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Golly...this makes me want to roll an SR scrapper. Quickness is the cornerstone of the set isn't it? | Quickness still works fine |
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The 'as designed' concept is for you to fail over and over and over again until you have enough experience to unlock and slot one of the new abilities, after which you may have the power to not fail.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
What the hell do you think I do?
And die again. And die again. And again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and bloody again because the team is getting killed off by the huge mob of Battle Orb spamming Bosses and LTs! We killed the Portals! We killed the other mobs! We take on Marauder and DIE. What the ruddy hell do you suggest, oh font of all bleeding wisdom? |
It will take you about ten failed trials to unlock one slot. There are four slots. You may die about a dozen times on each failed trial. I figure that about 300 suicides for a fully empowered character is about what the devs intended.
Congratulations. After hundreds of worthless deaths, now you're a hero. What was that old saying, a brave man dies a thousand times, a coward...no, wait, something's off there...
...
New Webcomic -- Genocide Man
Life is funny. Death is funnier. Mass slaughter can be hilarious.
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Calm down.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
What the hell do you think I do?
And die again. And die again. And again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and bloody again because the team is getting killed off by the huge mob of Battle Orb spamming Bosses and LTs! We killed the Portals! We killed the other mobs! We take on Marauder and DIE. What the ruddy hell do you suggest, oh font of all bleeding wisdom? |
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Raiding to gear up so you can continue to raid for new raids....I have seen this game design before....
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Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
The 'as designed' concept is for you to fail over and over and over again until you have enough experience to unlock and slot one of the new abilities, after which you may have the power to not fail.
It will take you about ten failed trials to unlock one slot. There are four slots. You may die about a dozen times on each failed trial. I figure that about 300 suicides for a fully empowered character is about what the devs intended. Congratulations. After hundreds of worthless deaths, now you're a hero. What was that old saying, a brave man dies a thousand times, a coward...no, wait, something's off there... |
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Originally Posted by Gemini_2099
Raiding to gear up so you can continue to raid for new raids....I have seen this game design before....
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It's actually the opposite to that.
It would be like if genre leader MMO let you run raids unsuccessfully a couple of dozen times, then took 'pity' on you and gave you the gear to accomplish the raid.
Now if the Judgment etc slots were needed to complete the new trials, and had to be earned from other things, then it would be gearing up for a raid.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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To be blunt, almost every decent scrapper build I have ever seen has had Weave and usually CJ. I'm surprised you don't have them already. Complaining that your build isn't tough enough when you could, but don't, take powers that would make you tougher is silly.|
Originally Posted by Miss Chief
So now I have to take Weave and combat jumping to make the trial survivable and fill my tray exclusively with purples?
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Originally Posted by elvnsword09
Yes, but the Nictus' heal didn't completely negate anyone's powers.
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Look, if the trials weren't challenging now, they'd be mind-numbingly trivial in a week once people have the new slots unlocked and filled. And even now, they're far from impossible.
Comparing this to other games' progression is a joke. In That Other Game, the best players in the world, wearing the best equipment available, using every form of coordination and teamwork known to man, wipe for weeks or months on new bosses before getting a single kill. People were completing the trials within hours of the servers coming back up yesterday, with PuGs they put together in Pocket D.
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Actually that is how the market leaders PVP design works.
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Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
It's actually the opposite to that.
It would be like if genre leader MMO let you run raids unsuccessfully a couple of dozen times, then took 'pity' on you and gave you the gear to accomplish the raid. Now if the Judgment etc slots were needed to complete the new trials, and had to be earned from other things, then it would be gearing up for a raid. |
One thing to note is that the spawn sizes scale with the number of people in your league, just like with team size in standard missions.
I've found that my chances are better with smaller leagues, since each additional member both increases the chances of having poor coordination, and increases the penalties of poor coordination with heavier reinforcements. The times I've seen raids hit the 9CU event horizon have been much greater in larger leagues.
Of course, this only applies to the PUGs. A manually assembled, coordinated team of players will certainly gain benefits from having larger leagues.
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Originally Posted by Gemini_2099
Actually that is how the market leaders PVP design works.
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True but we are talking PVE here, PVP is pretty much a dead duck for CoX.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
Everyone needs to stop complaining. Give it two weeks. Play it a few times, try some new ideas. Try new tactics. Try new team compositions. Just keep trying and don't do the same thing every time.
If you fail, then get up and try to do it the same way you failed but harder this time, you're going to do nothing but fail. Change it up. Adapt.
If you still feel this way in two weeks, then you can complain.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
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don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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The taunt component of Invincibility may not be that strong, but the taunt component of AAO certainly is. I have to run certain parts with it off or I'll be dragging half that warehouse full of mobs with me. And those Vickys HURT.|
Originally Posted by Aliana Blue
No, not really. Be aware of what's around you and position yourself accordingly. The taunt component of Scrapper auras isn't that strong, and things have to get in almost melee range to get taunted. If there's a mass of mobs, don't hop in the middle. If mobs are coming, step out of their path.
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Originally Posted by Gemini_2099
No one wants to admit it but I will.
Incarnate content is a "gear reset" to level the playing field between SO builds and IO builds. Problem is making both SO builds and IO builds feel mediocre sends mixed messages about the future direction. |
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Originally Posted by White Hot Flash
My question for those that are having a hard time staying alive:
What the hell is the rest of your team doing? |
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Originally Posted by Mallerick
I died. I died a lot. I died more than the rest of the team. Even the scaling resistances of my passive defenses had no effect. There's just NO WAY to avoid death (defeat) with only Defenses to protect you. An SR has become a squishy, you may as well run it with your toggles off. (Really, this is serious advice) But don't listen to those bitter SR players that are saying "My entire Secondary has been neutered!" It's not true. Quickness still works fine.
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Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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I guess throwing a fit and ragequitting game is the only option left to you then. |
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
What the hell do you think I do?
And die again. And die again. And again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and bloody again because the team is getting killed off by the huge mob of Battle Orb spamming Bosses and LTs! We killed the Portals! We killed the other mobs! We take on Marauder and DIE. What the ruddy hell do you suggest, oh font of all bleeding wisdom? |
If you're THIS pissed about it, why waste your time on it anymore?
You clearly feel the devs have destroyed the entire game in one issue. The only logical course of action left for you is to stop giving them your money.
Or you can keep paying for something you seem to hate now and make a donkey of yourself on the forums.
Or, you can wait until after the first freaking day of the new stuff when people might have figured out how this thing works and try it again.
Guess we found the game killer here. Make something that is difficult enough that people can't blindly button mash through it, and you'll have droves of people rage-quitting because their easy mode got taken away.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Oh, look, a strawman.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
I guess throwing a fit and ragequitting game is the only option left to you then.
If you're THIS pissed about it, why waste your time on it anymore? You clearly feel the devs have destroyed the entire game in one issue. The only logical course of action left for you is to stop giving them your money. Or you can keep paying for something you seem to hate now and make a donkey of yourself on the forums. Or, you can wait until after the first freaking day of the new stuff when people might have figured out how this thing works and try it again. Guess we found the game killer here. Make something that is difficult enough that people can't blindly button mash through it, and you'll have droves of people rage-quitting because their easy mode got taken away. |
Oh, look, a whole group of strawmen!
Kindly stop putting words in my mouth. The game is not broken. I never
said that, and you know it.
And just because I'm annoyed with something effectively cheating doesn't mean I'm going to quit. On the flip side, that doesn't mean I have to keel over with giddy rapture about it either.
Last time I checked, these forums allowed for anyone to voice their opinions. And my opinion is that the +4 Boss and Lt mobs contain too much cheat to make this fun, at present, especially when playing an MM (my main char).
So, kindly find someone elses intelligence to try and insult.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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And my opinion is that raging and declaring new content to be horribly broken and badly designed after less than 24 hours of it being live and still brand new to 90% of the game's players is ridiculous. |
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Last time I checked, these forums allowed for anyone to voice their opinions. And my opinion is that the +4 Boss and Lt mobs contain too much cheat to make this fun, at present, especially when playing an MM (my main char).
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ALL of the same things I am seeing said about the trials have been said about EVERY new task force that has been introduced to the game since I started playing.
And I thought people raging about how hard they were on the first day of their release was stupid then too.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
And my opinion is that raging and declaring new content to be horribly broken and badly designed after less than 24 hours of it being live and still brand new to 90% of the game's players is ridiculous.
ALL of the same things I am seeing said about the trials have been said about EVERY new task force that has been introduced to the game since I started playing. And I thought people raging about how hard they were on the first day of their release was stupid then too. |
I'll outright say that content that requires a reward to pass, which also awards that reward is very poor game design.
"Oh you need tier 10 gear to beat the cave of dragons!" Vet guy
"And where do I get tier 10 gear?" Newbie Guy
"By beating the cave of dragons!".
Or in this case, to even the field with the 'cheaty' mobs we need the slots and level shifts granted by the trials. Dying a whole bunch of time so you can grind enough threads and ixp so your AT can actually begin to function is not 'good' game design.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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On the flipside, I consider going from a team being able to challenge x8 +4 End mobs with a decent chance of success if they were skilled and careful to the same team being wiped out within ten seconds equally ludicrous. |
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
And my opinion is that raging and declaring new content to be horribly broken and badly designed after less than 24 hours of it being live and still brand new to 90% of the game's players is ridiculous.
ALL of the same things I am seeing said about the trials have been said about EVERY new task force that has been introduced to the game since I started playing. And I thought people raging about how hard they were on the first day of their release was stupid then too. |
I'm not harping to the stupid tune of 'Waaah it's too hard, don't like it!' I'm complaining that, having tried tactics and different teams and suchnot, with leaders and other players who clearly know what they are doing, I'm getting punished adversely for (partially being an MM and) no good reason. Other than the mobs are an enforced +4 and have ludicrously high accuracy.
Edit: And what CB said.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Marauder is brick-walling you? Other than Nova Fist and Enrage, he's a completely normal level 54 AV. We've been fighting those with no level shifts and only 8 teammates forever.
EDIT: Okay, he does have [Scaling]. Still, if you manage to acid all the doors and still can't beat Marauder, the only thing I can conclude is that you're doing it wrong.
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
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This. The trials really aren't as difficult as people think they are, it's just that it's new and most people don't know what the hell to do in them.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Everyone needs to stop complaining. Give it two weeks. Play it a few times, try some new ideas. Try new tactics. Try new team compositions. Just keep trying and don't do the same thing every time.
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I ran 5 trials on my Fire/Rad Corr, one failed and I only died ONCE. And that death was on the first Lambda trial I ran, someone triggered the third phase by going down the elevator before I got done explaining what needs to be done, so everyone was all over the place with a race against the clock. At one point it was just me and a Blaster taking out containment chambers and we actually destroyed a bunch of them by ourselves until I eventually ran out of inspirations and died.
[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]
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TEN failed trials to unlock 1 slot? What are you doing, door sitting? Please stop with the hyperbole. ONE failed Lambda and I got 40% towards my Interface slot. 2-4 fails, and you will have the slot open, plus either have or be close to the threads you need to craft your first boost. And gee... 2-4 failures is about what I had during the first week of the STF, RSF, etc. At least this time I'm getting meaningful progress even with fails.|
Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
The 'as designed' concept is for you to fail over and over and over again until you have enough experience to unlock and slot one of the new abilities, after which you may have the power to not fail.
It will take you about ten failed trials to unlock one slot. There are four slots. You may die about a dozen times on each failed trial. I figure that about 300 suicides for a fully empowered character is about what the devs intended. Congratulations. After hundreds of worthless deaths, now you're a hero. What was that old saying, a brave man dies a thousand times, a coward...no, wait, something's off there... |
10 failed trials and you'll likely have enough for a Tier 3 (possibly), and I wouldn't blame you for frustration, I would have it too and take a break from raiding at that point. But please don't muddle the issue saying that it takes forever to unlock 1 slot- it simply doesn't.
(FYI, that Lambda- that was with serious errors in the fail- we said the hell with getting any acid in the 2nd part, and then were curbstomped in the courtyard by massive spawns because we couldn't shut the portals down. Our mistake, but we learned, and like I said, got 40% which is a NICE amount)
"Well, there's going to be some light music and a short note of apology saying, 'The universe ended last week, we're really sorry, we don't know what you're doing here, didn't you get the message?'"- Steve Moffat
The Lambda trial offers significantly more XP than the BAF.
The BAF a successful completion nets you around 20%ish on the Judgement and around 15% on the Lore.
Lambda trial offers roughly 30% per completion on Interface and 20% on Destiny.
So yes, 10 failed BAFs if you fail at stage 3 (you get around 10% towards the next slot at that point) is actually a legitimate number to unlock the Judgement slot.
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Please stop acting as though unlocking Incarnate slots means anything. The only difference between my level 50 and one with Interface unlocked is the latter has a shiny new badge. This is Yet Another Thing that I strongly dislike about the Incarnate system.|
Originally Posted by Friggin_Taser
Meanwhile, people who understood the design of the trials already have their Interface or Destiny slots unlocked.
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Right now, after three miserable failed Lambdas, I'm actually sitting pretty at 91% Interface. But I also only have about a third of the threads I need to actually do anything with it. This dissonance, and the fact that if I really want to get more Threads I have to grind some more, has sapped much of my enthusiasm.
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Originally Posted by DanZero
Lamda is not hard with good leadership and a full 16. No one's running it with 8 until they're fully incarnatededed.
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Originally Posted by IanTheM1
Please stop acting as though unlocking Incarnate slots means anything. The only difference between my level 50 and one with Interface unlocked is the latter has a shiny new badge. This is Yet Another Thing that I strongly dislike about the Incarnate system.
Right now, after three miserable failed Lambdas, I'm actually sitting pretty at 91% Interface. But I also only have about a third of the threads I need to actually do anything with it. This dissonance has sapped much of my enthusiasm. . |
Run some BAF's the mobs are a lot less cheaty and you get a type of merit that can be turned into four threads several times through out the mission.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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I have a different perspective on two parts of this:|
Originally Posted by Miss Chief
Her major points are S+L Resistance which is next to useless thanks to all the fire and energy flying around, she has very little ranged defence which for a melee based character who should be 'in there' shouldn't be a necessity either.
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1) I think this is VERY comic book-ish in a GREAT way. A certain establised hero is nearly invulnerable to EVERYTHING, but matter from his home planet could kill him. Stories revolving around his weakness are much more prevalent and interesting than him just defeating everything with ease. That a comic book MMO is mirroring true comics--I like it!
2) It's the striving against the impossible that happens in comics, and for the game to have some situations where that is the case is amazingly great! Players still have a thousand other ways to do "easier" tasks, so to have some hard ones is great. Just because there are a couple of very difficult trials in the game, I don't think it is reason to complain, I think it is reason to rejoice. If I don't like it, I just play on the dozens and dozens of other things I could do.
Global Name: Denver Nugget
Playing since i3 on 8 servers
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Exactly. Remember when Kahn went live? All you heard in channels was, "how do you defeat Reichs??". Then people realized that you don't kill him the first time you see him, you kill him at the end. These trials will have their tricks, too.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Everyone needs to stop complaining. Give it two weeks. Play it a few times, try some new ideas. Try new tactics. Try new team compositions. Just keep trying and don't do the same thing every time.
If you fail, then get up and try to do it the same way you failed but harder this time, you're going to do nothing but fail. Change it up. Adapt. If you still feel this way in two weeks, then you can complain. |
Global Name: Denver Nugget
Playing since i3 on 8 servers
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Does it show that I've done Lambda a LOT more then BAF on test? My bad then.. you would think that both trials would unlock equally. Then again.... Lambda is a LOT harder then a BAF, so it sort of makes sense............|
Originally Posted by Dr_Mechano
The Lambda trial offers significantly more XP than the BAF.
The BAF a successful completion nets you around 20%ish on the Judgement and around 15% on the Lore. Lambda trial offers roughly 30% per completion on Interface and 20% on Destiny. So yes, 10 failed BAFs if you fail at stage 3 (you get around 10% towards the next slot at that point) is actually a legitimate number to unlock the Judgement slot. |
Still.. I think the 'rage' needs to chill for a bit.. at least 1-2 weeks till the full populace of the game shakes out the trials....
"Well, there's going to be some light music and a short note of apology saying, 'The universe ended last week, we're really sorry, we don't know what you're doing here, didn't you get the message?'"- Steve Moffat