Soloability and End Game
Why can you even still see her posts? Seriously, a little /ignore goes a long way. It'd go farther if people would quit quoting her.
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Back on the subject of things that ought to be solo-able, but aren't: I've joined several PuG teams lately to help people get past Trapdoor, but I hadn't actually tried to solo him myself since the patch. I now understand why people are struggling so much. My SS/Invuln tanker knocked him into the lava, tagged him repeatedly with Envenomed Dagger, and still couldn't overcome his regen. Holy cow.
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I now understand why people are struggling so much. My SS/Invuln tanker knocked him into the lava, tagged him repeatedly with Envenomed Dagger, and still couldn't overcome his regen. Holy cow.
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After about, oh, 3-5 bifurcations, he stopped bifurcating. I thought that was “as intended”. I beat on him, I used up all my green inspirations, and by then, I had finally SLOWLY got him down. Now, I’m told, he never stops bifurcating. I didn’t do the lava thing, not knowing about it then. So, straight up “as intended” fight for an average or below average casual Joe… that’s gotta be brutal now…
Fair enough. Now, false modesty aside... are you an average player, or well above average? Are you representative of the average skill set of the playerbase? I'll believe whatever you say, otherwise, heh, there's no point asking...
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I just don't see that he's as much trouble as people want to think. I suppose if your vocabulary doesn't include the word 'bifurcate' you'll be pretty confused, I admit, but other than that? Don't see it.
Edit: If attention to IOs is an indication of the level of the player, most of the time I'm pretty happy with SOs and common IOs, or else picking up whole sets without really thinking about the details. It's only been recently that I've started using Mids aggressively to frankenslot characters or softcap them.
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
Just to put my two cents in, there does need to be a solo-focused story arc or two introduced that's gated for Incarnates. Something that'll actually be challenging. After all, team books are fun...but the best are the solo titles. And no, to those who want to say otherwise...that isn't in the game yet. It just plain isn't. Whether it has it's own shard reward at the end or not, sometimes you want your character to be the focus of the story, not the team. This isn't groups of adventurers running dungeons; this is Heroes...and Villains...doing superhuman feats of superhumanness. Sometimes that's best shown by being the one guy who takes down the unbeatable foe.
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Why can you even still see her posts? Seriously, a little /ignore goes a long way. It'd go farther if people would quit quoting her.
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Back to the topic at hand: there seems to be a definite desire for Incarnate solo story arcs, which I find very encouraging. Until this thread I hadn't seen much in the way of that kind of request. Here's to hoping the Devs implement something like it.
I'd prefer to get all eight shard checks the team gets if I overcome the same challenge solo that they do as a team.
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If a team beats one enemy, it gets 8 shard checks. (Note that if you were a member of that team, you would get one shard check for that enemy.)
Under your proposed system, you beat one enemy solo and get 8 shard checks.
If you are not willing to admit that this would actively disincentivize teaming, then there is zero conversation to be had here.
A "team" and a "character" are not interchangeable units of information when it comes to evaluating drops, especially when the drops are not tradeable. The team is not creating a larger pool of resources for the community, as is the case with recipes and salvage. Only the drops received by an individual matter. Continuing to pretend that the number received by "the team" matters is, at best, fanciful.
The relevant data point is the number of shards received by an average team member, because that is the metric that should be compared to the soloist. I know you love your "8 times as many" argument, but it does not mean what you portray it as meaning, and I find your continued insistence on it to be intellectually dishonest.
I'm still trying to process your suggestion that you might be morally superior to people who team. Frankly? You've flummoxed me pretty completely with it.
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Let's take "challenge" down to its simplest level: Defeat one enemy.
If a team beats one enemy, it gets 8 shard checks. (Note that if you were a member of that team, you would get one shard check for that enemy.) Under your proposed system, you beat one enemy solo and get 8 shard checks. If you are not willing to admit that this would actively disincentivize teaming, then there is zero conversation to be had here. A "team" and a "character" are not interchangeable units of information when it comes to evaluating drops, especially when the drops are not tradeable. The team is not creating a larger pool of resources for the community, as is the case with recipes and salvage. Only the drops received by an individual matter. Continuing to pretend that the number received by "the team" matters is, at best, fanciful. The relevant data point is the number of shards received by an average team member, because that is the metric that should be compared to the soloist. I know you love your "8 times as many" argument, but it does not mean what you portray it as meaning, and I find your continued insistence on it to be intellectually dishonest. |
Yeah, I know, pointing out the obvious - but even the difficulty slider doesn't quite even that out. Generally, a team of six will still get more shard checks in an hour than a soloist (barring, say, the IO'd out AOE-monster scrapper) at x6, since they'll be finishing the mobs and mission faster.
No real way to "balance" that out, and it shouldn't even be attempted, IMHO. The slider's close enough - run where you're most comfortable and most "efficient," if that's 0x1 or +4x8.
I'd prefer to get all eight shard checks the team gets if I overcome the same challenge solo that they do as a team.
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The devs have always used the philosophy of aggregate balancing instead of individual balancing probably because the game was never balanced to begin with and to microbalance every segment of the game is likely too resource intensive from the publisher's point of view.
I don't think it is perfect but it should be in the realm of workable for 90-95% of the population.
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
I did some research that is published in another thread on the solo drop rate, I was averaging 1 shard per 10 x5 no bosses (suited my toon at the time, psi bosses make a mess of a spines/fire while they're good at mowing down minions) borea missions.
I also had a period of doing this earning more than 200 V-merits while earning only one shard.
Some rough calculations indicated I was unlucky (worse than 1 in 10 chance), but things would be seriously helped by either of 2 things.
1) Multiply the number of shards required to do stuff, and the drop rate by 5 or 10. This will make your shard earning more consistent.
2) put a streakbreaker in, if you've killed way more shard drop eligible foes than you should have to, next kill drops a shard automatically.
My solo earning is about 1 per 2 hours, in that time I could do 2 kill most ITFs and have 15 shards and 2 components (4 shards worth each). Is it really intended that you earn them 23 times faster on a team ? And that was with me on a damage dealing toon.
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hi,
first to a previous post the DEVS DID reduce the street mob xp and number of mobs, to stop the screaming by the players they added the 1/2 debt to missions.
and to a earlier post of mine, if a lot of the content requires larger than normal teams, and you are on a mostly empty server, then that is a bad thing, and no paying for a bunch of transfers is not a solution
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Devs need to read Fiery_Redeemer in this post because it would help them understand the range of players in this game.
- A friend of mine *would not team* except with two out of game friends. If we weren't online, he'd solo. Anything. Including an Emp/dark def. (Pre dual builds.)
- Several friends of mine won't team unless half the team is on their global (IE if they're incredibly stupid the PuG element can be kicked and we'll still be fine)
- I will often solo especially at lower levels to learn the AT and with certain ATs because I prefer it (EG my MMs and stalkers). If I'm in the mood I will team/TF; often I prefer a small team. I will RARELY Raid because at least some of them are going to be afk/incompetent/on my global ignore for whatever reason.
- Some SGs mainly Raid
That's a wide range of existing players. These are all people NC should be looking to keep onboard. It's easier to keep a customer than get a new one, remember.
All new content should be available to all of the above. No-one should be forced into a playstyle they don't like because frankly they're no good to anyone. No disrespect meant to anyone by that but if you don't enjoy something the odds are you aren't good at it.
(I include myself in the above. Some days the thought of teaming just ... *hide*. If I forced my solo-ing friend on to a team he'd be frustrated, annoyed and wouldn't have fun. Why pay money to not have fun?)
I see the game moving away from 'you can solo any mission with any AT' to 'you need a team or x gear or both'.
If you find content to easy then by all means turn up your difficulty. It doesn't mean new content should be so hard that others can't do it solo on their character of choice.
(As an aside I do have a worry that as the incarnates unlock that the solo-teamer-speeder will become more of a problem. We've all seen them; join a TF or team and watch the Uber Player zing off, solo all the objectives and leave those of us who are 'normal' in the dust.)
EDIT:
I give another nod to the ignore feature. It gets rid of a lot of the non-contributing posts in this thread.
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- A friend of mine *would not team* except with two out of game friends. If we weren't online, he'd solo. Anything. Including an Emp/dark def. (Pre dual builds.)
- Several friends of mine won't team unless half the team is on their global (IE if they're incredibly stupid the PuG element can be kicked and we'll still be fine) - I will often solo especially at lower levels to learn the AT and with certain ATs because I prefer it (EG my MMs and stalkers). If I'm in the mood I will team/TF; often I prefer a small team. I will RARELY Raid because at least some of them are going to be afk/incompetent/on my global ignore for whatever reason. |
I see the game moving away from 'you can solo any mission with any AT' to 'you need a team or x gear or both'. If you find content to easy then by all means turn up your difficulty. It doesn't mean new content should be so hard that others can't do it solo on their character of choice. |
You need to make up your mind
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You know, I don't think anyone is against the idea of soloable Incarnate content. There's just some epic levels of strawmanning and martyrdom going on in this thread.
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And this quote from Positron seems to indicate that the vast majority of players are cool with the Incarnate system:
"I have to say I am happy that the Incarnate system seems to be having the exact effect we'd hoped for in the game, and I can only say it's going to get better when we release the Incarnate Trials in Issue 20!" |
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The shard award system is contrasted with the purple drop rate, which heavily favours the solo x8 (at -1 or 0) player
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Like if the solo types are so keen on "fairness" between their way and the normal play style, shouldn't they be campaigning for a big reduction in purple drops for soloers, or a major increse in purple drops for teams?
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I wonder why there hasn't been more rage about that?
Like if the solo types are so keen on "fairness" between their way and the normal play style, shouldn't they be campaigning for a big reduction in purple drops for soloers, or a major increse in purple drops for teams? |
It isn't really an issue of "fairness".
I for one, and apparently others, am not the least concerned about the drop rate (though I am not sure I understand the reasoning for it...).
I want incarnate level/focused solo friendly content.
Someone used the comic analogy nicely earlier. I enjoy appearing in the team issues, but my solo titles sell nicely too thank you.
Maybe I have never considered it a problem, one thing I liked when I read was how the "well" responded more towards the will of a person and didn't care if the person was good or evil, That kind of stood out for me. I liked how that sounded.
The shards? The well has seen fit to drop shards on me, don't really know if its my diff settings or something intuitive coded into the game. Maybe both. Who knows? I have never sought to try to find a pattern of drop rate or number crunch, it just "seemed" to drop for whatever I set out to do. Random.
My thing is I like the solo-ability. I love doing things solo, just as much as teaming, I'm just not in a position to -team- as much as I used to, so making end game content challenging <yet possible for solo> works out well for me. I would like to see this trend continue.
for example, I was about to get a team going to take out Lady winter, just as I got the team assembled and half of them showed up, my brother walks through my front door and I hit the switch on the back of my power supply and I'm out of the house rushing to a RL emergency.
I didn't even get a chance to give a reason for bailing.
If I was running solo, I would have just went afk inside the mission until I got back.
Solo is important to me.
Ignoring anyone is a mistake. You might miss something viral to your cause.
here is another angle for solo
there are times when I want to sit down and really get immersed in gameplay, I really want to sit and read every little detail, go through every cutscene and get my digs into reading whats going on.
that really doesn't sit too well for a large team that is ready move on to the next mob.
I consider anything lvl 50 to be end game content, and that goes for tf's as well. One thing that I would like to see ,-Keep in mind just my opinion-, I would like to see things like the ITF made solo-able. I would really like to take on that challenge. I'm hearing things about incarnates that will allow players to solo av's and the likes, so I dig the idea of soloing an ITF without having to bug people to join a team to get it started. that goes back to what I was saying about getting my digs into an actual storyline instead of "ready for mob #2"
I feel <again just my opinion> that a mechanic like that would do wonders for the longevity of the game as a whole. my angle really isn't about trying to reap the rewards from a solo TF, my opinion: Alot more people would be able to do end game things solo meaning alot more people would be playing, hence...longevity.
/endrant
Ignoring anyone is a mistake. You might miss something viral to your cause.
I see the game moving away from 'you can solo any mission with any AT' to 'you need a team or x gear or both'.
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I19 added 2 TFs, one level 50 story arc, two mid-20s story arcs, a repeatable mission contact in Praetoria, the old Calvin Scott arc in Ouroboros, a number of new Tips and Morality missions spanning levels 20-50, and three soloable zone events accessable to all levels.
It seems to me that CoX has always had a proportion of gated, team-limited content, and that the latest content has been spread over a full range of levels and primarily open to solo play. As someone who mostly solos myself, I'm not worried.
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Raids are something that have been asked for quite frequently for quite a while, and in I20, the devs are giving us some more.
I'm sure there'll be some soloable content too, just like in every other Issue - but the focus of I20 is Incarnate Trials.
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