The I20 Incarnates Grind: Am I Missing the Point of Resurrecting My 50?

What if, even in the failed runs, I actually found the new content fun? If you don't think they're fun, don't do them. If you immediately go into these raids with the mentality of "I NEED NEW GEAR NOW!" they are not going to be fun and they're going to be grindy.

I remember plenty of discussion about how difficult the ITF was when it first appeared. It's become routine to the point that a failure during the ITF is a rarity.

If people don't find two pieces of content fun, there's 99% of the game still available to them, and two swanky new TFs for mid-level characters to try out.

No, I don't believe that is what he is stating at all.

ITF rewards merits which can be earned from nearly all content. He ran the ITF because it was fun and it also rewarded merits.

Lambada/BAF are the only way to earn Threads, etc for these new slots. He is REQUIRED to run these trials, even if they are not fun, in order to obtain the slots, etc in any reasonable amount of time/inf sink.

*ding ding ding* We have a winnar!

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No, what he's saying is that to get the rewards from the ITF (costumes, badges, whatever) you have to do the ITF one time (even possibly for the Master of badge). You can do the ITF again if you want (whether for fun or for merits or both), but you dont HAVE to do it again to get the rewards. This was pretty standard before i20, I can't think of one situation where you couldn't get to a reward without repeating content (I'm sure there's something, maybe more than one something, but I can't think of anything). Even the Alpha Slot could (I think) be brought to the very rare level without repeating content, especially now where shards drop earlier.

Conversely, there no way to get the rewards the new trials lead to without repeating content. And not just once, but many times.

I think that's the distinction he's making.

EDIT: Me type slow!

Except the extra 2 level shifts only work in the incarnate trials, not in the rest of the game.

Right. Which is why my server has seen a number of veteran players who had been missing from the game (some for as long as a couple of years) resubscribe. But other than that, you're right. There's nothing new here for old players with lots of level 50s.

Remember, just because YOU don't like something, it doesn't mean the whole world shares your taste. Adding tintable colors to the few powers that currently don't have it would be nice, but it's seriously not going to retain subscriptions. "Oooo...my controller can now have a green fireball. I'd better stay in the game!"

The Lambda Sector and BAF are the type of end game content other MMOs have, but from my experience they are MUCH more friendly to casual players that EQ or WoW-style raids. I remember a Plane of Hate raid in EQ that lasted well over 10 hours. TEN HOURS! And that was with an experience group that knew how to raid the zone.

Believe it or not, yes, there are people who want this type of stuff in the game.

Ok so then the real problem you have is you dont like the 2 new trials and so you dont want to do them over and over for the next 3-5 months until something new comes out?

You dont like them because they have rewards that require you to do them over and over, or you dont like the content because its not fun?

Why is it not fun? Because its too hard or because of something else?

I understand people saying things like I dont like the BAF because its not fun to me and since this is the only way to get the new currency I must do it over and over and therefore its a grind. To me the only part of this problem the devs need to address is the why its not fun part, and if its because its too hard I say ITF 1 week after it hit live (yes I to was crying about how hard the ITF was back then).

But saying its sucks because its a grind leads to an infinite loop.

Okay so you just admitted you have done the ITF multiple times and the LGTF.. I assume that's because you enjoy them. From that "I'll be giving these a TRY this weekend" comment I am also assuming you have yet to do either? So how do you know you won't enjoy them? The BAF is a problem child at the moment and keeps crashing but I have done a number of Lambdas and I like it. Now I understand what you mean by grind.. In one day I have managed to open and slot my Interface and my Destiny is at 50% so once they bring the game back on line I plan to open it as well. And I have not been on 10 trials but I have almost enough threads to slot my Interface with an uncommon and haven't even opened Destiny yet, Four different powers that all require 4 tiers will take a while and a lot of threads. But If I recall correctly they also said that the Tin Mage and Apex would be dropping threads now as well and if you get tired of those do anything else at ANY level now and shards drop. Once a day you can convert 10 shards into 10 threads for 2.5 million INF and a common component costs 20 threads. So you can convert 70 shards into 70 threads a week fora total cost of 17.5 million. That gives you enough to craft 3 common components or one uncommon (they cost 60 threads each).

As mentioned later issues will add more trials that will increase options and opportunities for threads.

As for the point? What is the point? No one says you HAVE to do the incarnate content at all. If you are perfectly happy leveling a character to 50 and then retiring it and starting another at level 1 you don't need to do thing with any of this new "STUFF". People begged for more stuff for their 50 levels to DO and the Devs delivered. Now we get some people that LOVE it and others complaining its to hard, to different, or to complicated. I have seen a horde of players in the RWZ running one trial after another since it went live yesterday so obviously someone is enjoying the new stuff. Give it time and actually TRY it before you form an opinion.

Please do not twist my words. I did not say:
-that no deactivated vets would return to the game.
-that adding customizations would would be a good way to keep current members interested.
-that this was the most difficult end game content out there for any MMO.
-that no one out there wants this type of stuff in the game.

What I said was:
-that the new content may be considered daunting to a returning character if they haven't been keeping tabs on the game.
-that adding customizations in addition to the new end game content would be an effective way to bring in new players as well as retaining vets.
-While I didn't say, I implied that this content might be considered frustrating to the casual player who may only have time to run one of these trials 1-3 times a week, if that, and therefore take all the longer to achieve. (But that's a moot point since becoming an incarnate is not supposed to be an easy nor fast process.)
-And finally, I simply stated that the player population is vast and diverse, and it may benefit the "powers that be" to release an issue more well-rounded, therefore appealing to a greater majority of players.

The Apex and Tin Mage TFs reward Threads at the end, and Shards can be converted into Threads too, and Shards now drop from under-50s too - so you can work towards the new slots by soloing or teaming in any of the non-Incarnate content.

A unique definition of the word

I wonder. I don't play WoW but I've heard the mantra repeated many times that the game only really gets interesting there once you hit the level cap and can start raiding. I believe it's common there to have fewer alts that you invest more time into. Perhaps the new CoH end game will attract players that saw CoH as being shallow when it lacked one?

Entirely agreed. I do worry about this new complexity alienating players that are considering returning.

There are a whole spectrum of devs. They all do different jobs. This issue has been a lot of programming work. But all the artists, designers and writers who do new missions, tilesets, powers, and costumes have to be working on something all this time, and it sure as hell wasn't i20 (or at least, not much). They've been hard at work on i21 for weeks, if not months. I would expect i21 to include a new Incarnate Trial or two but also a whole lot of non-Incarnate stuff.

I do not play WoW either, and all I have ever heard is "there are two halves: your journey to the level cap, and then what you do afterward." Interesting perspective, and entirely plausible. I hope you're right, I miss the days where, on any given server, there was a handful of new players looking to test things out. Any motivation for new players is good.

Admittedly, I had not thought of this, but it makes perfect sense. Again, I can only hope you are right.

Infinite loop... rather like "raid for gear to raid for gear to raid for gear?"

I don't mind hard. As I've said several times now - people complained about Trapdoor, I use him and the others in that as a test for my 50s, several of which have soloed that arc on SOs, much like I use BB's Shivan run as a test in the mid-late teens. I *liked* having Voids that were actually dangerous for my Khelds, and find their nerfing to be disappointing, but long in the past now.

I don't like feeling like I *must* keep running the same content over and over. Lambda isn't even all that interesting, frankly. Yet I have to keep running it if I want to get to the various powers... the point of which is, really, to run the same content, and which feed into themselves by being the only realistic way to get the rewards that let you get the powers.

Grind.

Yes, some people run ITFs constantly - but there's nothing there that makes them HAVE to do so. The same rewards can be gotten elsewhere. Yes, I *have* rerun the ITF on the same character at times - because I felt like it, and with wide spacing between runs. I didn't feel like I was losing progress.

Nor do I feel like, if I haven't run it, I'll be deadweight on an "ITF-powered" team that HAS run it over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.

In addition, I'm an altaholic. The game has, until now, catered to that. It's almost a design statement. Now? The refrain I hear over and over from players is "Concentrate on one 50, or maybe one hero and one villain." Great. So if I want to do anything with the other - what did I say before, 24? Nearly 25? - 50s, they're back to being dead weight.

With the new (non-incarnate) trials, I can fit them into a "what the heck, why not" play style. I can join from 20-50. It's inclusive. I'm not at a disadvantage because I'm not on a character that didn't grind away at the *same* trial over and over again. This isn't true for the Incarnate trials - or, frankly, system as a whole.

Oh, wait, I can "convert" things... for - what were those costs again? 20 million, 100 million, and 400 million INF? I don't have that on most characters. None have 400 million. Maybe two are close.

There's more than just "not fun" (as I find Lambda rather bland) here. And when they make comments about "Why is the well collecting incarnates? Hmmm," I worry that if I don't force myself to grind through this now, I won't see the future content either.

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The ITF, if you want the Nictus weapons. MO badges usually require more than one attempt, although it is possible to get one on your very first run of a TF.

Yes, it could.

I did have that, and I'm nowhere near the number of shards needed.

I feel the need to mention this every time someone complains about the inf costs of conversion, because unless you don't sell anything ever (and maybe even then) it's pretty much impossible not to earn the needed inf in the process of acquiring the needed shards.

That doesn't really make the inf cost trivial, at least to me. It just means the shard requirements (mostly due to low drop rate) are unduly enormous in comparison.

I know it's not trivial to some people, but to me it's like complaining about a hangnail when you have a broken leg.

One person's hangnail is another person's broken leg. That's part of the problem with the RNG.

*snipped for brevity, but I agree with all the points*

This is my stand point as well. With the Alpha slot, there were many avenues through which you could (and in some cases, needed) to travel in order to pick up the necessary components for creating your Alpha powers, and they varied from TFs, to ship raids, to even simple missions. Then would you go tackle the new content (The Tin Mage II and Apex task forces). Here, well... Memphis Bill said it all.

From a game lore standpoint, I get it. We, the Primal Earth super-beings, need to keep up a constant assault against facilities like the B.A.F. and the Lambda Sector, in order to cripple Tyrant's forces, at least until we can figure out a way to dispatch him for good. You could even justify the massive amount of defeats one may suffer by saying, "At least we made a dent. We will regroup and come at them again. As long as we keep them in check..." etc. etc.

But from a logical standpoint, it makes little sense. Let's say that these trials are indeed a "test" for incarnates ('trial' can be a synonym for 'test,' after all). Most tests are one-time opportunities that you study for in advance, so that when the time comes, you can pass it. I could go into examples and evidence, but I think the blanks can be filled in: this is not the design on which the trials are based.

What would have been more logical is to follow the system they already have in place: allow *insert necessary components for unlocking/crafting the new abilities here* to be obtained via multiple means, some of which do not even require your Alpha slot to be slotted (just unlocked). Then make these trials a test for your new abilities.

Some of you may say this is a case of, "Just because they didn't do it the way YOU wanted..." but surely my reasoning is clear. Logically, a trial that gives you the same awards that will make it more easily completable does not make sense.

Two BAFs. One success. Unlocked jack-all. Judgement 32% unlocked. Got 11 threads. Desire to keep doing this: none.

I run alts. I've run my first 50 from time to time. I run other characters. I *average* 40-65 mill on them. 100 mill for conversion, to me, is "don't bother." 400 million, to me, is "You'll get a PVP IO drop about the same time."

My highest -
Memphis bill, Pinnacle - 312 million.
CTI Dreamer, Victory - 324 million - and only because of a decent purple drop, first I'd had in quite some time.

Next highest are a hair over 100 million, and there's only a couple. Then down even farther. That *is* with selling. Drop on the market or vendor, depending on what it is (because after all, that Calibrated Accuracy recipe is in *such* demand.)

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Multiply by 25 for this altaholic, as far as "if you wanted to get them all." And I got *six* threads.

See my Guides and Tutorials

Sums it up perfectly. Repeated for emphasis. Like the trials, has to be repeated over and over and over and over.

Stunningly bad design.

I reiterate my point: Have any of these alts also earned thousands of shards?