Soloability and End Game

Is that right? Heh, i just checked in-game and one of my 50s only has 138 hours on it. So if that's correct, it's equivalent of getting 3 alts from 1-50 to fill 1 out of 10 incarnate slots on 1 alt. Hmm, that's...truly discouraging.

Having taught students and being, in some fashion, a professional writer, I have to say this: When you're expressing complex ideas in a clear fashion you need a lot of text. What Arcana (and given that she's probably one of the most articulate posters I've seen on any forum on the internet, even if I don't always agree with her) said was about complex design philosophy and any time you're going to boil it down to what you said you're going to lose a lot of resolution, to the extent that the image that she was trying to paint with her words wouldn't even be the same image anymore.

The school of thought that you are espousing is the proverbial ten word answer when things are rarely simple enough to express using ten words or less without losing a lot of resolution of concept.

What she was saying is more complex and goes back to design philosophy of reward structure of MMO design and, to me at least, it makes complete sense. There are very few dedicated soloers in this game and even fewer dedicated team players. At some point everyone but the most ridiculously team oriented defender will probably solo in this game. The idea that solo-ers need the same reward benefits that teamed players get means that players that both solo and team will see very little reason to put the time in to actually make a team, which is at least in some way shape or form a gated activity (gated by time/commitment/willingness). It takes *effort* to get on a team (and more effort to make a team), which is at the heart of the MMO experience. If the purpose isn't to create in some way shape or form a kind of shared reality then you may as well have created a solo console game, and that's not what the MMO is supposed to be. That's not even what CoH has ever been since I've played the game (I signed up in I9).


I could be totally off base, and completely missing the whole point of this, in which case I apologize for the above paragraph. I just worked a fourteen hour day and right now I am dumb. Anyway, my whole point is, don't try and reduce a complicated and nuanced position into a much shorter statement. Shorter does not equal concise.

It's a wonder you were banned once. I mean seriously. Every post I've seen by you in this and every other thread on this topic has been trollbait flame posts designed to attack anyone with an opinion opposite to you.

It's just that you used so many words to say, well, so very, very little.

Quite impressive, actually. Reminds me of some politicians I've heard, as well as some causist activists trying desperately to keep people from recognizing the utter lack of substance behind their position. I mean, it's not like you'll use up all the words and not leave any for the rest of us.

I just wish you'd actually said something meaningful and useful.

For example, an explanation of how me getting my Incarnate goodies at a similar rate to team players actually infringes on other player's gaming experience. What does it take away from team players? Does the group content suck so badly they just can't get people to play? That's not been my experience, I've seen no flaws in the team stuff other than the fact I just don't like teaming with people I don't hang out with in real life.

So how does it harm team players? I mean, I'm can see some howling fanbois sitting up at night chewing their toenails in bowel quivering nerdrage at the thought that somebody somewhere is having playing the game differently, but I don't think that represents most people who like teaming. Except maybe that other fellow who clearly gets upset when solo players get to have fun too.

If the Incarnate system was simply another form of loot that had an equivalent counterpart (like PvE vs PvP loot in some games), I wouldn't care. But the Incarnate system is not loot, it is the only means of advancement beyond 50. So if you care to attempt to justify forcing me to team to develop my toons anything resembling an efficient manner, then say so rather than just blowing so much hot air around while pretending to communicate.

Yet I have never attempted to clutter up a feedback thread for the devs with a shameless rebellion plea.

Eiko-chan is a predictable and broken record at this time and I'm kindly inserting my two cents to balance out her posts for the sanity of the force that is this forum. If we allow her and the 2-3 other fanatical solo posters to control the dialogue, it will never end because they will never get what they want.

We're playing a game that hasn't had a major system-wide nerf that affected all in issues. We're getting something a lot of people have asked for. And it's not enough. And it will never be enough until everyone gets the best rewards for doing next to nothing and no one has any reason to actually challenge themselves and play to the ends of their own skills and limits.

And then when everyone is super, no one will be.

That's the future making everything solo will bring. That's the future every Eiko-chan post brings us one step closer to: a City of Completely Arbitrary, Palette Swapped EB Fights With No Real Risk And A Far Too Great Reward So Everyone Can Feel Special For Minimal Work.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on how much of Arcana's post was substance, and how much was window dressing. My point was that a complicated and nuanced position is often expressed to disguise an unpalatable, simple position like "We're going to make you team because we can't get enough people to team otherwise." See aforementioned smelly fat kid who can't get anyone to dance with him unless Teacher "volunteers" some poor girl.

I know that content takes work, particularly balancing content between solo and team, PvP and PvE. When the rewards are different but not necessarily superior between styles, that's a balanced game serving all members. When people who have different preferences, fish or fowl or good red meat, can come to the same restaruant and feast, that's Good Stuff. Working to please both solo players and team players is one of the reasons CoX is still around, still so popular... so I see it as being counterproductive to encourage slanting the menu away from either faction. Giving everyone what they want keeps the most paying subscribers on board.

We agree that few players are pure, exclusive, solo players or team players. Most people will team for no other reason than they just like teaming. Less downtime, companionship, witty banter, all that fun stuff.

It's better to let people meet in the middle when and how they like, for their own reasons, out of their pure desire to do so rather than to use chokeholds to compel them.

Which is more fun... a group of people teaming because they feel like it, because they like teaming with each other, or a group of people teaming "just long enough for me to get this gragfrfafsnaten stupid drop I need"?

In this case, we're not talking cash or equipment, but the opportunity to advance a character. Leveling by any other name. And I have a problem with players of one play style being shoehorned into another playstyle to satisfy someone else's view of how the game should be expierenced. Remember the days of "Corpse runs, getting ganked, and hell levels are fun, really! You just don't know you like them, but you'd miss them if we got rid of them..."? Things like "encouraging teaming" by applying a leveling penalty to players who don't adopt a certain playstyle are the sign of developers who are cutting corners or rushing things.

Make the team content interesting in it's own right, and people will come of their own free will.

Make it good enough people rant about it, say "Dude! You gotta come do this TF with me! This thing Ghost Widow did was just AWESOME!" That's a good game development strategy. Not "Well, we can't get enough people to team, so we're gonna make it so you can either team, or just farm stuff for so you could have just found a mate, raise 5 children and taught them to play so you could team with them."

I think the problem isn't the game in this situation.

Other people seem to be able to find a group of regular teammates (be it a SG, a coalition, or even a global channel) just easily. It's not that hard to join a single server's Badges or TF global channel, answer one call for a TF looking for a person or two, and make some new friends.

I've also been part of a group of about 8 people who have played this game since launch. We've done every TF repeatedly. We used to run Moonfire and Hess back to back for fun pre-Inventions and we certainly weren't getting a drop for it. We team because we're friends and we enjoy teaming with each other. And even this week with people clamoring for the WTF, we've done ITFs and Renault SFs simply because one of us asked or put forth the idea to do so.

Because we're players who enjoy each others company. Not because the Eye of the Leviathan drops fat loot or we desperately needed that Coral Hammer temp power.

My situation, judging by the SG forums and the Server forums on this very board and global channels in game, seems to be the majority. Your situation seems to be one where you don't want to put any work into changing.

The fact that you seem to generalize anyone who does TFs and SFs regularly as a person who has to force his family members to join him against their will or dual box to be able to do so says way more about you than it does about the game.

Reminds me of the broken record of alarmist rhetoric of the Pure Groupers, the people who flipped out over increased solo content, over the difficulty slider.... "If they don't have to fight elite bosses, if they can drop missions, then they'll never team! Nobody will play with me! The game will die forever! WAAAAGH! SOLO WILL KILL THE GAME BEFORE THE SECOND...errr... THIRD...ummm...Fourth...Er... fifth? aniversery!"

The game has been providing solo friendly content for years, and has yet to catch fire, fall over and sink into a swamp, all souls feared lost.

Still usually just translates to "I can't have fun if'n I can't make people play the way I like to, they shouldn't oughta be allowed to play different frum how I like."

Right now - right at this moment - the leveling process from 1 - 50 is shorter if all you do is team from 1 - 50. Is that broken?

Wow. Coming from the guy who judges soloers as people who want everything for free, that's pretty funny.

I don't judge most people who like to raid or do TF's or just group all the time as needy or pushy. I don't really think about them, I'm perfectly happy to leave them to their own happy devices generally, and maybe join in once in a while when I know some of the people involved, or just have the hankering. I've clearly advocated content for both, rather than superiority for one faction or the other. I've also recognized that most players like to do both.

The people I'm being critical of are those who are opposed to letting solo players enjoy and advance as much as team players do. The people who are so very, very threatened by solo players that can't tolerate solo's having fun and leveling. The people who cry out for the devs to "make them come teeeeeeaaaammmm! Make them play like I do, or I can't have no fun! Don't let them have fun alone, or it'll ruin my game! Make someone come dance with me, because nobody wants to othwise..."

My villain group has slowly left for other pastures - mostly other games - over the past couple of years. For the past several months, there haven't been enough of us active to even think about running Strike Forces like we used to. Nowadays, I'm lucky if I see one of them while I'm playing.

Okay then: Put up or shut up.

Instead of twisting my words around or trying to match wits with Acana, why don't you tell me how the developers can make an Incarnate System that's solo friendly and quick to advance but doesn't make earning the awards trivial?

So far, the only other suggestion in this thread other than "Make Incarnate Salvage craftable from shards" (which they did, whether you like it or not) has been Eiko-chan saying they should add the same Incarnate salvage to mid-game story arcs as one gets from doing task forces. Since these story arcs are both incredibly easy and repeatable, this is not an answer. And since not everyone can solo every story arc (especially ones with EBs or AVs in them), that doesn't make Incarnate salvage and powers available for all.

You tell me how you'd fix it. You've already shown that you are a prodigy at making friends and influencing people, let's see if you have a natural flare for game system design, too.

And what have you done to make new friends?

I was part of the 3rd biggest SG on Pinnacle. Over time, people left for other games or for real life. We went from close to 30-40 people down to a core of maybe 8 or 10.

So I joined a PUG or a TF and if I liked a person on the team, I dropped them a global friend invite and kept in touch. It's not that hard to do and if you don't do it, you have no one else to blame but yourself. And you certainly shouldn't demand the developers change the course of the game because of your aversion to doing so.

Depends on how much shorter. Bent maybe. But I'd have to know the ratio to really give you an opinion.

Group, you have less downtime and can get some pretty impressive synergy between complementary builds and classes. Missions completed faster, monsters killed faster, etc. Relying on that to make leveling faster I have no problem with. Scrapper playing Knockup Skeet with the Blaster is always great fun. Dovetailing powers, powers that are more effective hen your teamed are fine too. (I can always pick other powers, after all, for a solo build, and have those in my team build.) That is what should encourage grouping, not reliance on Bonus Extry Experience and Loot Just Plain For Grouping. Make grouping more rewarding because groups are more effective is fine, not by just throwing more experience, loot, and influence at people just because they group.

I'm willing to compromise to an extent, just not the extent that those holding the "Solo Will Kill The Game" crowd demands.

A 45-60 minute average KTF this week would save you 88 Shards and 100 million Inf, plus give you bonus merits - and if you spent 60-90 minutes on one average WST once a week, you'd get the 4th Tier Alpha in less than a month, and all for only 5-6 hours total playing time for the whole period.

Once again, you oversimplify to fit your own narrative. I never said "Solo will kill the game."

I said "Making Everything Solo Will Kill The Game."

Why? Because with the amount of powersets, ATs, and power choices that can be made in this game, making content that everyone can universally solo will lead to a series of watered down and heavily simplified missions. There's no two ways around this. This isn't a solo player console game where, if the devs decide they want to reward the player more on level 5, they balance an entire fight around specific abilities they program Wolverine or Spiderman to do.

There is absolutely no way to program an entire game so that everything can be solo'd by everyone and still include thousands of power choice options. Therefore, some of it will require teaming. And, in fact, some of it has required teaming since day one in this game.

So absolutely nothing changing with issue 20 except the people who choose to slow their own progression because they shun off teaming for whatever reason will have to take longer to achieve what more active players can. Once again, with accolades and Hami-Os and Vanguard Merits, this is absolutely nothing new to this game.

Uh, I never said that.
Nothing. Introverts make friends slowly.

I'm still recovering from losing them. The death blow only came down a month ago. I can't just grab a new person and decide they are my friend and run with it. It takes a while for me to warm up to anyone. Most of the people I've interacted with on the forums that I feel friendly with play on other servers. I'm not yet ready to give up my characters to move servers to try to play with them.

In another thread, you accused me of assuming everyone wanted what I did (which I haven't - I simply don't see how me getting what I want hurts anyone else. I've never advocated removing task forces, or raids.) Perhaps I'm not the one projecting; you seem to think everyone should have as easy a time making friends and connections as you do.

I'm glad it comes easy to you, and that you have a group of people you like to play with. That's awesome. Seriously.

That doesn't mean I have to play the way you do, though.

Twisting your words? You're the master of projection here, claiming we want the game to cater to us and only us, that we want things for free. Evading inconvenient points and racking up an impressive phalanx of straw men. We're perfectly happy to let you get your incarate however you like, you're the one having a hissyfit at solo players "ruining the game."

Solo-friendly arcs dropping incarnate salvage is a fine answer, it's just one you don't like because solo players could then advance at a comparable pace which somehow diminishes your enjoyment of the game. More work for the devs, writing more missions and the like, but that's what we pay subscriptions for.

Make the drops available without requiring an EB or AV fight. It's not like people can sell them in the auction house, so even if someone is farming them via repeat grindhouse it won't "screw up the economy." It'll just mean somebody else got their incarnate stuff in a way you don't like. I don't like the repeat mission grind, but it's no skin off my nose if someone else does. I'm not going to see someone incarnate slotted walk past and then encrappen my trousers in rage shrieking "He just grinded for that! He didn't play like I do!" I'm going to say "eh, whatever, he didn't take anyone else's opportunities away, didn't screw with anybody's game, it's his business."

Yes. And it's not out of line to think that the disparity between those two is a bit much and does not contribute in a healthy manner to a supposed "solo option."

It's just everything else in the last 10 pages of this thread that's become out of line. I'm with Leandro.

Now this is something new I've learned. Maybe because I've not done a task force since The Bad Old Days, I still think of task forces as an hour spent waiting for a tank, then a healer, then stopping in the middle for an half hour to replace someone who had to leave, with a few hours of missioney stuff mixed in. I remember TFs being an all day nightmare of irritation. An hour and change fits into the time I can set aside for Uninterupted Gaming.

Barring wife aggro and dog peeing.

Agreed on both counts.

That also means you shouldn't earn rewards in the same time frame as I do either. You running a story arc that, if you fail, you just have to restart is not the same risk as running a raid that can fail and be forced to start back at the beginning of the rebuilding process. Or, as we've already seen with tonight's testing, getting a full team together and simply failing because the trial requires new strategies from you that you do not know yet.

And if you read back in this very thread, you will see you, yourself, posting that Vincent Ross' story arc seems good enough to drop Incarnate Salvage (after a nerf to its difficulty in the final battle that you pointed out). He is a level 20-29 contact, hence mid-level.

This is a game based on superheroes and supervillains. They've given you a way to be the most powerful villain there is, it's just going to take a little hard work and time. Just like it would take Batroc the Leaper to do so compared to the members of the Cabal putting their efforts together to kill all heroes.

But I'm going to stop here and take Leandro's advice: we're never going to see eye to eye. Is it a clash between an extrovert and an introvert? Doubtful. But it certainly is a case where I see there's no end in sight here. There is never going to be a change or an addition made to this game that will appease you 100%, so your complaints and demands will never cease. I have no control over what the devs create or what you post, but I do have control over turning away from you and letting you complain in an echo chamber of your own creation.

So I will do that now. Best wishes and happy ranting.

I said that the design and story of that arc was perfect for what solo Incarnate content should look like. I did not say the arc should drop Incarnate salvage.