The I20 Incarnates Grind: Am I Missing the Point of Resurrecting My 50?
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2011-04-05 17:51 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Quote:
Had shards been in from day one - some of these alts have been 50 since issue 4 - they would have by now. Most have not seen 400 million in their entire existence.
|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
I reiterate my point: Have any of these alts also earned thousands of shards?
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
But raid content requires large communities of players who can coordinate with each other. CoH is full of casual players. We live on PUGs. This new content is disaster for PUGs and thus inaccessible to casual players.
To make things worse, they helpfully gave us a queue to form PUGs for the trials, which is the same as helpfully building a chute to show cattle the route into the slaughterhouse. You'd think that if you were given a system to randomly group people together for content, the content would be the sort that random people could handle. But...no. This is just stunningly bad design. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Want to highlight this.
When I run the ITF (for instance) for the third or fourth time, it's because I felt like "Hey, I'd like to do so." Yes, I get some people like grinding it over and over for badges or whatnot, but there's nothing about the ITF that, in and of itself, is designed around that grind. There's no "You must repeat the ITF (and have a good chance at failing) to be able to deal with the ITF with a chance of success." And there's no hint that "Finish the ITF successfully and build up your power, because future content will need you to be a successful, built-up ITF Runner!" Repeat because it's fun, repeating on an "as I feel like it" basis? Great. Repeat to get gear to repeat and do better to get required gear to repeat to do better? Not fun. |
This issue is pretty much a non-issue for me. But I'm also afraid that if I don't push at least one of my alts through it, I will not be getting much out of future issues. I'm going back to low level alts for now, waiting to see if the next 2-3 issues have something non-Incarnate for me to do that's new - but I'm not holding my breath expecting it to happen.
Altoholic - but a Blaster at Heart!
Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
"You gave us a world where we could fly. I can't thank you enough for that."
Quote:
City of Heroes has never been the kind of game that is designed for that sort of people though. It's never been the raid/grind style of MMO. It's always been much more casual. That's always been a big part of its identity, and I don't really think that changing that is a good thing. Do we really want to play in another WoW clone?|
Originally Posted by Defenestrator
Right. Which is why my server has seen a number of veteran players who had been missing from the game (some for as long as a couple of years) resubscribe. But other than that, you're right. There's nothing new here for old players with lots of level 50s.
Remember, just because YOU don't like something, it doesn't mean the whole world shares your taste. Adding tintable colors to the few powers that currently don't have it would be nice, but it's seriously not going to retain subscriptions. "Oooo...my controller can now have a green fireball. I'd better stay in the game!" The Lambda Sector and BAF are the type of end game content other MMOs have, but from my experience they are MUCH more friendly to casual players that EQ or WoW-style raids. I remember a Plane of Hate raid in EQ that lasted well over 10 hours. TEN HOURS! And that was with an experience group that knew how to raid the zone. Believe it or not, yes, there are people who want this type of stuff in the game. |
In the end though, I think my biggest problem with the new Incarnate content is that it's required. It's pretty clear that if I want to participate in the majority of content coming out in the near future, I'm required to participate in the grinding. The Apex and Tin Mage TFs were a taste of that, with the requirement that you had to have your alpha slotted or have a -4 level shift applied. And we've already been told that future content will feature things like level 54+2 enemies, so we'll need to have the level shifts to take part.
Now sure, I could just ignore it if I wanted, but then I'm essentially getting no new content for several issues in a row, and to me, that feels like a waste of my money every month.
tl;dr version: Voluntary raid content okay. Required raid content a big no no.
Quote:
Well, it's not *good* game design, I'd say.|
Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
And if I don't have a regular group, then you're saying that I should never expect to succeed.
That's a bad game design. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Had shards been in from day one - some of these alts have been 50 since issue 4 - they would have by now. Most have not seen 400 million in their entire existence.
|
I've been saying for weeks that this reward *SYSTEM* for i20 is totally messed up.
They should not have introduced another money system on top of Shards. Threads should have just replaced Shards. Weekly Strike Targets should reward you with a Emperyum (SP?) merit for threads. All level 50 TF/SF/Trials should have specific Thread common components. Apex and Tin Mage II should allows you to earn a small amount of iXP per successful completion and give you a minimum of 10 threads.
These sort of things *start* to fix the problems with i20 and change it from super-grindfest to a more user-friendly and PUG friendly advancement system.
Still here, even after all this time!
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Futurias
Well, it's not *good* game design, I'd say.
The shard to thread conversion is just stupid anyways. Everything costs five *times* the amount that Alpha costs in shards. It's stupidly expensive (and I don't use the term lightly.) I've been saying for weeks that this reward *SYSTEM* for i20 is totally messed up. They should not have introduced another money system on top of Shards. Threads should have just replaced Shards. Weekly Strike Targets should reward you with a Emperyum (SP?) merit for threads. All level 50 TF/SF/Trials should have specific Thread common components. Apex and Tin Mage II should allows you to earn a small amount of iXP per successful completion and give you a minimum of 10 threads. These sort of things *start* to fix the problems with i20 and change it from super-grindfest to a more user-friendly and PUG friendly advancement system. |
Two points:
1) Its not just the shard/thread conversion costs which are a problem. Its the expectation that while you're spending money on that, you're limited supply of money is also competing with what's required to buy anything in Fort Trident or The Crucible (at least where purple recipes and whatever other high-end items are concerned).
The game's logic assumes *everyone* has the same amount of many that a fraction of the "professional farming/trading" player base has because they're always recycling content. Someone in this very thread mentioned the idiot-proof reliance on using the auction house to make money - but they forget that the entire trading system was meant to be an optional gameplay system. Not everyone uses it - and not everyone makes money off it. And not everyone knows that the damn market is borked to hell and back (and they inevitably lose big money on it because they bought an overpriced item that might well have gotten cheaper if they'd just checked the base rack or run a couple missions to get the drop for free).
2) The introduction of Incarnate XP and these constant +1 bumps that are a level game but yet aren't a level are the product of rushed game design. iXP and having to earn percentages of a slot says, contrary to everything Positron and anyone else has said in years past, that this game could easily have raised the level cap to 55 or 60.
The only reason it wasn't done that way was because they couldn't spit out enough solo content fast enough to justify keeping the leveling wheel that currently guides us all from lvl 1 to 50 for another 5-10 levels. If the Devs had been a bit more forward-thinking with their design goals, they would've kept the leveling wheel system and put the content emphasis back on Ourborous where folks could justifiably recycle content from years past but on on higher difficulty settings (ie, rather than exemping down, the game would recognize you were an Incarnate and load the instance with Incarnate-worthy NPC upgrades worthy of making you or a team sweat like mad just to get your Incarnate salvage).
Instead, the Devs tagged on a whole and completely separate "COH mini game" to a game system they've had for years and the two systems are working to drive the player base apart rather thank keep it together. THAT'S the biggest design flaw this game has seen in 7 years - outside of any complaints about the two new Incarnate trials we see in I20.
If playing COH has taught me anything after 7 years, its that creating and leveling a toon is a very organic and player-intimate process. There was no need to create a separate "End Game" system for post-50 incarnates when there's tons of pre-50 content (Zones, Missions, Contacts) sitting cold and idle because everyone and their mother can now get a toon from 1 - 50 in a matter of days and is bypassing everything that's come before like mad (and new players who've recently leveled a toon to 50 without ever setting foot in Eden, Dark Astoria or Crey's Folly will know *exactly* what I mean - and who wouldn't want to farm Incarnate content in a hazard zone if that were possible?!!).
Devs, I beg you: please reconsider your current Incarnate design plan to include the long-idle assets you already have at your finger tips - they're called Ouroborous and Hazard Zones and they're waiting to be retooled for Incarnates...
Good luck!
Quote:
This. I've stated it multiple times over a couple different threads in a couple different forums: there are things already in this game that had a lot of potential when they were input, and still carry that potential, but have been left untouched. |
Originally Posted by Rubberlad
Devs, I beg you: please reconsider your current Incarnate design plan to include the long-idle assets you already have at your finger tips - they're called Ouroborous and Hazard Zones and they're waiting to be retooled for Incarnates...
Good luck! |
I also loved your idea of how Ouroboros could be used. Maybe in the future? We can hope.
@Winter. Because I'm Winter. Period.
I am a blaster first, and an alt-oholic second.
Quote:
Ouroboros is a key part of the Coming Storm, so I'm pretty sure we'll get some Incarnate Trials focusing on it.
|
Originally Posted by Winterminal
I also loved your idea of how Ouroboros could be used. Maybe in the future? We can hope.
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
Which has caused my interest in this thing to drop to zero. Maybe less. When it was announced, I was under the impression that we got to be Incarnates like Statesman or Recluse. Not that we got to be Incarnates only when in Praetoria. Which sucks, frankly. I wanted to solo a giant monster with my sweet, sweet Incarnatedness. Instead I get one-shotted by a robot minion. Do I feel like an Incarnate with awesome primal/cosmic power on par with Statesman? No, I feel like a level 1 noob getting spanked by Clockwork all over again.|
Originally Posted by UberRod
Except the extra 2 level shifts only work in the incarnate trials, not in the rest of the game.
|
Edit: typo
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
Quote:
10 times for the very rare? How so? It takes 30 empyrean merits OR 400 Million and 100 Threads to get a very rare salvage, which you need for the very rare merits. |
Originally Posted by Dr_Mechano
I will admit the system looks ridiculously grindy primarily for one thing which I absolutely despise.
The luck based table reward system. Basically if you're unlucky you have to grind your backside off to get the very rare and play the 2 trials an ungodly number of times, if you're lucky you probably have to play the trial 10 times at most to unlock the very rare. The Alpha system was pretty much fair for everybody who could run the same content, yes Shards were a bit random but not to the level of the trial reward table |
Seems to me it'll take at least 30 runs of these 2 trials to get 1 very rare. Assuming your not made of cash.
This is the sticking point for me. You can only get one Empyrean merit per trial (unless I missed something) which you can only get once ever 18 hours per trial (Again unless I missed something.) And it takes 30 empyrean merits to get the very rare. So if you want a very rare in all 4 slots, then you're going to play 120 trials....
Look I like the Devs, and since NCsoft took over CoH the game has grown in great ways... But looking at what it'll take to get the top tier rewards in this game.... It's exactly the reason I don't play WoW. It's like the devs don't want people to get these rewards. I mean damn... 120 Empyrean merits just to get the four pieces of Very Rare salvage for the very Rare Boosts, per character. Not counting all the runs you need to get the basic stuff...
Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I'm coming to the conclusion that Either I'm missing something big (or several somethings big) or that the Devs really missed the boat on this one...
"Where does he get those wonderful toys?" - The Joker
Enjoying the raids. Wanting m0ar. That is all.
<:[ shark goes nom nom nom ]:>
[QUOTE=theOcho;3409811]As to the REAL reason I'll be leaving, I'm afraid it is indeed because Tamaki Revolution dc'd on me during a RSF.[/QUOTE]
I did some math
Tier 1 Boost = 3 Common Salvage = 60 Threads (20 threads each)
Tier 1 Total = 60 Threads
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Tier 2 Boost = 2 Common Salvage = 40 Threads
+1 Uncommon Salvage = 60 Threads
Tier 2 Total = 100 Threads
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Tier 3 Boost = 2 Common Salvage = 40 Threads
+ 1 Rare Salvage = 100 Threads
+ 4 uncommon salvage (60x4= 240 Threads)
OR 8 Empyrean merits
Tier 3 Total = 380 threads
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Tier 4 Boost = 2 Common Salvage = 40 Threads
+ 2 Rare Boosts = 760 Threads (380x2)
+ 1 Very Rare Salvage = 4 Rare Salvage (380x4= 1520 Threads)
+ 400 Million INF
OR 30 Empyrean Merits
Tier 4 Total = 2,320 Threads (with the option to add 400M Inf to the price.)
Thats per boost. So if you want 1 Very rare boost in each new slot, (ignoring for the moment the devs claim that you can switch different boosts in and out.) It'll be 9,280 threads +/-1.6 billion inf.
Now of course you can get some lucky drops, maybe you even get a couple very rare salvages some how (and incredibly lucky I might add, not sure what the drop rate is but that saves you a ton of time.) But seriously, this is insane. CoH has always been for the casual MMO fan, one of the reasons I and I'm sure many others like it so much.
Now the Devs seem to be going in the hardcore direction, because this is insane. I had 7 level 50s I wanted to make incarnate. I don't see that happening. If this endgame is supposed to revive my interest in my level 50s, it's not. It's making me not want to play them. It'd be one thing if I could earn these threads and drops across all level 50 content, like shards, but you can't it's only in these 2 trials... That's absolutely insane. At this point, Unless I want to grind these trials into the ground, there's no point.
I've never been this disappointed by an issue. Honestly the whole build up for the incarnate thing, and now it's come down to this : Be prepared to grind the new content into the ground, because that's what you'll need to do.
The thing is, the new trials are cool, but they aren't that cool, and compared to how little the reward is, they aren't worth it. Honestly, considering how many people have alts and all that to work on.... I'm just amazed the Devs wanted it this way, and amazed that they thought this was a good idea.
If they wanted to make it this hard to earn ,they needed to release more content with it, or fewer slots. It wouldn't seem so bad if it were just Interface and Judgement, but c'mon, these 2 trials are supposed to carry us through 4 of these boosts?
I mean hell, the Alpha slot was grindy for 1 slot with 6 TFs to run for it. Now it's 4 slots and 2 TFs to run for it... Ick....
I don't know what to say, but my girlfriend didn't believe me when she got home tonight and heard me say for the first time, that I'm dissappointed in an issue...
For what ever little it's worth, she's a casual player, and though she hasn't had a lot of time recently she's been interested in getting back into it and checking the incarnate stuff out.. then I told her tonight about what it takes get these rewards and she's already turned off by it...
So it seems for now, Incarnate is for hardcore only, and I'm probably going to very soon put my 50s back on the shelf. I can't see me wanting to grind out 15 of each of these just to get the Tier 4 boost on one of these slots.
I really think the Devs would make this issue much more enjoyable to most people if they chopped these requirements in half at least.
"Where does he get those wonderful toys?" - The Joker
Quote:
Did you IO your characters in a day? Just walked into Issue 9, purples fell from the sky and you slotted them. |
Originally Posted by Ice_Wall
Look I like the Devs, and since NCsoft took over CoH the game has grown in great ways... But looking at what it'll take to get the top tier rewards in this game.... It's exactly the reason I don't play WoW.
|
Did you get to 50 in a day?
Quote:
| Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I'm coming to the conclusion that Either I'm missing something big (or several somethings big) or that the Devs really missed the boat on this one... |
Quote:
My wife is the same way. She just doesn't see a point in playing now. |
Originally Posted by Ice_Wall
I don't know what to say, but my girlfriend didn't believe me when she got home tonight and heard me say for the first time, that I'm dissappointed in an issue...
For what ever little it's worth, she's a casual player, and though she hasn't had a lot of time recently she's been interested in getting back into it and checking the incarnate stuff out.. then I told her tonight about what it takes get these rewards and she's already turned off by it... |
I20 seems to be a great issue if you have a preset group of friends. Not so much for others, as the queue seems pretty useless on Guardian, Triumph or Liberty. If they can get the queue to function cross-server, that would help tons. The only way I can get in a raid is from server channels. And those always wait until completely full, so no queue members can get in.
Quote:
The major difference with the incarnate system is that it's not as voluntary as those were. |
Originally Posted by brophog02
Did you IO your characters in a day? Just walked into Issue 9, purples fell from the sky and you slotted them.
Did you get to 50 in a day? Have you considered that you, and others that present this argument, may have missed this one? That perhaps you're (for some reason) treating the incarnate powers differently than you treated general leveling and enhancements? |
When the level cap changed from 40 to 50, the devs didn't spend several issues making only level 40-50 content.
When the Invention system came out, the devs didn't spend several issues making content that could only be played by people who had purples slotted.
With the incarnate system, the devs ARE going to spend the next several issues making (mostly) content that you have to have incarnate abilities to participate in. Or at least that's the impression we've been given.
Quote:
It might help if you honestly described the issue to her. First off, everyone counts up the thread only cost of the very rares in each slot and then proclaims DOOM! Ignoring that in the process of earning those threads you'll be earning Empyrean merits and Astral Merits and direct components which shorten the process considerably. For example, in my first two successes I got a very rare and a rare. Now, of course, that's very lucky and I don't expect that all the time, but those two drops have literally removed hundreds of threads from your total above. |
Originally Posted by Ice_Wall
For what ever little it's worth, she's a casual player, and though she hasn't had a lot of time recently she's been interested in getting back into it and checking the incarnate stuff out.. then I told her tonight about what it takes get these rewards and she's already turned off by it...
So it seems for now, Incarnate is for hardcore only, and I'm probably going to very soon put my 50s back on the shelf. I can't see me wanting to grind out 15 of each of these just to get the Tier 4 boost on one of these slots. I really think the Devs would make this issue much more enjoyable to most people if they chopped these requirements in half at least. |
Adding to that, everyone focuses on the very rare powers without an appreciation of the fact that the very rares are intended to be a long term goal. Further, none of those slots offer really major advantages over their rare counterparts. Getting to rares isn't nearly as difficult as its made out to me and that gets you 75%-85% of the power of that slot.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Quote:
Aren't 50% of the tasks in this issue for non-incarnates? How does that constitute 'mostly'?
|
Originally Posted by firespray
With the incarnate system, the devs ARE going to spend the next several issues making (mostly) content that you have to have incarnate abilities to participate in. Or at least that's the impression we've been given.
|
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Quote:
mostly tunnel vision lol
|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Aren't 50% of the tasks in this issue for non-incarnates? How does that constitute 'mostly'?
|
Quote:
The bigger question to ask is will there will be a continuation of this end game after Omega slot?
|
Originally Posted by firespray
The major difference with the incarnate system is that it's not as voluntary as those were.
When the level cap changed from 40 to 50, the devs didn't spend several issues making only level 40-50 content. When the Invention system came out, the devs didn't spend several issues making content that could only be played by people who had purples slotted. With the incarnate system, the devs ARE going to spend the next several issues making (mostly) content that you have to have incarnate abilities to participate in. Or at least that's the impression we've been given. |
Honestly, while I don't mind the CoH or the BAF in and of themselves, I feel that the choice of falling back to raid content has effectively limited player's options as to how they advance.
1-50 there are multiple avenues of advancement.
With the Alpha, there's still multiple avenues, but it's more limited.
With Post-Alpha advancement you effectively have ONE path (grind). Period. Sure, you can choose your grind (run the new trials over and over (and over and over) again, OR grind out shards and pay to up-convert them to threads). But in the end, the final solution still distills down to "just grind".
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
Quote:
Good post, and let me also say this was determined in beta by many others. Grinding for shards isn't a reasonable alternative.|
Originally Posted by Ice_Wall
I did some math
Tier 1 Boost = 3 Common Salvage = 60 Threads (20 threads each) Tier 1 Total = 60 Threads ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tier 2 Boost = 2 Common Salvage = 40 Threads +1 Uncommon Salvage = 60 Threads Tier 2 Total = 100 Threads --------------------------------------------------------------------- Tier 3 Boost = 2 Common Salvage = 40 Threads + 1 Rare Salvage = 100 Threads + 4 uncommon salvage (60x4= 240 Threads) OR 8 Empyrean merits Tier 3 Total = 380 threads --------------------------------------------------------------------- Tier 4 Boost = 2 Common Salvage = 40 Threads + 2 Rare Boosts = 760 Threads (380x2) + 1 Very Rare Salvage = 4 Rare Salvage (380x4= 1520 Threads) + 400 Million INF OR 30 Empyrean Merits Tier 4 Total = 2,320 Threads (with the option to add 400M Inf to the price.) Thats per boost. So if you want 1 Very rare boost in each new slot, (ignoring for the moment the devs claim that you can switch different boosts in and out.) It'll be 9,280 threads +/-1.6 billion inf. Now of course you can get some lucky drops, maybe you even get a couple very rare salvages some how (and incredibly lucky I might add, not sure what the drop rate is but that saves you a ton of time.) But seriously, this is insane. CoH has always been for the casual MMO fan, one of the reasons I and I'm sure many others like it so much. Now the Devs seem to be going in the hardcore direction, because this is insane. I had 7 level 50s I wanted to make incarnate. I don't see that happening. If this endgame is supposed to revive my interest in my level 50s, it's not. It's making me not want to play them. It'd be one thing if I could earn these threads and drops across all level 50 content, like shards, but you can't it's only in these 2 trials... That's absolutely insane. At this point, Unless I want to grind these trials into the ground, there's no point. I've never been this disappointed by an issue. Honestly the whole build up for the incarnate thing, and now it's come down to this : Be prepared to grind the new content into the ground, because that's what you'll need to do. The thing is, the new trials are cool, but they aren't that cool, and compared to how little the reward is, they aren't worth it. Honestly, considering how many people have alts and all that to work on.... I'm just amazed the Devs wanted it this way, and amazed that they thought this was a good idea. If they wanted to make it this hard to earn ,they needed to release more content with it, or fewer slots. It wouldn't seem so bad if it were just Interface and Judgement, but c'mon, these 2 trials are supposed to carry us through 4 of these boosts? I mean hell, the Alpha slot was grindy for 1 slot with 6 TFs to run for it. Now it's 4 slots and 2 TFs to run for it... Ick.... I don't know what to say, but my girlfriend didn't believe me when she got home tonight and heard me say for the first time, that I'm dissappointed in an issue... For what ever little it's worth, she's a casual player, and though she hasn't had a lot of time recently she's been interested in getting back into it and checking the incarnate stuff out.. then I told her tonight about what it takes get these rewards and she's already turned off by it... So it seems for now, Incarnate is for hardcore only, and I'm probably going to very soon put my 50s back on the shelf. I can't see me wanting to grind out 15 of each of these just to get the Tier 4 boost on one of these slots. I really think the Devs would make this issue much more enjoyable to most people if they chopped these requirements in half at least. |
That is like saying a pure natural build 1-50 is reasonable.
You can still advance by doing pretty much any content and converting the shards to threads. (It's slower, yes, but it means you advance even when doing other content than the iTrials)
Remember, the time-gated conversion is pretty good.
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
I think the point is that it's not really balanced for the extremes (people who grind until their eyes bleed to be first with the new content, or people who refuse to do the new content) it's balanced for people who do a trial now and then but would still like to advance while doing other stuff.
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
Quote:
There is a big divide.|
Originally Posted by Arilou
You can still advance by doing pretty much any content and converting the shards to threads. (It's slower, yes, but it means you advance even when doing other content than the iTrials)
Remember, the time-gated conversion is pretty good. |
You could slowly advance for the alpha slot in a reasonable time frame. The conversion of shards to threads isn't reasonable by any means.
Quote:
It is when it's supplemented by an occasional trial.
|
Originally Posted by Gemini_2099
There is a big divide.
You could slowly advance for the alpha slot in a reasonable time frame. The conversion of shards to threads isn't reasonable by any means. |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
That's a bad game design.
...
New Webcomic -- Genocide Man
Life is funny. Death is funnier. Mass slaughter can be hilarious.