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There's this strange idea floating around recently in these threads that if the enemy tohit chance isn't floored, then defense is completely invalidated.|
Originally Posted by Gemini_2099
Defense shouldn't be invalidated completely, and more importantly not everyone build IO sets with defense in mind.
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Enemies in the trials have 64% tohit. A /Inv scrapper with Invinc, Weave, Tough Hide, and Combat Jumping has ~21% defense with one enemy in range. That right there cuts the enemy's base chance to hit from 64% to 43% - about a 1/3 reduction in damage taken. That's a set that isn't exclusively focused on defense, under the worst possible circumstances. Then you layer on your resists, and your large heal and +maxhp, and rising defense as more enemies attack you, and you're still looking pretty survivable for a scrapper not using IOs.
Also, in a trial containing up to 24 people, odds are very high that there will be someone who provides a defense buff. Even if there isn't, a tray full of small purples used one at a time lasts 20 minutes and brings a 45%-softcapped character almost to the 59% trial softcap. Even without doing that, 45% defense is still preventing ~2/3 of the attacks that would otherwise hit, so it's about on par with resistance-based sets.
Ultimately, if you die, then your allies get to Vengeance/Fallout your corpse, then 30 seconds later you come back from the hospital with a full tray of inspirations.
So now I have to take Weave and combat jumping to make the trial survivable and fill my tray exclusively with purples?
I also hate to tell you this, but when you run invinc you won't just have one bad guy in range, you're likely to be hitting double figures. All with damage types you're weak against. And who all are likely to use ranged attacks to do it.
Defiant 50's
Many and varied!
@Miss Chief
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Uh...|
Originally Posted by Miss Chief
I also hate to tell you this, but when you run invinc you won't just have one bad guy in range, you're likely to be hitting double figures.
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No, not really. Be aware of what's around you and position yourself accordingly. The taunt component of Scrapper auras isn't that strong, and things have to get in almost melee range to get taunted. If there's a mass of mobs, don't hop in the middle. If mobs are coming, step out of their path.
That's how life was for /Inv scrappers back in the 20s after getting Invincibility for the first time, remember? You may need to unlock slots and level shift some more before you can jump with complete abandon into masses of enemies in the trials. It's not the end of the world.
Players' Choice Awards: Best Dual-Origin Level Range Arc!
It's a new era, the era of the Mission Architect. Can you save the Universe from...
The Invasion of the Bikini-clad Samurai Vampiresses from Outer Space? - Arc ID 61013
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Originally Posted by Gemini_2099
Failure to understand why players didn't like the GDN, E.D., or even being locked into Patron pools appears to be showing up again as problems.
Defense shouldn't be invalidated completely, and more importantly not everyone build IO sets with defense in mind. |
Well, there's a flaw with this argument. Let's say you're def capped. Now let's say, for argument's sake, the mobs before I20 had a 44% chance to hit you. So you take 0 damage.
Now, let's say the devs give the mobs +2% chance to hit. Now you're taking 100% DAMAGE. And you say,
"OMGWT*BBQTHISGAMEHASGONETOTHEAMERICANSEATINGTHEKI TTEHSOMGOMGOMG!!!"
Perhaps, instead of depending solely on "I WIN" buttons, people should look at their tactics, and rather than mashing buttons, think on their feet a little. It's beatable, even without an optimized team/build/etc...
BUT! The key was stated in another thread: You Don't need to 'win' the trial to advance your incarnate XP and achieve the desired goal (unlocking the slots)!! Don't worry about success/failure so much - UNLOCK THE SLOTS!! It will get easier as more people learn it, more people get THEIR slots, and more people get level shifted.
So RELAX and go with the flow. These things are great fun, if you relax and watch what's going on around you - people backing each other up, saving each other's bacon, adjusting to the enemies, beating a challenging foe... it's what I play the game for.
Arc #6015 - Coming Unglued
"A good n00b-sauce is based on a good n00b-roux." - The Masque
Ok, it's all about tactics then, is it? No problem!
-Sit at range and have pets attack!
-Pets refuse to stay at range, despite being recalled several times, die from stupid ammounts of high-acc AoE
-Move in and lay traps in mobs!
-Pets get one shotted by high-acc Boss mobs, obliterated by stupid ammounts of AoE
-Send pets in at range so I can re-summon them in waves!
-Pets die even faster due to being retards who try to punch a warwalker in the kneecaps, and from lacking the FF Gen +def and status protection, I get picked off by auto-hit Artillery and can't resummon. Due to auto-hit cheap artillery.
So, tell me then. WHAT THE HELL AM I MEANT TO DO?! What are your mythical tactics that suddenly make it all better, and make it so that I don't get one shotted through soft cap, that means I can avoid the auto-hit artillery power (NO, not the turrets, we killed those in stage 2)
I'm a Mastermind. Supposedly I'm this mythical, overpowered thing that deserves no pity for already being so uber...
Well, Lambda sure made that even more untrue than it already was.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Speak for yourself. This isn't fun, or challenging. The plethora of high acc, high dam and high AoE, along with cheaty auto-hit powers make this a freaking nightmare, especially for MMs.
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Originally Posted by galadiman
These things are great fun-
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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No but at the same time if I have earned that defense, and those powers I shouldn't see it just taken away by design. The new enemies as presented in these trials, ESPECIALLY the 9cus are ridiculously powerful. They are dropping tanks so fast we CAN"T DO OUR JOBS. That is what we are complaining about. We are suppose to be able to soak up damage. To take the beating. that's why we don't deal the amounts of damage that a scrapper, or blaster does, but in these trials we are face planting faster then the defenders can heal us.
Thats why your hearing complaints...
"when i can savagely beat sheep while issuing ultimatums and torturing people, then i may go back into it" -vara nocturne
Not enough Evil...
I take it back NC SOFT is enough evil for anyone...
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I seem to recall nearly the exact same complaints about ITF on its launch (with a side-order of "you mean my pets are buffing the healing nictus' heal? What am I supposed to do now?), and now the thing is nearly trivial.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Speak for yourself. This isn't fun, or challenging. The plethora of high acc, high dam and high AoE, along with cheaty auto-hit powers make this a freaking nightmare, especially for MMs.
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Originally Posted by Back Alley Brawler
Did you just use "casual gamer" and "purpled-out warshade" in the same sentence?
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Exactly. We've tread this same road before. Many people have done these trials a few times at most and really don't know what they are doing. They're getting frustrated because compared to other content they don't know it as well. Yes, the Incarnate trials are difficult. They do require more coordination, tactics and listening that other content. One simple solution I would offer to everyone is target the battle orbs first. It will make a big difference. Next, do not immediately assume that your soft-capped character has any great advantage on these trials. Do not assume the opposite either, that your soft-capped character is being picked on. The Praetorians come loaded for bear and they are intended to be difficult. |
Originally Posted by ArcticFahx
I seem to recall nearly the exact same complaints about ITF on its launch (with a side-order of "you mean my pets are buffing the healing nictus' heal? What am I supposed to do now?), and now the thing is nearly trivial.
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In two weeks, once people are casting Destiny buffs, have new level shifts, are debuffing via Interface, Judgments are wiping spawns, and most importantly people understand the strategies for defeating this content, everything will calm down.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Yes, but the Nictus' heal didn't completely negate anyone's powers. a Tank's ability is: "The Tanker can take it and dish it out all at once. The Tanker primarily can absorb vast amounts of damage, and hold his own in a fist fight. But the Tanker lacks any long range punch. The Tanker would prefer just to charge straight ahead anyway." Frankly, in the BAF, they can't take it, they simply face plant... it's ridiculous...
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Originally Posted by ArcticFahx
I seem to recall nearly the exact same complaints about ITF on its launch (with a side-order of "you mean my pets are buffing the healing nictus' heal? What am I supposed to do now?), and now the thing is nearly trivial.
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"when i can savagely beat sheep while issuing ultimatums and torturing people, then i may go back into it" -vara nocturne
Not enough Evil...
I take it back NC SOFT is enough evil for anyone...
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Actually, there was that exact complaint thanks to critical defense debuff cascade from the Romans. And then people worked out how to beat that.
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Originally Posted by elvnsword09
Yes, but the Nictus' heal didn't completely negate anyone's powers. a Tank's ability is: "The Tanker can take it and dish it out all at once. The Tanker primarily can absorb vast amounts of damage, and hold his own in a fist fight. But the Tanker lacks any long range punch. The Tanker would prefer just to charge straight ahead anyway." Frankly, in the BAF, they can't take it, they simply face plant... it's ridiculous...
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Originally Posted by Back Alley Brawler
Did you just use "casual gamer" and "purpled-out warshade" in the same sentence?
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Except the Romans have base level accuracy and don't spam AoEs like they are going outta fashion, meaning that, while Rommy might get heal buffs off pets, they are still alive to be throwing damage right back in his face at all times.
Romans also don't come +4 as standard, with whole mobs being made of rediculously powerful, AoE spamming Bosses that ca- Ok, no, not true there. Praefects CAN one/two shot me still. But they also obey normal acc laws, making it a lot less likely, whereas Commanders just run up and BAM. Down.
And I see no ones bothered to explain why the Artillery is necessary? Thats my main gripe.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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One of the Nictus attacks is auto-hit.
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Originally Posted by elvnsword09
Yes, but the Nictus' heal didn't completely negate anyone's powers. a Tank's ability is: "The Tanker can take it and dish it out all at once. The Tanker primarily can absorb vast amounts of damage, and hold his own in a fist fight. But the Tanker lacks any long range punch. The Tanker would prefer just to charge straight ahead anyway." Frankly, in the BAF, they can't take it, they simply face plant... it's ridiculous...
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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The Romans aren't empowered by the Well either.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Except the Romans have base level accuracy and don't spam AoEs like they are going outta fashion, meaning that, while Rommy might get heal buffs off pets, they are still alive to be throwing damage right back in his face at all times.
Romans also don't come +4 as standard, with whole mobs being made of rediculously powerful, AoE spamming Bosses that ca- Ok, no, not true there. Praefects CAN one/two shot me still. But they also obey normal acc laws, making it a lot less likely, whereas Commanders just run up and BAM. Down. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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I didn't answer you because I agree to a certain extent. Masterminds depend on pets who are too squishy for most of this content. Pet A.I. is not capable of making the decisions needed during the trial to be effective.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
And I see no ones bothered to explain why the Artillery is necessary? Thats my main gripe.
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I suspected this would happen. Pets (except ones like PA which are invincible), and raids are troublesome. It's usually OK when you have tight control over ONE pet like in other MMORPGs, but it's much more difficult here when characters are running around with multiples.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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I would like to warn people that this is leading towards homogenization where there isn't any defined roles for AT's. That is essentially the Incarnate system in a nutshell.
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Originally Posted by elvnsword09
Yes, but the Nictus' heal didn't completely negate anyone's powers. a Tank's ability is: "The Tanker can take it and dish it out all at once. The Tanker primarily can absorb vast amounts of damage, and hold his own in a fist fight. But the Tanker lacks any long range punch. The Tanker would prefer just to charge straight ahead anyway." Frankly, in the BAF, they can't take it, they simply face plant... it's ridiculous...
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Only Cole and the Praetors are, and even then I'd say, due to canon based comments, even then ONLY Cole is Well empowered directly.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
The Romans aren't empowered by the Well either.
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That is not a good excuse for fixed level 54 Boss mobs. Never has been, never will be.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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You are right, I didn't. I also die far less than those who did.
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Originally Posted by Gemini_2099
Failure to understand why players didn't like the GDN, E.D., or even being locked into Patron pools appears to be showing up again as problems.
Defense shouldn't be invalidated completely, and more importantly not everyone build IO sets with defense in mind. |
Types of Swords
My Portfolio
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I wish they'd look at whatever changes they made to Pet A.I. when Demons cames out, because it fundamentally broke something within ranged pets that now forces them into melee. |
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
I didn't answer you because I agree to a certain extent. Masterminds depend on pets who are too squishy for most of this content. Pet A.I. is not capable of making the decisions needed during the trial to be effective.
I suspected this would happen. Pets (except ones like PA which are invincible), and raids are troublesome. It's usually OK when you have tight control over ONE pet like in other MMORPGs, but it's much more difficult here when characters are running around with multiples. |
I don't want my pets in melee. I defintely don't want my drones running up to a Warwalker and punching it in the shin!
I'd much prefer the ability to trade all the pets in for one EB class pet or something like that....maybe two. Something big that could take the massive hits being thrown around without falling over in about 3 seconds.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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No one wants to admit it but I will.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Ok, it's all about tactics then, is it? No problem!
-Sit at range and have pets attack! -Pets refuse to stay at range, despite being recalled several times, die from stupid ammounts of high-acc AoE -Move in and lay traps in mobs! -Pets get one shotted by high-acc Boss mobs, obliterated by stupid ammounts of AoE -Send pets in at range so I can re-summon them in waves! -Pets die even faster due to being retards who try to punch a warwalker in the kneecaps, and from lacking the FF Gen +def and status protection, I get picked off by auto-hit Artillery and can't resummon. Due to auto-hit cheap artillery. So, tell me then. WHAT THE HELL AM I MEANT TO DO?! What are your mythical tactics that suddenly make it all better, and make it so that I don't get one shotted through soft cap, that means I can avoid the auto-hit artillery power (NO, not the turrets, we killed those in stage 2) I'm a Mastermind. Supposedly I'm this mythical, overpowered thing that deserves no pity for already being so uber... Well, Lambda sure made that even more untrue than it already was. |
Incarnate content is a "gear reset" to level the playing field between SO builds and IO builds. Problem is making both SO builds and IO builds feel mediocre sends mixed messages about the future direction.
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That is completely irrelevant to the discussion. You could set the game up so that the AVs empowered by the well kill anyone that comes within 100 feet, and claim that "well, they're empowered by the Well". That wouldn't make it good design.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
The Romans aren't empowered by the Well either.
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The lore reason of why they're so powerful is irrelevant to whether the trials are mechanically well designed or not.
Players' Choice Awards: Best Dual-Origin Level Range Arc!
It's a new era, the era of the Mission Architect. Can you save the Universe from...
The Invasion of the Bikini-clad Samurai Vampiresses from Outer Space? - Arc ID 61013
Quote:
If that were true, I'd call utter BS on it.|
Originally Posted by Gemini_2099
No one wants to admit it but I will.
Incarnate content is a "gear reset" to level the playing field between SO builds and IO builds. Problem is making both SO builds and IO builds feel mediocre sends mixed messages about the future direction. |
I see no way to make it 'fair' against IO builds without doubly penalising SO builds.
I dread to think what the raids woulda been like if Alpha wasn't IO'd to the hilt...
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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There were run by teams with SOs, and beaten. It is all about tactics, and working together. Communication is a huge. People need to be told what to do, when to do it, then the actually need to do it.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
If that were true, I'd call utter BS on it.
I see no way to make it 'fair' against IO builds without doubly penalising SO builds. I dread to think what the raids woulda been like if Alpha wasn't IO'd to the hilt... |
Types of Swords
My Portfolio
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Essentially you just described the Market leaders end game.
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Originally Posted by Zyphoid
There were run by teams with SOs, and beaten. It is all about tactics, and working together. Communication is a huge. People need to be told what to do, when to do it, then the actually need to do it.
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Players' Choice Awards: Best Dual-Origin Level Range Arc!
It's a new era, the era of the Mission Architect. Can you save the Universe from...
The Invasion of the Bikini-clad Samurai Vampiresses from Outer Space? - Arc ID 61013