The I20 Incarnates Grind: Am I Missing the Point of Resurrecting My 50?
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2011-04-05 17:51 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Quote:
Doing a trial once in awhile is "grinding"? OK. Let's suffice it to say that I don't see it that way. And for whom is doing a 30 min. BAF trial "not an option" ever?
|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
And we come right back around to "grind the trials". Never mind that there are people for whom this is NOT an option.
|
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Quote:
What do you consider a reasonable time-frame?
|
Originally Posted by Gemini_2099
There is a big divide.
You could slowly advance for the alpha slot in a reasonable time frame. The conversion of shards to threads isn't reasonable by any means. |
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
Quote:
You misunderstand what I'm talking about. There are people who, for various reasons (time, schedule, system/connection limitations) simply are not candidates for participation in these raids.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Doing a trial once in awhile is "grinding"? OK. Let's suffice it to say that I don't see it that way. And for whom is doing a 30 min. BAF trial "not an option" ever?
|
So working the discussion of "the solo option is prohibitively long" back around to "well run the raids then" is a massive wallbanger.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
I'd like to weigh in on this thread briefly, just because this issue bothers me quite a lot.
First, I think many of the replies suggesting that the content will become easier over time as new tactics disperse throughout the PuG hivemind and new boosts fall into the hands of Incarnate characters are spot on. We know from experience (ITF, STF, LGTF, etc.) that this is true.
I think the trials are well-designed, for the most part. Except for the temp powers with the Lambda trial - I hate that they're issued randomly. The other night, I was on two different runs where we did quite well in the sabotage bit (8/10 and 9/10 acids, hooray!), only to have a mere five portals go dark when the next phase started because some idiot liked the look of the molecular acid in their power tray too much to throw it away on a random reinforcement gate. At the very least, there should be some indication of who has what temp powers when the Marauder encounter begins in order to help coordinate this part, if only so I can know who I need to nag. But that's a rant for another time.
What irritates me most about I20 is the tunnel-vision focus on the trials as the sole source of Incarnate advancement. Yes, it's a grind. If you want to advance in the system, you need to farm the hell out of these trials.
It takes around three successful runs to unlock a slot, and perhaps more if you fail the trial. That's a minimum of 12 trial runs per character to unlock the slot, without putting anything into them.
My complaint here isn't 'It takes a long time to unlock the slots and I want my rewards NOW! Why can't I get my very rare in an afternoon?' Really, it isn't. It's supposed to take a long time. I accept that. Rather, my beef here is that 12 (at a minimum) is a lot of times to run the same thing over and over again. They had it right with the Alpha slot. You could advance a little bit just by playing the game normally. Sure, there are more efficient ways to go about getting shards - teaming is faster than soloing, endgame TFs are faster still, and going out of your way to run the WST is even faster than that. If you make a point to farm for shards, you will earn them faster. But it's optional. You can still become an Incarnate by playing normally.
Now, farming and grinding is pretty much mandatory if you want to advance in the incarnate system.
They did add the shards-to-threads conversion and a thread reward for the Tin Mage and Apex TFs, yes, but this is a tacked-on technicality. If you want to unlock a single slot, you would need to run these TFs 15-23 times depending on what slot you're trying to access. Or you would need to spend what would ordinarily be enough shards to slot the Uncommon alpha boost. Unlocking the slot and putting a common boost in it would cost 90 shards, 45 Tin Mage/Apex runs, or some combination of both.
In other words, it's technically possible, but it's so inefficient that it's pretty much never going to happen naturally.
You'd have to farm for it. And any player willing to farm is just going to run the trials, unless they have some weird grudge against trial content and absolutely refuse to run any. With that kind of effort, you could have all your very rares if you'd spent the time grinding Lambdas instead of Apex.
In I20, they added a bunch of cool, well-designed, and varied advancement options that are certainly worth the time to chase. Then, they erected a Great Wall of Grind around the Incarnate community to keep out anyone unwilling to grind the trials repeatedly. I feel like this is a strange departure from Paragon Studios' normal operating methods - they usually go to great lengths to limit farming. This time, they embraced it. I don't think this is a positive thing.
Don't get me wrong. I like the trials well enough, and the experience of them is fun for now, but the shine is going to wear off long before I've unlocked all my slots and put common boosts in everything on one character.
I haven't been this disappointed with an issue in a while. Ever, maybe.
The Ballad of Iron Percy
Quote:
I guess this is a case where the devs are damned if they do and damned if they don't. The number one knock I heard against this game from new players is "there's no end game? Pffft." The counterargument of "the journey is its own reward, just roll an alt when you hit max level" struck most of these people as a phoney rationalization for the lack of an important (to them) partof an MMO. A lot of players in other games like the option of being able to stick with an alt and basically be able to gear them up indefinitely. |
Originally Posted by firespray
City of Heroes has never been the kind of game that is designed for that sort of people though. It's never been the raid/grind style of MMO. It's always been much more casual. That's always been a big part of its identity, and I don't really think that changing that is a good thing. Do we really want to play in another WoW clone?
|
Quote:
| In the end though, I think my biggest problem with the new Incarnate content is that it's required. It's pretty clear that if I want to participate in the majority of content coming out in the near future, I'm required to participate in the grinding. |
Quote:
| Now sure, I could just ignore it if I wanted, but then I'm essentially getting no new content for several issues in a row, and to me, that feels like a waste of my money every month. |
Freedom: Blazing Larb, Fiery Fulcrum, Sardan Reborn, Arctic-Frenzy, Wasabi Sam, Mr Smashtastic.
Quote:
You're exactly right. The devs DON'T want everyone to get the top tier rewards. Look at how they did the set IO system. They put purple and PvP IOs in there. I've seen endless complaints on the forums from people who feel that since those IOs are in the game, that they personally are entitled to them. They're outraged that they're out of reach of the casual gamer. |
Originally Posted by Ice_Wall
Look I like the Devs, and since NCsoft took over CoH the game has grown in great ways... But looking at what it'll take to get the top tier rewards in this game.... It's exactly the reason I don't play WoW. It's like the devs don't want people to get these rewards.
|
But purples and PvP IOs are meant to be elite-level rewards for a small subset of ultra-dedicated hardcore gamers. They give the hyper-focused person something to strive for. You're in no way gimped if your build doesn't have these IOs in it.
It's the same with all the new Incarnate slots. Without exception all the top tier unlocks require crazy amounts of time investment. Some people will pursue them and will be rewarded. Most people will simply ignore them and still end up with perfectly fine Incarnate builds.
Freedom: Blazing Larb, Fiery Fulcrum, Sardan Reborn, Arctic-Frenzy, Wasabi Sam, Mr Smashtastic.
Quote:
Question: What happens when/if newer Incarnate Trials expect you to have level shifts?
|
Originally Posted by Sardan
It's the same with all the new Incarnate slots. Without exception all the top tier unlocks require crazy amounts of time investment. Some people will pursue them and will be rewarded. Most people will simply ignore them and still end up with perfectly fine Incarnate builds.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Quote:
My bet is that the devs have discussed this ad nauseum among themselves, but it'll depend on how the Incarnate stuff is received. If in the end the players don't care for it, the devs will invest resources elsewhere. If players enjoy it, my guess is that they'll continue advancing the Incarnate system until they pull the plug on the game.
|
Originally Posted by Gemini_2099
The bigger question to ask is will there will be a continuation of this end game after Omega slot?
|
Freedom: Blazing Larb, Fiery Fulcrum, Sardan Reborn, Arctic-Frenzy, Wasabi Sam, Mr Smashtastic.
Quote:
There's a trick to this question.|
Originally Posted by Sardan
My bet is that the devs have discussed this ad nauseum among themselves, but it'll depend on how the Incarnate stuff is received. If in the end the players don't care for it, the devs will invest resources elsewhere. If players enjoy it, my guess is that they'll continue advancing the Incarnate system until they pull the plug on the game.
|
People *like* the slots. Most 50's I see these days have a +1 next to their level.
Alpha was a resounding success in how to be inclusive and incentivize people to do a lot of things to advance your characters.
The next four slots (and what you can get) look really cool too. I mean, what squishy doesn't want +6 Mag Protection near perma? Massive, crashless nukes!
Except they decided that Alpha was too inclusive. Please only play two (possibly very annoying) missions over and over and over to get them.
The slots themselves are fine. Even the trials can be very fun, even if the learning curve is a bit steep and they shivved Defense in the back.
The grind is not fun.
Still here, even after all this time!
Quote:
Good question. After all, the typical gear-oriented end game goes like this: you do a task to get better gear which enables you to do a tougher task to get better gear which enables you to.... you get the idea. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Question: What happens when/if newer Incarnate Trials expect you to have level shifts?
|
So it's reasonable to expect that they will have to create content that is designed to be a challenge for players with all the then-available Incarnate slots unlocked. But having slots unlocked doesn't necessarily mean you have a specific tier within the slot equipped. Given that the Trials accept large numbers of players, I'd expect that a player would be able to perform just fine even if he didn't have the elite levels equipped.
For a while I ran several ITFs a week. They certainly went faster when there were experienced purpled-out players on the team. But a balanced team could bring along an SO'd first timer and still succeed. I expect that analogy to hold for Incarnate stuff too.
If the game had a much, much larger player population I could envision trials that were gated to only allow elite players that had the very rare slots equipped. But I can't see that ever happening in CoH; there simply won't be enough of that type of player to justify creating content playable only by them.
Freedom: Blazing Larb, Fiery Fulcrum, Sardan Reborn, Arctic-Frenzy, Wasabi Sam, Mr Smashtastic.
The only beef I have with I20 is the incarnate progression being tied to these trials. The shard -> conversion is awful and not a reasonable substitute.
I will have no trouble getting what I want from the incarnate system but I'm not so mypoic that I cannot spot a flaw in a system that is otherwise fantastic.
I will freely admit that I enjoy the trials so far. I've only been on 3 and have yet to make any meaningful progress due to being kicked all 3 times but at least it's really cool. I LOVE the wide open feel of the instances.
I've come to realize that my main/namesake character and one other will probably be the only characters out of 30 that will make any progress in the Incarnate system pass Alpha. I just don't have the free time to devote to this game.
Keep up the good work Devs but you should give the players more options (a la Alpha) in terms of obtianing incarnate slots/components.
Quote:
Agreed. But this will change in time. More content is on the way. Upthread someone noted that they've previewed an additional two Trials to some folks in the media.
|
Originally Posted by Futurias
Except they decided that Alpha was too inclusive. Please only play two (possibly very annoying) missions over and over and over to get them.
The slots themselves are fine. Even the trials can be very fun, even if the learning curve is a bit steep and they shivved Defense in the back. The grind is not fun. |
Freedom: Blazing Larb, Fiery Fulcrum, Sardan Reborn, Arctic-Frenzy, Wasabi Sam, Mr Smashtastic.
Quote:
saying 'they will fix it for the next four slots' doesn't change the fact that it is conceptually broken now.|
Originally Posted by Sardan
Agreed. But this will change in time. More content is on the way. Upthread someone noted that they've previewed an additional two Trials to some folks in the media.
|
And really, adding two more trials that will probably be just as annoying to learn and adapt to isn't anything near as nice as how the Alpha slotting worked out.
They had a good system and then they decided to break it to force people to play their new content.
They'll probably data-mine to show how many people are playing (not failing and rage-quitting) and go 'we succeeded! Yay! Let's do more!'
It's like the bus system in my area that forced all the buses to transfer through the light rail and then celebrated that they improved things because so many people were using the light rail... and everyone riding the bus ended up taking 30% to 50% longer to get anywhere.
Still here, even after all this time!
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by The_Hegemon
First, I think many of the replies suggesting that the content will become easier over time as new tactics disperse throughout the PuG hivemind and new boosts fall into the hands of Incarnate characters are spot on. We know from experience (ITF, STF, LGTF, etc.) that this is true.
... What irritates me most about I20 is the tunnel-vision focus on the trials as the sole source of Incarnate advancement. Yes, it's a grind. If you want to advance in the system, you need to farm the hell out of these trials. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Clouded
The only beef I have with I20 is the incarnate progression being tied to these trials. The shard -> conversion is awful and not a reasonable substitute.
Keep up the good work Devs but you should give the players more options (a la Alpha) in terms of obtianing incarnate slots/components. |
However the fact is that, currently, the most reasonable and practical way to gain Incarnate XP ('gaining IXP' being the only method of unlocking the new powers) is through these two trials. No one can say it is the only way to gain it, but taking the conversion route is akin to a level 35 hoofing it through Eden, without any travel powers, from the Brickstown gate to the 'Hive' gate: you'll get there eventually, and probably unscathed (more or less) but it is a much longer, winding road and by the time you get there, the Hamidon raid is probably nearly over.
It has been made clear, both in-game and externally, that becoming an Incarnate is not supposed to be easy nor fast. But to set a precedent with the Alpha slot, where the necessary materials are achievable over a number of different methods, and then narrow it down to one trial per two new power slots simply feels like a step backward. No crying 'doom' here, just wondering what the logic was behind it.
@Winter. Because I'm Winter. Period.
I am a blaster first, and an alt-oholic second.
Quote:
I have been wondering this since i20 was announced, and as of yet we have had no developer response on the matter.
|
Originally Posted by Winterminal
It has been made clear, both in-game and externally, that becoming an Incarnate is not supposed to be easy nor fast. But to set a precedent with the Alpha slot, where the necessary materials are achievable over a number of different methods, and then narrow it down to one trial per two new power slots simply feels like a step backward. No crying 'doom' here, just wondering what the logic was behind it.
|
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
Quote:
The reason I focus on level shifts specifically is because they make a very large difference, in part thanks to the purple patch and in part thanks to how large a role the level difference plays in creating challenge. Granted, level shifts aren't the only thing, but they are a major factor.|
Originally Posted by Sardan
Good question. After all, the typical gear-oriented end game goes like this: you do a task to get better gear which enables you to do a tougher task to get better gear which enables you to.... you get the idea.
So it's reasonable to expect that they will have to create content that is designed to be a challenge for players with all the then-available Incarnate slots unlocked. But having slots unlocked doesn't necessarily mean you have a specific tier within the slot equipped. Given that the Trials accept large numbers of players, I'd expect that a player would be able to perform just fine even if he didn't have the elite levels equipped. |
Moreover, the real reason I bring them up is because they make a difference. The gulf of performance between those with just Common Incarnate powers and those with Very Rare Incarnate powers is very wide, and this is by design - those are big rewards that should make a difference. You end up with a situation that balancing content for the Commons makes it trivial for the Very Rares, and balancing content for the Very Rares makes it untenable for the Commons.
The Incarnate system - whether it is "like" the raid grind of other games or not - seems mostly geared towards large time sinks with large rewards at the end, and said large rewards create a very steep power creep. I genuinely worry about what will become of these trials once the expectation is held that everyone will have at least a couple of level shifts. Sure, older Trials will not be made harder, but what of newer ones? What comes after Cole?
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Quote:
I think you have to consider the Incarnate system as very much a work in progress.|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Quote:
|
Clearly they are building up the Incarnate system over multiple Issues. It's quite likely that the current state of the game, where we arguably have an Incarnate content bottleneck, is only going to exist until the next brick in the Incarnate building is laid. I simply suspect we will eventually have more ways to get Threads than we do now.
We just have to be content with the "unfinished" game until Issue 20.5 or greater. *shrugs*
Loth 50 Fire/Rad Controller [1392 Badges] [300 non-AE Souvenirs]
Ryver 50 Ele� Blaster [1392 Badges]
Silandra 50 Peacebringer [1138 Badges] [No Redside Badges]
--{=====> Virtue ♀
Quote:
This. A lot of people seem to be acting as if the current state of the system is the final, intended state. There's more to come.
|
Originally Posted by Lothic
I think you have to consider the Incarnate system as very much a work in progress.
Clearly they are building up the Incarnate system over multiple Issues. It's quite likely that the current state of the game, where we arguably have an Incarnate content bottleneck, is only going to exist until the next brick in the Incarnate building is laid. I simply suspect we will eventually have more ways to get Threads than we do now. We just have to be content with the "unfinished" game until Issue 20.5 or greater. *shrugs* |
Furio--Lvl 50+3 Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster, Virtue
Megadeth--Lvl 50+3 Necro/DM/Soul MM, Virtue
Veriandros--Lvl 50+3 Crab Soldier, Virtue
"So come and get me! I'll be waiting for ye, with a whiff of the old brimstone. I'm a grim bloody fable, with an unhappy bloody end!" Demoman, TF2
Quote:
We seem to forget that there are other characters than 50. Now I would imagine the sky's the limit (Hopefully even space). Im sure there's still a lot to do after Cole.
|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
What comes after Cole?
|
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
Quote:
Just from the ones we know are Well-touched: Reichsman, Recluse, Honoree, Imperious(?), Statesman(!?)|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
The Incarnate system - whether it is "like" the raid grind of other games or not - seems mostly geared towards large time sinks with large rewards at the end, and said large rewards create a very steep power creep. I genuinely worry about what will become of these trials once the expectation is held that everyone will have at least a couple of level shifts. Sure, older Trials will not be made harder, but what of newer ones? What comes after Cole?
|
And then there's Rularuu and our ol' pal Hamidon and Hro'Dhotz can't be happy with all this magic flying around and neither can Malta and Nemesis is probably feeling like a kid in a candy store and Requiem and Arakhn can't be happy there's power greater than the Nictus out there and we don't know who's behind the anti-Ouroboros faction and who knows if Romulus is truly dead and...
Blood Widow Ricki * Tide Shifter * T-34 * Opposite Reaction * Shaolin Midnight * ChernobylCheerleader
Quote:
I disagree. |
Originally Posted by Furio
This. A lot of people seem to be acting as if the current state of the system is the final, intended state. There's more to come.
|
I see people providing feedback on the incarnate system as implemented and released in Issue 20.
Quote:
30 mins. is a "large time sink?"
|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
The Incarnate system - whether it is "like" the raid grind of other games or not - seems mostly geared towards large time sinks with large rewards at the end, and said large rewards create a very steep power creep. I genuinely worry about what will become of these trials once the expectation is held that everyone will have at least a couple of level shifts. Sure, older Trials will not be made harder, but what of newer ones? What comes after Cole?
|
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Quote:
Please provide proof all raids take 30 minutes max?
|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
30 mins. is a "large time sink?"
|
Quote:
No, I mean in terms of Incarnate progression.|
Originally Posted by Anti_Proton
We seem to forget that there are other characters than 50. Now I would imagine the sky's the limit (Hopefully even space). Im sure there's still a lot to do after Cole.
|
I trust we can all agree that tying the entirety of the Incarnate system to Emperor Marcus Cole and nothing else ever would be a bad move. Sooner or later we'll have to grow past his threat, and so I ask what comes next.
My point was more pragmatic, however - as we progress down the Incarnate slots and tiers, we become stronger. Intelligent game design would have to anticipate this and make the encounters harder to compensate, but the question is by how much? As the gulf between top-tier powers plus level shifts and bottom-tier powers or, worst still, empty slots is vast, where would balance fall? Where should it fall?
I harken back to Inventions. Inventions, they said, would not change the existing game, meaning that the game would not be rebalanced to expect people to use them. No-one ever claimed that NEW content won't be made that assumed you had those, and Incarnate Trials strongly suggest that this time is coming, if it hasn't come already. Sooner or later we'll have to ask ourselves the question: Do we balance new content based on top-tier power? And considering what the overall point of the Incarnate system seems to be, I'm inclined to expect they'll tend towards a "yes," or at the very least "maybe."
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.