shouldn't fit into the mold of real gods. We should never forget the stories are here to make money for corporations.
As for Elba, he looked the part of a grim guardian. Heimdall's appearance has never been important before, so he's always been depicted as a nondescript tall aryan guy. (The horns are important, though.)
More people ought to be upset that Marvel's Loki is black haired. Mythology is clear that he's a redhead, just as comparative mythology implies that he's a counterpart for Lucifer. Making him black haired throws that out the window in favor of a more simplistic light-dark symbolism. (Marvel's Sif is grouchy because she was cursed with black hair, for instance.)
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i disagree with more of wat you said, but i'm just going to comment on this... Norse mythology is actually fully accepted in christian mythology. They merged a long time ago and is forgotten now, but Norse mythology according to the integrated mythology happens before genesis. They pulled that off because Ragnorak ends with the death of the gods and 2 humans under yggdrasil where as Genesis pretty much begins with a single god left (obviously there would have had to be one to tell the story of Ragnorak) and 2 humans in the garden of eden where the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was. Satan would have been created at this point after Ragnorak...|
Originally Posted by Ashtoreth_NA
More people ought to be upset that Marvel's Loki is black haired. Mythology is clear that he's a redhead, just as comparative mythology implies that he's a counterpart for Lucifer. Making him black haired throws that out the window in favor of a more simplistic light-dark symbolism.
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This means that Loki and Lucifer are not related... also Lucifer is not a trickster where as Loki is and is part of a much older thematic type of god. Lucifer in the mythology is noble, loyal, and a master of "half-truths" where as loki is deceptive, disloyal, and has no honor.
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^This|
Originally Posted by mousedroid
As I said, I'm letting this issue go so as not to steer the thread closer towards the evil realm of Lock-enheim. I just want to say that my silence in regard to posts subsequent to mine do not indicate my agreement with them.
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I'm tapping out. Here is my final word on the subject. There is nothing wrong with wanting to see some historical accuracy on screen when you watch a movie.
Speaking of naivety it is far more naive to think that the creators of these movies (who are more often than not, out of touch with the canon material) put as much progressive and liberal thought into the matter of casting as you give them credit for, opposed to just bad casting.
Also this Ultimate crap stinks. These characters became the beloved characters that they are for a reason. All of these movies would have been better had they featured the classic versions of the characters.
Also if mythology Thor/Loki had red hair then they should have red hair in the comics/movie too.
Anyway good fight, good night. That is all.
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???
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Originally Posted by Durakken
Norse mythology is actually fully accepted in christian mythology.
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You are saying a black man can't do a job (actor) because of the color of his skin.
I don't particularly care how you dress up you statements beyond that point.
"A racist clock is right twice a day." - Penny Arcade
(Just an FYI, I don't care that he's black, but I recognise this is a double standard at the same time)