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Can we get a mod in here to lock this thread and delete ever other post but Amy_Amps?|
Originally Posted by Amy_Amp
I have to say. I have been around since just before i5 and I'm absolutely stunned that somebody would start a thread the day an issue hits complaining how the devs have wrecked the game. Stunned I tell you. I swear it's like it's never happened before. Oh wait...
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Please?
Ohh DOOOOOOOMMMMMmmmmmm!!!!!!.....dooom.
Bots/Traps Guide for I19.5
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Venture has crystallized the problem perfectly. If you wouldn't play the encounter if you didn't get any rewards other than the time invested, then it's badly designed. I'm leaning toward the latter attitude on these Incarnate trials. I don't play Sudoku to be the fastest or Spider Solitaire to have the highest rank, I play those games purely because I enjoy the activity. There are a lot of missions in CoH that strike that same chord for me. These trials don't.
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Originally Posted by Venture
"Progress" is not the issue. There is no "progress". What I actually get out of any City activity is what I get out of, say, streaming eps of Battlestar Galactica off NetFlix, which is mostly what I'm doing with what used to be gaming time these days (it doesn't really stand up well on a second viewing but that's another forum). That is entertainment. The virtual (i.e. fake) shineys aren't important. What matters is whether or the experience (not the XP, the experience) is any fun. Turns out, most people don't find being blasted into minestrone every few seconds to be fun. Go figure.
So, how many times would you run Lambda/BAF if you didn't get shineys for doing so? Based on what's being said here I suspect for most players the answer is "zero". And that's what you need to know to tell if they're well-designed or not. |
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
Quote:
I only play the stuff I find fun |
Originally Posted by Ironik
Venture has crystallized the problem perfectly. If you wouldn't play the encounter if you didn't get any rewards other than the time invested, then it's badly designed. I'm leaning toward the latter attitude on these Incarnate trials. I don't play Sudoku to be the fastest or Spider Solitaire to have the highest rank, I play those games purely because I enjoy the activity. There are a lot of missions in CoH that strike that same chord for me. These trials don't.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
NOOOOB! |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
I only play the stuff I find fun
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Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
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Give it a week or two when people start slotting the Rares in Destiny and Lore to get the incarnate shifts.. Suddenly these lvl 54s are only Yellow now..
Teams, all with Judgement roasting the mobs, AVs getting debuffed to hell due to attacks, Pets adding that extra little punch, and taking a few shots for you. The Destiny powers, giving all the buffs you could ever need.
I cashed in a lot of Shards, Astral Merits and turned them into Incarnate XP. I've got all 4 new Slots unlocked. Destiny will be filled up first, Lore 2nd. The incarnate shifts will be awesome!
Soon there will be 15 min Lambdas. The people who keep on complaining need to relax!
@Radmind - Justice Server
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If people don't already realise that many people are not happy with this issue because it has changed the main direction of thgis game since it was created.
It could have been implimented differantly. They could have mattered to normal gameplay, but they don't really. They appear only to work against TF's at 50 and these silly TF's that need you to grind and die...not grind or die.
It has added another level of currency, well done, not another one, in addition to the new Incarnate one in the last patch, again well done, which seems to be the yway thisz lot go. New issue, new currency to sit with the others.
City of Heroes, to me, was all about inclusion. The Super Side Kicking is, prehapse, the best feature of any game I have played, and before that the side kicking.
XP in TF's even when exemplared....brilliant.
IO's....excellent, not a loot system as such but still a loot system, nicely differant ans Superheroesvillany type.
AE...well, they were a bit nieve here, and Positron even had his mini breakdown there, and they had to announce Goin Rogue to distract everyone there, remeinded me a bit of some of the Clichequest there hehe. But they eventually nerfed...erm, rebalanced that to be correct. ( to me any change after release to reduce capability or rewards should be viewed as a nerf....alpha's and beta's are for balancing, if you release it ignoring feedback and allowing people to do stuff you just didn't thing they would use of for, it's a nerf )
Many other excellent features have been implimented to, but all had an "Inclusive" nature to it.
Now, they release something you cannot just jump into and function properly. "But don't worry in a few weeks time you can" This was never really seen in City of Heroes before. We have to actually get differnent tools to do this. We have to Grind the same 2 TFs time after time after time.
We have not had to do this before really.
Merits for IO's...all TF's, Story Arc's and when we got it, the Flashback System, all allowed even the solo player to benefit from this system.
The Alpha Slot mission was soloable or very easy to duo. That and you could get some drops to make the enhancement for your Alpha slot off any 50, but if you did TF's you got them faster.
This new direction is what is against the whole way CoX has operated in the past...apart from the seriously stupid hami.
People needed to LEARN TACTICS, NOT GET NEW POWERS AND ENHANCEMENTS BY BEEN FORCED TO RUN TASKFORCES TO GET THEM!!!!!
And not just one or 2 times, they can't run all the TF's in the game and collect a bucketload of merits. They cant go and do flashbacks solo for some merits to buy that IO recipie solo, differnat ones at that.
They now have to run the same 2 TF's time after time to unlock these till i21 and the next TF grind is wheeled out.
Sound Familiar now, well this game never had one way to get stuff really before.
Apparently they are balancing around IO's now, and appear to have balanced these 2 new TF's around that AND been decked out in the new Incarnate Abilities. Shame on them, they said they would only ever balance around SO's. This is a slippery slope. Common parts seem to be now massed to hit buffs, def debuffs, -regen and -res as part of the npc's package. It must just auto fill as they add encounters these days to any enemy.
That is what people are complaining about. End game raids are ok in most games, this game was always the haven for people to come and have fun. What they are changing this game into is not why most people who still do played this game or came back to it. If you are differantg then you must be in the wrong game as gear grinds are ----->
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They've been at it since the endgame system was first announced - yesterday they were finally destroyed |
Originally Posted by Friggin_Taser
I'm not assuming, I already know you have absolutely no clue what the playerbase as a whole cares about or finds fun. You and a few others (hi, Venture!) are abusing the empirical "we" and continue to cast YOUR opinions off as the opinions of a mysterious amount of playerbase to try to puff up your own feedback's worth.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
lol|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
They've been at it since the endgame system was first announced - yesterday they were finally destroyed
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Funny I still see people who don't find raiding fun posting their opinion.
Not much of a destruction.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
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Quote:
I meant their hopes of sabotaging any type of endgame system at all being added to the game - yesterday, the endgame system went live, and they were defeated at last |
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
lol
Funny I still see people who don't find raiding fun posting their opinion. Not much of a destruction. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
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Originally Posted by IanTheM1
So in other words, IOs ruined the game. Got it.
Still, there are better ways of countering defense than giving them an I Win Button against it. |
IOs didn't ruin the game. It's the committee that ruined the game. There's a lack of continuity and overarching vision. It's the continual pursuit of the "new shiny" and a basic inability to plan ahead. It's the "what're we gonna do now?" approach that is the big problem
Thelonious Monk
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uhhh most of the folks who gave commentry wanted a DIFFERENT type of endgame, I haven't seen anyone saying they didn't want any end game at all. As in no Incarnate system at all.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
I meant their hopes of sabotaging any type of endgame system at all being added to the game - yesterday, the endgame system went live, and they were defeated at last
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If you mean raid system, that's a different story.
Raid grind DOES NOT have to equal endgame.
EDIT: Though I don't think it's at all grindy personally.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Quote:
Yeah, that'll be tons of fun, leeching off people with level shifts and massive AoEs while I watch a slideshow. Over and over again. Yay, fun!|
Originally Posted by Radmind
Give it a week or two when people start slotting the Rares in Destiny and Lore to get the incarnate shifts.. Suddenly these lvl 54s are only Yellow now..
Teams, all with Judgement roasting the mobs, AVs getting debuffed to hell due to attacks, Pets adding that extra little punch, and taking a few shots for you. The Destiny powers, giving all the buffs you could ever need. I cashed in a lot of Shards, Astral Merits and turned them into Incarnate XP. I've got all 4 new Slots unlocked. Destiny will be filled up first, Lore 2nd. The incarnate shifts will be awesome! Soon there will be 15 min Lambdas. The people who keep on complaining need to relax! |
Except that it's, you know, not. I'd rather run with a minimum team who has no idea what the frack they're doing (but are willing to listen and cooperate) and fail miserably, rack up some iXP and threads, and then grind shards until my eyes bleed. And I'm not exactly thrilled at the prospect of grinding shards either, so you can imagine how much I look forward to leeching my way through a slideshow.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
Quote:
It's Golden Girl. What do you expect. She lives in her own reality, doing a lamprey imitation on the devs.
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
lol
Funny I still see people who don't find raiding fun posting their opinion. Not much of a destruction. |
Quote:
This is the part I don't get. Why can't I take my Incarnated-out dude over to Monster Island and beat up some giant monsters? Wouldn't that have been TOTALLY FREAKIN' AWESOME?! Of course it would. Talk about feeling superheroic... man. And it's the only thing I said I wanted out of this system when it was announced. To have the Incarnate stuff limited to the trials where you get Incarnate stuff is the very definition of the Ouroboros system and like a dog chasing its own tail seems utterly pointless to me. I want to go out into the rest of the game world and KICK SOME ***.
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Originally Posted by Battler
It could have been implimented differantly. They could have mattered to normal gameplay, but they don't really. They appear only to work against TF's at 50 and these silly TF's that need you to grind and die...not grind or die.
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The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Venture
To compare and contrast, I still go on mothership raids even though the reward isn't exactly stellar. I've taken the aforementioned Scrapper on one Apex TF and I'm never doing that again with any melee AT, not for Notices, not for anything. It was just a horrible pile of instant deaths. (It didn't help that some idiot managed to color his Rad debuffs to the same color as the insta-death patches.)
So, how many times would you run Lambda/BAF if you didn't get shineys for doing so? Based on what's being said here I suspect for most players the answer is "zero". And that's what you need to know to tell if they're well-designed or not. |
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Well that really shows a stellar attitude, right here. "I failed once, I'm never trying that again. I don't care to analyze why I failed or try new tactics. I'm going to blame the design and be done with it."
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Actually its a realistic attitude. Why in God's name would anyone repeat anything they don't find fun?
That's just . . . strange. |
I reckon I should start this off with a story:
When I was a boy (as in, 5-6 years old), I started taking fencing lessons. They gave me a foil, and I didn't care for it much; the rules were strict, I detested right-of-way, and my Meister was a mean ol' German ******* who would smack you on the back of the thighs with the flat of an epee' blade if your recover wasn't fast enough, among other meanie things.
I hated each lesson with him, but I refused to give up, because I saw what you could do if you learned...
A few years and I switched to sabre. Still right of way, but a larger area to strike and an edge! Not just thrusty-pokey-stab-stab anymore. It was AWESOME! I practiced all the time and even though my instructor was STILL a footlong knob on a stick, I didn't care because I got better and stronger and faster and I started gaining victories.
Now, I am old, and have bad knees and a bad hip, but I guarantee you when the Zombie-Pocalypse comes I'll be just fine with my trusty antique cavalry sabre whilst the vast majority of my human brethren will become undead Hors d'oeuvres. And, as much as it pains me to admit it, the very un-"rainbows & flowers" method of teaching I was subjected to made me a better swordsman and far less likely to complain when other things in life were less than exemplary.
Extremely long story short, painful lessons will, usually, stay with you for life. Sometimes you need a harsh experience to A) appreciate what you have, where you came from and where you are and B) understand what you need to do to get where you want to go.
And to counter an unvoiced (but almost certainly thought about) argument that your money allows you to expect a certain level of service, I say this.
When I was studying at a MA studio about 25 years ago (this time stateside), the sensei had everyone take a few minutes at the beginning and end of class to police the dojo and prepare for class. One of the more whiny dudes present said to me "you know, when I go eat at a restaurant, I don't pay for the meal and then bus the table myself."
He didn't get it, and he didn't last.
If you don't want to play the Incarnate Trials, then don't. There is so much content, you will be fine. The new Sutter and Kal TF/SFs are awesome, and you should have no trouble enjoying other aspects of the game.
Most of all, I just want folks to continue to patronize this, by far the best of the hero-style MMOs (and one of the best MMOs, period.).
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I think that's a first. Someone arguing that things were better when Jack was in charge.
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Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
IOs didn't ruin the game. It's the committee that ruined the game. There's a lack of continuity and overarching vision. It's the continual pursuit of the "new shiny" and a basic inability to plan ahead. It's the "what're we gonna do now?" approach that is the big problem
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Quote:
Boy-howdy did YOU ever miss the point.
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Originally Posted by BeornAgain
This here's what y'all would call a TL/DR situation but here goes...
I reckon I should start this off with a story: When I was a boy (as in, 5-6 years old), I started taking fencing lessons. They gave me a foil, and I didn't care for it much; the rules were strict, I detested right-of-way, and my Meister was a mean ol' German ******* who would smack you on the back of the thighs with the flat of an epee' blade if your recover wasn't fast enough, among other meanie things. I hated each lesson with him, but I refused to give up, because I saw what you could do if you learned... A few years and I switched to sabre. Still right of way, but a larger area to strike and an edge! Not just thrusty-pokey-stab-stab anymore. It was AWESOME! I practiced all the time and even though my instructor was STILL a footlong knob on a stick, I didn't care because I got better and stronger and faster and I started gaining victories. Now, I am old, and have bad knees and a bad hip, but I guarantee you when the Zombie-Pocalypse comes I'll be just fine with my trusty antique cavalry sabre whilst the vast majority of my human brethren will become undead Hors d'oeuvres. And, as much as it pains me to admit it, the very un-"rainbows & flowers" method of teaching I was subjected to made me a better swordsman and far less likely to complain when other things in life were less than exemplary. Extremely long story short, painful lessons will, usually, stay with you for life. Sometimes you need a harsh experience to A) appreciate what you have, where you came from and where you are and B) understand what you need to do to get where you want to go. And to counter an unvoiced (but almost certainly thought about) argument that your money allows you to expect a certain level of service, I say this. When I was studying at a MA studio about 25 years ago (this time stateside), the sensei had everyone take a few minutes at the beginning and end of class to police the dojo and prepare for class. One of the more whiny dudes present said to me "you know, when I go eat at a restaurant, I don't pay for the meal and then bus the table myself." He didn't get it, and he didn't last. If you don't want to play the Incarnate Trials, then don't. There is so much content, you will be fine. The new Sutter and Kal TF/SFs are awesome, and you should have no trouble enjoying other aspects of the game. Most of all, I just want folks to continue to patronize this, by far the best of the hero-style MMOs (and one of the best MMOs, period.). |
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
Quote:
Probably, I am getting senile...|
Originally Posted by Ironik
Boy-howdy did YOU ever miss the point.
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I have to admit I was thinking just what you were thinking about getting incarnate status and then strolling on up to Jack-In-Irons and soloing him... Would've been cool.
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Giant Monsters don't have levels, so all your relevant Incarnate abilities will work against him. Go nuts.
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Originally Posted by BeornAgain
I have to admit I was thinking just what you were thinking about getting incarnate status and then strolling on up to Jack-In-Irons and soloing him... Would've been cool.
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Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
Quote:
No, they'd started shiny-chasing then, too.
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Originally Posted by ComradeCommunism
I think that's a first. Someone arguing that things were better when Jack was in charge.
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I've spent the past month away from the game and the forum. I generally only post on the forums when I don't have the ability to be playing a game (whether this one or a different one). The only thing non-casual about my interaction with this game is my (previous) investment in it. I was non-casually invested in the game, but I played it casually. I am now casually invested in the game, and don't play it at all.
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Originally Posted by Friggin_Taser
Eiko, I really do hope you don't consider yourself a "casual" player. That'd be like a millionaire politician running a campaign about how he's just like regular middle class common folk.
It's disingenuous at best and outright detrimental to forum discourse at worse. |
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And therein lies the point you are missing. You put up with training that wasn't particularly enjoyable in and of itself for the sake of gaining a desired skill.| I hated each lesson with him, but I refused to give up, because I saw what you could do if you learned... |
In BAF/Lambda, in any MMO or video game, there is nothing -- n-o-t-h-i-n-g -- to be gained except the entertainment value of the activity itself. (The number of opportunities to earn tangible rewards through professional-level tournament play are few enough to be discounted, particularly in our case since that number is zero.) The in-game rewards are figuratively and literally immaterial. They are not worth anything and one day they WILL be gone when the game ends. Players who lose sight of this are heading for the dark side.
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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I am playing a game where my only way to interact with the game world is to type into the computer, and mash buttons to activate powers. I hate to put it that way, but honestly that's the only way I have to control my character. |
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Everyone needs to stop complaining. Give it two weeks. Play it a few times, try some new ideas. Try new tactics. Try new team compositions. Just keep trying and don't do the same thing every time.
If you fail, then get up and try to do it the same way you failed but harder this time, you're going to do nothing but fail. Change it up. Adapt. If you still feel this way in two weeks, then you can complain. |
I am running these trials, a IOed out Brute, who until this I had thought was pretty tough. I had taunted Recluse in a STF, an enraged Bobcat, and even Tyrant at the end of the Maria Jenkins arc (before the retcon to that arc...). I simply no longer feel super playing my super hero. Hitting the ground with my face, is not my super power...
So when you tell everyone to stop complaining, No, frankly. This is unacceptably designed. It is MADE for the powers it is giving out. That is ridiculous. I could understand if it was difficult without an Alpha slot, or even almost impossible without one. But bosses capable of one shotting tanks, brutes and scrappers, before the defenders and controllers can heal them, completely negates both the damage they can do, and the defenses they are suppose to have. As well as the support the Defenders are suppose to provide, that is ridiculous. Designing the Raids to NEED the very powers they unlock is ludicrous, as it enforces a you will die a dozen times to earn this then perhaps it could be you can feel super again.
It isn't that we aren't communicating, It isn't that we aren't trying it time and time again. It's just that the damned 9cu and battle orbs have completely unreasonable, and deadly abilities so far beyond anything seen in the game so far they should be classed as AVs themselves. Now I love this game, I have played since the original beta, and consider myself a veteran player, but this, is simply to much. This design has negated the Super in Super Hero MMO, I feel like I'm playing Call of Duty, Die, respawn, try to make a dent, Die, respawn, try to make a dent, repeat...
This isn't a game where we come to play a game of face plant. and design that repeatedly makes us face plant isn't ok. This is a Super Hero MMORPG. So when we play we should feel like we are playing super heroes. Right now I feel like I am watching replays of my character getting curb stomped by 9CUs.
It is not even remotely fair to the Brutes, the Tankers, the Scrappers, the Masterminds, or the Defenders. Everyone else isn't fairing so well either...
Yes it has been completed. But the 9cus and Battle Orbs need a revamp, there is no reason, why a boss should be one shotting (ONE SHOTTING, something coding prevents me from doing to anything equal level to me...) a player!
My suggestion is to eliminate them as coded. Recode them as true bosses, without the scaling damage over time. The missions will still retain they're difficulty without being impossible. If they really must be uber difficult, then code them each with an EB per mob. No more of this boss level enemies one shotting PC players.
I cannot one shot a boss of 4 levels lower then me. I can't one shot a boss in Steel Canyon every single time. Yet these Bosses in this Trial can one shot me, Every Single Time... .25 seconds, I timed it... all toggles on, tier 9 running, (and by all toggles I do mean fighting pool too).
This isn't a matter of build, or a matter of poor communication, this is a matter of people having the very meat and bones of they're characters just ignored, by design, and that, well that is beyond frustrating to me.
"when i can savagely beat sheep while issuing ultimatums and torturing people, then i may go back into it" -vara nocturne
Not enough Evil...
I take it back NC SOFT is enough evil for anyone...
I said this a few weeks ago and I'm going to repeat it: the fixed cost for everything in your life is time. You have X amount of time to do something and no matter what you do, you can never get more time. For something that falls under "entertainment," then it needs to be fun or interesting or otherwise engaging. If it is not, then there is no shame in labeling it with the single worst appellation we have: a waste of time.
If that's how people feel about something in the game, then that's their right. If at some point people feel the endgame isn't fulfilling their entertainment needs, then they'll move on.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!