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*Gemini makes a second batch of popcorn*|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
You know what they say about assuming, correct?
I'm the one who, for instance, LIKED having full strength Voids and Quantums. So don't ASSume that I'm complaining about difficulty. I *liked* taking Trapdoor - who had others complaining about difficulty - down on a g-damn GRAV KIN on SOs. I DISLIKE the whole "raid for gear to raid for gear" crap. You can't grasp how this is different from "well, you get merits you can use for IOs for Khan, too!" Yeah, well, I can also run Khan perfectly fine on SOs. I don't NEED IOs for Khan. Khan isn't balanced with the idea that you'll end up with an IOd out build. Khan isn't designed with the idea that you'll rerun it over and over and over and over and over and over and over to unlock those IOs, then churn it some MORE to get merits to make it reasonable. I can run Khan on pretty much any character with *anything* slotted and have an enjoyable time. I don't go into Khan "expecting to fail so I can get stuff to do better next time." Just looking at my 50s - the only ones who can run this content - I have 24 of them. I have to have a decent (and full, if last night's runs had anything to say about it) team to have a chance at doing anything but failing. I have to run it four times (given the "incarnate XP") to unlock ONE slot, four more for the other, then hope I've managed to "win" at some point to not have to grind *even more* for components - and if I need a level shift, I either have to have more INF on *each* of them than most have for a single uncommon COMPONENT, or hope that maybe a team will succeed to save that. Four times each. Eight times for one tree, then eight times (with different salvage, of course) for the OTHER tree, then if I'm short "threads," grind some more. And as I've said elsewhere - I'd ignore this, but given the Dev comments ("Hmm, what could be COMING that would have the well worried?") it sounds like I'll need to grind through this nonsense to see the *future* content evolving the game lore. You don't like me complaining, tough. I don't like where all this is pointing,and I don't like the design. We haven't HAD to grind with an "expect to fail until you get the stuff to do this" mentality before. We haven't had a "Well, once you have THESE IOs you can win" before. People complained about trapdoor out of being tough - I didn't. I soloed him on SOs. I AM NOT COMPLAINING ABOUT DIFFICULTY. I *am* complaining about the formerly, thankfully missing grind for gear to raid for gear to raid for gear nonsense getting added to this game. Edit: Also in a non-Khan fashion - how about "Well, there's a part of the encounter you need to get temp powers you might, MAYBE, get during the mission?" Three acids on the entire team. Since we weren't a full 12 or whatever it was, we had zero stun grenades for Marauder. That's sucktastic game design. "Oh, and fight your way to MAYBE get new ones, too." But, hey, I shouldn't complain, that's just *wonderful* design. Here, let me hoover up to a dev for it. |
Let me add that there was no new costumes released in this issue. *Shakes fist while grabbing the butter from the fridge*
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I think the problem is in the assumption that all players have the same tools at their disposal. Some challenges require changes in individual gameplay or tweaks to an individual's build. Some challenges require changes in team gameplay or tweaks to a team's AT composition. Some challenges require mass coordination between leagues of players.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
Related to that is the idea that some people seem to hate MMOs that might actually challenge them to come up with new strategies to overcome new situations. They'd rather float through content without having to think instead of facing something new and learning how to deal with it.
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Soloers only have access to the first. People with few friends who mostly PUG only have access to the first and second. That leaves a lot of people who are completely unable to access the third. For those of us without 20+ trusted friends, raid content is unfun if not impossible. And there's nothing we can do to improve the situation.
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Basically there's nothing the Devs can really do about that player mindset other than to march forward and drag those people kicking and screaming as we go. 
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...
New Webcomic -- Genocide Man
Life is funny. Death is funnier. Mass slaughter can be hilarious.
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Again, just because you don't finish the ITF or the Kahn or the STF doesn't mean you haven't gotten rewards the whole way through.
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
They can also FAIL the final part of the raid and STILL get special bonuses. Unlike TFs. Unless you can point me to a recent tf where failing it gave you a notice of the well.
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Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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To use a more accurate analogy, however, you won't get merits or a component from a failed ITF.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Again, just because you don't finish the ITF or the Kahn or the STF doesn't mean you haven't gotten rewards the whole way through.
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The Trials are like an ITF that, even if you fail, you still get given merits.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Raid groups in the industry are being downsized because of the difficulty of making a large coordinated team. The idea of turning the clock back to 2005 is very interesting to say the least by Paragon studios.
I have completed a successful Lambda with an Inv scrapper. I died, but so did everybody. The mobs that swarm around Marauder make short work of any powerset.
Necrobond - 50 BS/Inv Scrapper made in I1
Rickar - 50 Bots/FF Mastermind
Anti-Muon - 42 Warshade
Ivory Sicarius - 45 Crab Spider
Aber ja, nat�rlich Hans nass ist, er steht unter einem Wasserfall.
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Uh, voicing one's opinion is the first action one should take. It is not immature to give rapid feedback, especially when you are a paying customer.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
I'm asking people not to voice their opinions until they've had some time to experience the trials and formulate decent opinions from experience.
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It is reasonable to wait a few weeks and acquire experience with the new content before deciding whether or not to press the 'cancel account' button.
...
New Webcomic -- Genocide Man
Life is funny. Death is funnier. Mass slaughter can be hilarious.
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These have nothing to do with each other. You said "I've seen this before" in response to me defending that I'm not telling other people how to think.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
So does realizing "Hey, some of these people might NOT be seeing this for the first time as of yesterday" and calling the post pointing that out a "non sequitur."
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Some people have seen this before, that's great. The people complaining about difficulty are the ones that haven't. You're complaining about the system which I fail to see as anything different than what we've already had.
If you don't like it, there's really only one way to tell the devs.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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Originally Posted by Miss Chief
and read up on how to do it? Yeah, Well done Paragon!
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Reading is h a r d.
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This, frankly, is what worries me. |
Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
Or wave goodbye as they go somewhere else.
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This *is* - despite what Dechs and a few others want to believe - a big change from what we've had before. If it's just "incarnate related challenges" thrown behind it - well, just like PVP, if you dont' like it, you can ignore it.
If they tie the "Pending since Issue 6" (mentioned w/Shivans, introduced with Bloody Bay in I6) Coming Storm behind it, where you MUST be an Incarnate to do jack with it? (And I don't mean a side "oh, you can see them froma few miles away" mission, or a new-Maria "You're a third-string wannabe now" attitude in the writing if you're not Omega-slotted, full-branched, etc.)
We know, thanks to Tin Mage and Apex, that they'll be MORE than happy to introduce mechanics to screw people over *even more* (see "Negative level shift") if you aren't slotted the way the devs want.
Do that to content pending for years... yeah. I don't forsee a good result if they do that. Despite what Dechs may think, I *am* sitting and waiting to see if I can just ignore the system, or if I have to bid the game a sad farewell from these sorts of changes.
Doesnt' mean I'm not going to make it abundantly clear I don't *like* these changes. Much like I don't think anyone has to guess my opinion on, oh, the VEAT arcs.
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I'm with Bill on this, might be post one for this one, couldn't somehow reactivate my forum account, it's liked to my NA account and I reactivated my EU account the other month. |
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
You know what they say about assuming, correct?
I'm the one who, for instance, LIKED having full strength Voids and Quantums. So don't ASSume that I'm complaining about difficulty. I *liked* taking Trapdoor - who had others complaining about difficulty - down on a g-damn GRAV KIN on SOs. I DISLIKE the whole "raid for gear to raid for gear" crap. You can't grasp how this is different from "well, you get merits you can use for IOs for Khan, too!" Yeah, well, I can also run Khan perfectly fine on SOs. I don't NEED IOs for Khan. Khan isn't balanced with the idea that you'll end up with an IOd out build. Khan isn't designed with the idea that you'll rerun it over and over and over and over and over and over and over to unlock those IOs, then churn it some MORE to get merits to make it reasonable. I can run Khan on pretty much any character with *anything* slotted and have an enjoyable time. I don't go into Khan "expecting to fail so I can get stuff to do better next time." Just looking at my 50s - the only ones who can run this content - I have 24 of them. I have to have a decent (and full, if last night's runs had anything to say about it) team to have a chance at doing anything but failing. I have to run it four times (given the "incarnate XP") to unlock ONE slot, four more for the other, then hope I've managed to "win" at some point to not have to grind *even more* for components - and if I need a level shift, I either have to have more INF on *each* of them than most have for a single uncommon COMPONENT, or hope that maybe a team will succeed to save that. Four times each. Eight times for one tree, then eight times (with different salvage, of course) for the OTHER tree, then if I'm short "threads," grind some more. And as I've said elsewhere - I'd ignore this, but given the Dev comments ("Hmm, what could be COMING that would have the well worried?") it sounds like I'll need to grind through this nonsense to see the *future* content evolving the game lore. You don't like me complaining, tough. I don't like where all this is pointing,and I don't like the design. We haven't HAD to grind with an "expect to fail until you get the stuff to do this" mentality before. We haven't had a "Well, once you have THESE IOs you can win" before. People complained about trapdoor out of being tough - I didn't. I soloed him on SOs. I AM NOT COMPLAINING ABOUT DIFFICULTY. I *am* complaining about the formerly, thankfully missing grind for gear to raid for gear to raid for gear nonsense getting added to this game. Edit: Also in a non-Khan fashion - how about "Well, there's a part of the encounter you need to get temp powers you might, MAYBE, get during the mission?" Three acids on the entire team. Since we weren't a full 12 or whatever it was, we had zero stun grenades for Marauder. That's sucktastic game design. "Oh, and fight your way to MAYBE get new ones, too." But, hey, I shouldn't complain, that's just *wonderful* design. Here, let me hoover up to a dev for it. |
But This games strength was its lack of needed gear to see content.
You can kiss goodbye to that now. All of you happy about this go ahead and cheer, but this puts me off recontinuing my sub. I have been more than happy to unlocck the alpha on 6 or 7 of my 50s so far, but I am not going to grind tfs with people for no good reason just because it unlocks a new shiney. In other games you only need 5 people to see a lot of the end game content and at the most 10 or 20. Their games don't teand to go laggy when you have a full team and spawns all over, unlike this one.
I thought the Hami was just one great big ball of dog mess when it ignored all the players abilities just to be hard. Now it looks like we have whole TF's that do it...and unlike the Hami, you need to do them to level.....great....well done devs, what a sucktastic idea. Makes me wish I hadn't come back
British Battler
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First, no, there's not "really only one way to tell the devs." If all you can say is "If you don't like it, leave," then go take a long walk off a short pier. Because, guess what, I *am* telling the devs that I don't like it. I have every right to, and YOU not liking me doing so - well, tough titty. |
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
These have nothing to do with each other. You said "I've seen this before" in response to me defending that I'm not telling other people how to think.
Some people have seen this before, that's great. The people complaining about difficulty are the ones that haven't. You're complaining about the system which I fail to see as anything different than what we've already had. If you don't like it, there's really only one way to tell the devs. |
Let me make this REALLY simple for you. Here, see if you can follow along.
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Originally Posted by you
I'm sorry you cannot grasp that complaining is an action. To stop complaining would not change how you think, it would just be a lot quieter around here until you got your thoughts in order.
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Originally Posted by me
Is this the first time I've seen it?
No. Have I not liked it since beta? Yes. |
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Originally Posted by you
Well that was non sequitur.
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Originally Posted by you making an Assumption
Some people have seen this before, that's great. The people complaining about difficulty are the ones that haven't
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So let me spell out what you missed again:
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Originally Posted by me
Have I not liked it since beta? Yes. |
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Originally Posted by you
The people complaining about difficulty are the ones that haven't
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Good post, and welcome to the forums. |
Originally Posted by Battler
I'm with Bill on this, might be post one for this one, couldn't somehow reactivate my forum account, it's liked to my NA account and I reactivated my EU account the other month.
But This games strength was its lack of needed gear to see content. You can kiss goodbye to that now. All of you happy about this go ahead and cheer, but this puts me off recontinuing my sub. I have been more than happy to unlocck the alpha on 6 or 7 of my 50s so far, but I am not going to grind tfs with people for no good reason just because it unlocks a new shiney. In other games you only need 5 people to see a lot of the end game content and at the most 10 or 20. Their games don't teand to go laggy when you have a full team and spawns all over, unlike this one. I thought the Hami was just one great big ball of dog mess when it ignored all the players abilities just to be hard. Now it looks like we have whole TF's that do it...and unlike the Hami, you need to do them to level.....great....well done devs, what a sucktastic idea. Makes me wish I hadn't come back British Battler |
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No, that was IE, "I'm not telling people how to think."|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
IE, "Wait and don't make a kneejerk complaint."
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
So let me spell out what you missed again:
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This is getting to where mod action should be taken. I'm done here. Feel free to take it to PMs.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Quote:
I was thinking it was "nice" to be back to a few times a week with rome friends, playing a lot of that new Rift at the moment, but loved this gazme sine 2005
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Originally Posted by Gemini_2099
Good post, and welcome to the forums.
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Show me where I'm complaining about difficulty versus direction and design. You're normally better at comprehending what's being said than this.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Isn't that funny. You said you weren't complaining about the difficulty.
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Need I really spell this out?|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Show me where I'm complaining about difficulty versus direction and design.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
So let me spell out what you missed again:
Originally Posted by you Have I not liked it since beta? Yes. Originally Posted by me The people complaining about difficulty are the ones that haven't |
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Quote:
And what is part of what people are putting in as difficulty?|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Look at my quote. My assumption is that the people complaining about difficulty are not ones that have seen it in beta. You say your quote is in contention with mine because you've been complaining since beta. You've also said you were not complaining about the difficulty.
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The design.
The "Grind while you fail until you've ground enough to unlock this and fill it."
The "Designed with level shift in mind" vibe.
Design and direction.
PLUS, you threw that at me as a "Shut up and stop complaining."
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But that's not the design. You don't need to grind while you fail if you do it right. You can succeed right now. Without the extra incarnate powers. It's just difficult.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
And what is part of what people are putting in as difficulty?
The design. The "Grind while you fail until you've ground enough to unlock this and fill it." The "Designed with level shift in mind" vibe. Design and direction. |
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
I fail to see what an alternative to the new endgame content would have been. Another "ITF" would have been more of the same. We did 4 raids last night and completed 2 of them. I like that you get rewards during the raid and not just for completing it. My Fort actually did fairly well. Yea I got hit more often than usual but I didn't faceplant constantly. At the moment the way to progress is pretty narrow, but we already know they will roll out more trials (some larger some smaller). I even like the concept behind the "raids" being repeated. We tried to raid Lambda Sector and failed but we can always try again another day.
IMHO I think this is a great evolution for the endgame.
Level 50s: to many to remember at this point
Unlocking and crafting 2 slots on the first day is such a major grind! If you don't like the system as a whole, that's fine and is a valid complaint. I know there's only 2 trials available with more on the way which can be a bummer if you don't like repeating content. However, it's only a major grind if you allow it to be and feel you need to have all the tiers as quickly as possible.
[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]
Quote:
I'd suggest you send in a /petition because you appear to be the only person playing issue 20 that doesn't gain Incarnate XP during these trials based on your feedback. I assume when you die or when your team finally gives up because you keep dying, you get a message that the game is erasing all progress you are making towards Incarnate abilities, right?|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
What the hell do you think I do?
And die again. And die again. And again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and bloody again because the team is getting killed off by the huge mob of Battle Orb spamming Bosses and LTs! We killed the Portals! We killed the other mobs! We take on Marauder and DIE. What the ruddy hell do you suggest, oh font of all bleeding wisdom? |
It doesn't take a non-stop farm to unlock the abilities that will make this easier for everyone. It takes 3-4 runs, even unsuccessful ones.
Current Badge Hunter: Plot Device (Rad/Thermal/Dark) - 1,268 Xbox Live: Friggin Taser
King of Electricity, Lead Inmate running the Carl and Sons asylum, the "Man" behind the Establishment, Given Honor in Hat Form By Paragon City (Favorite Forum Poster 2006!), Master of Ceremonies of the Fair Use Law podcast
Stepping out of the thread for a while. I think the things I'm arguing against are getting confused wth each other during the argument. Plus, I'm getting annoyed at Dechs, who I do generally like, and I'd like to avoid that getting out of hand.
Going to leave with this.
I think this is bad design. I've said so before, and hopefully clearly, as to why, and what I'm worried about for the future direction (and, if you will, "location" - and I don't mean Praetoria) of content in this game.
I should be able to take a PUG in, non-Judgement/Lore/Interface/etc. 'd - in fact, by design, without an Alpha - at minimum size and feel like I'm making SOME progress in the encounter instead of hitting a brick wall, as long as the group pays attention and works together. This just hasn't happened. I don't even mind *losing* the fight. But there's a difference between "didn't make enough progress" and the feeling - which I'm *not* the only one having - of "Must grind through the slots to really beat."
Yes, in a week it'll be easier. Why should be painfully obvious, and it's not "well, someone found 'the trick' to it." Some people *like* treadmills, after all. But in a game that until now has encouraged alts... that treadmill shouldn't feel required. I shouldn't feel like I "have to" pick a 50 and ignore the other 24 - not to mention the other alts - to have a chance to see the content (and be able to deal with future content.)
Yes, I *am* concerned that a storyline that's been hinted at since 2005 is going to have major parts locked away behind this system, given dev comments. And that I'll need to have major parts of this system unlocked to have a chance to do jack in them. I'll note the Batallion (which would have "required IOs to defeat") were dropped - and yet the team seems to be making an about face with this.
And no, I will not just sit back and watch.
This is such a stupid, stupid sword to die on making idle threats against an MMO.
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So where do we draw this line? How much dumbing down of the content would you like before the game turns into a superhero version of Progress Quest?| I should be able to take a PUG in, non-Judgement/Lore/Interface/etc. 'd - in fact, by design, without an Alpha - at minimum size and feel like I'm making SOME progress in the encounter instead of hitting a brick wall, as long as the group pays attention and works together. This just hasn't happened. I don't even mind *losing* the fight. But there's a difference between "didn't make enough progress" and the feeling - which I'm *not* the only one having - of "Must grind through the slots to really beat." |
You don't even have to do anything with your alts right now. Wait a week and most servers will have dozens of slotted up players running leagues in RWZ and looking for more. Their bonuses will make up for your defiant kicking and screaming into the end game and eventually you can leech off their success enough that you'd realize you have been making progress all along and this stupid "I WILL NOT STAND FOR ADDITIONAL CONTENT, GRRRRRRRR" act was a waste of your, and the forum's, time.
Current Badge Hunter: Plot Device (Rad/Thermal/Dark) - 1,268 Xbox Live: Friggin Taser
King of Electricity, Lead Inmate running the Carl and Sons asylum, the "Man" behind the Establishment, Given Honor in Hat Form By Paragon City (Favorite Forum Poster 2006!), Master of Ceremonies of the Fair Use Law podcast
This requires maturity, though. I guess I am being ridiculous asking for something like this on the internet.
In all seriousness, though, I've run through Lambda three times so far, all with players with;
1) A good leader who was clued in and kept directions and comms going
2) Good players who know how their AT works and how to mesh with a team
3) Good characters with heavy IO builds and often level shifts
Having got to the final stage without too much issue, and then getting curbstomped in five seconds flat without it even being Marauder himself, I don't think it's unreasonable to be somewhat peturbed by that.
And the Artillery. Nothing will ever redeem the artillery, especially not when it punished MMs beyond any other AT.
Edit: And, while I may have only done this for the first time yesterday, as has been pointed out there are others who have been through the Beta of all this, who still dislike it. If that isn't an informed response, what is?