Soloability and End Game

If you had actually read it, and understood it, I addressed that specifically. I said its irrelevant. People are always saying "why should it matter what I get in an MMO if it doesn't affect anyone else?" And the answer is: nobody cares. Find a dev team that does, then come back. MMOs are not single player games connected by chat. They don't offer customized gameplay experiences disconnected from everyone elses. You don't get to decide what rewards you deserve to have. You get the rewards that the content you play awards. Those rewards will vary based on circumstance to a degree, but they will ultimately be based on a reward system that applies to everyone, and is systematically consistent across the entire game given the precise methodology that the reward system was constructed under. No exceptions for people who don't want to spend the time learning why.

Don't like it, don't play MMOs. All MMOs follow the same rules. All MMOs are likely to continue to follow those same rules indefinitely. It would be idiotic to do anything else. Tamper with the global expectations that on average groups of people have that the rules apply to everyone, and you play with fire. Put simply, since apparently you need it put simply, if a team of eight runs the LRSF and ends up getting the same reward that a single player gets running Smoke and Mirrors, just pack up the servers and put them on ebay now, while they still have resale value. No MMO can survive that sort of screwed up reward system.

See: Inequity Aversion.

That example would be as if the reward for a LRSF was a single SO enhancement of your choosing. I believe this is also the reason very few people do Hami raids anymore, except for kicks. You get the same reward from the LRSF, for which you only need 8 people, and the strategy is much simpler and doesn't require teams full of every type of AT.



Eiko-chan, hear me out. I agree with Arcana, and to a small degree, Taser; but I'm an introvert too. I see you saying things about yourself that apply directly to me. I'm weird in that I hate random people... but I love the action that comes from big teams. I solo'd my Uncommon. I play maybe 0-3 times a week, for just a few hours if I can manage it. I'm rarely on when the rest of my SG is on (and there's like 3 of us left, so it barely counts). I hate trying to make new friends, and most of all, I hate talking to people. Ugh, I hate talking to people.

With all that being said, when I actually tried it out, I realized joining a TF once a week for Notices is utterly painless. Join a Global on your server that's known for getting TFs together, ask a forming team to let you in, and if they're worth your time, you'll get an invite and probably a successful TF. I got my notice and enough shards to convert stuff for my rare all in that first TF. The experience has actually made me want to team more, and the more I do it, the easier it gets. If you get the chance, I think you should at least give it a try. People aren't as scary as it seems before you let them in a little.

Sure, I understand that with the rewards system built the way it is, you can't solo EVERYTHING this game has to offer, but the rewards from teaming are so easy to target that you don't even have to do much teaming at all to get what you want. You can team once a week to get the hard components, but still solo the easy components. Don't look at it from a one-or-the-other perspective, because it's not that way at all. CoH is still so much better than any other MMORPG in that regard, because in most of those games, there is no easy stuff, just several tiers of hard stuff, where you can't solo anything of value. That's why, even though endgame will require teaming, CoH's endgame is the only one I like. There are no strict schedules to follow, no cliquish guilds to apply for, and best of all, you can work towards your goal little by little even when you're not on a team. It may not go far enough for some, but it certainly goes farther than any other.

So you're basically saying that the Devs must ensure team players have preferential treatment, or they'll all rage quit if they see solo players getting comparable Incarnate drops through additional solo-friendly incarnate arcs. That the knowledge of solo players adavancing at the same rate will drive away everyone who likes to team. (Even though most players will actually bounce back and forth between the two depending on their mood or how much time they have that particular day.)

"What? They made a story arc that someone can solo and get Incarnate salvage? I... I can't.... I have to cancel now! NOAAAAW! I can't play this game if they can just play different content geared towards they're play style! This Slot is dead to me if a solo player can get it a week like me, instead of a month! I'm going to go play Farmville, where the developers undertand that social interactions are what MMO's are for, not a customizable individual experience where people can solo or team as they wish and still progress...I feel so used and dirty...solo... got slots..."

It's odd. I though CoX and another of other gamges had been succeeding by addressing the desires of both communities, by making sure solo players had plenty to do, plenty to advance with while also seeing to it that team and raid fans had their own material to work with. I thought More Content For Every Playstyle was an idea that had been working out well, I had no idea so many team players were quitting because solo'ers were doing their own thing.

No.

But the problem is that players in general will go via the easiest/fastest method possible to get their stuff.

Why run a TF when you can spend time by yourself and possibly blitz the *arc* faster than the time it gets for players to do a non speed run of a TF...

Isnt this punishing the teamers as a result?

So the solution is to punish the people who like to play, and have been playing this game solo, for years? I'm sorry, but by reading this thread, I thought that teams had "more risk" and therefore should got "more reward" and also "faster reward" because of it. Ok...I kinda see where they are coming from, even if I don't buy it personally. But whatever.

But not for nothing..."the majority" loves to team! But now they won't team if a solo option is present? Oh wait, I get it, they only like to team because they get (incarnate) stuff faster because the risk is greater? So if they made solo friendly incarnate arcs, no one would ever do TFs for similar rewards? So apparently the team/solo debate is moot. It's all about "getting stuff the fastest"?

I think it's all ridiculous. People who like to team will still team for the incarnate stuff, and people who like to solo will still solo for theirs. You might have a small proportion of min/maxer type team lovers who might go against their grain and solo content just for so called "faster reward" but I don't think it's a game breaker honestly for most people. And typically, the people who are min/maxers and do want and indeed get everything the fastest already have the characters and the influence to do it anyways. You don't develop that type of mentality in the game by having mediocre toons. But the point of the GAME is to have fun, and if they had WTFs and also soloable arcs available, it's basically win-win in my books.

I'm actually in the what I consider, small proportion group I mentioned above, but on the other side. I hate teaming, but I did go against my grain this week, and did two Khan TFs solely for the Notice of the Well. But now that I've got my level shift, I'm back to ignoring everyone else in the game basically again! That's how I like it. I do my thing, everyone else does theirs. The world makes sense for me again!

Then are you saying that the TF content just isn't good enough to draw teamers? That team play missions just aren't able to compete with solo'ers? They've made solo-friendly adjustments on a number of occassions, and people said it would kill the game because nobody would team any more. The defender solo bonus, difficulty slider, and ability to drop missions all come to mind. Mission Architect was denounced as a Team Killer too, because people could design and play solo oriented missions.

"We just can't get enough people to team and do a TF if we allow solo'ers their route."


I was under the impression most people liked teaming to some extent or other, and weren't so wrapped up in charging the level cap as quickly as possible. If that's the only reason people are teaming, then the problem is the quality of the team content. Of course, from a dev standpoint it is easier to throw extra rewards at teamers, and penalties at soloers, than it is to really hammer out more good content for both.

Hmm. I'd swear I'd posted suggestions here to add a L45-50 Ouroboros story arc weekly as a Strike Target (have both it and the weekly TF/SF announced by Ramiel) and have it drop a Notice as one of the end of arc rewards (which would be doubled, of course, under the same rules as the current Weekly Strike Target) if it was completed by a team of no more than 4 people.

It wouldn't be at all difficult to implement and balance, really. Those who love Task Forces would have theirs done in an hour or two, those who don't (or can't, for whatever reason) will have theirs done over the course of an evening with a small team or two (or more!) solo - at a far greater difficulty, especially given that they wouldn't be able to add people to help out once they got started!

You know what I wouldn't mind? Keep the WTF's but have a solo friendly version of them. Scale them down to 0x2 or 0x4 or something, and change all the AV's to EB's to let players have the opportunity to solo the same arcs. And as a lot of people have seen, soloing an EB is not always very easy(Trapdoor anyone?) The only other difference in the arcs between TF and solo? Instead of granting a Notice of the Well, the solo version offers something like "Glimmer of the Well" or something. These in themselves would be worth less than a Notice of the Well, but would be combineable in some multiple to form a Notice. I dunno....say 8:1 or something. Ya, an 8 man team can get a Notice of the Well in a few hours(or less if it is Khan) by teaming. But soloists can get theirs too by doing the SAME ARC, just 8 more times. This of course would require that the solo version arc be repeatable in the same week, for the same "glimmer of the well" reward. It's more of a grind for soloists, but is the same content, and everyone wins - as long as you don't mind soloing EB level content over and over again. Which could be very frustrating depending on AT and build. lol. :-s

Actually the hardest part would be balancing out the cost for time spent, effort put in, and "difficulty" of the task.

The ITF is one of the most commonly run (if not the most commonly run) TF right now, due to how fast it can be done (last run took me just over an hour and that was as a "kill most"), and that it provides fairly decent rewards for the effort (between 5 and 11 shards per run, merits/choice of incarnate salvage)

Of course, if you make it (as a solo player) possible to achieve the same aim as a someone who runs TF's.

One *distinct* advantage that the "soloers" have is that they can call in for extra help when the going gets tough, whilst on a TF you dont have that option to call up/replace people at a moments notice without starting again from scratch.

I am *not* against solo options, what I AM against though is solo play being the easier route to *exactly* the same rewards that team players get.

Note: I do find the initial costs being a bit high (especially considering that to craft a NOTW you need incarnate components as well as 40 shards). I *personally* would have gone for 40 shards total + "some random inf cost".

It also should be noted that it's easier, from a PR standpoint, to set the bar initially far apart and approach the sweet spot from the direction of slower "leveling" speed, than faster, for the simple reason that if the developers at any point in the open beta process, make the speed slower a portion of the player base is going to talk about a nerf to the system. If they make it faster it's an easier sell to the playerbase and they get good PR out of it. With all that being said, I still feel like the bar is set strangely far apart here.

See, this I can live with. Advancement being comparable to the rate for teamers. Not "easier" or "faster", not "handed to me on a silver platter" as taser likes to pretend. I want the Incarnate system to be inclusive, of equal pleasure and benefit to both team players and solo players, not exclusionary favoring one over the other.

(Although in some people's minds, if a system is inclusive to other playstyles, they feel somehow they've been cheated themselves.)

Agreed on this part... overestimate instead of underestimate. Granted you might have to jump back and forth a few times (nerf/buff/nerf/buff) but if the first change is generally towards the "easier/better" side, then any further changes are generally better accepted (even if you over estimated and made it TOO easy, you can then make it harder (but not as hard as it initially was) )

Doing it the other way is tantamount to dev suicide (unless it was stupidly easy in the 1st place)

Although I didn't mention it specifically, since I was saying it was the same arc, just with a solo option, it would be under the same constraints as a normal TF. ie) you start one, you are locked into it without any changes allowed unless you quit, and restart. There would be no option for a solo player doing the same incarnate TF's, WTF's etc to call in help. Unless you count someone else emailing them awaken inspirations when they die.

When you talked to the contact, they would ask if you wanted to start a TF with a team, or by yourself. Insert dialogue here about how the team is recommended, but a solo option is present, although under the same TF constraints, and that the solo option can be very more challenging depending on your AT, etc. Blah, blah...etc.

NOT when the soloer is going through Ouroboros, as I suggest. If they need help, they'd have to start over as well.

See, this right here, is the problem. Inclusive, of equal pleasure (which I don't even know how to balance for...) does absolutely not equal "just as fast". Making a solo option slower (and the problem here is that a solo option isn't JUST a solo option, but another teamed option as well) doesn't make it exclusionary (although under certain conditions [like to be fair, the situation we have on test right now] it can).

It's almost ludicrous to hear that "casual" players (again whatever that means, but let's say for our purposes, people who do not want to engage in difficult teamed content for whatever reason) want the same rewards AS FAST as those who are engaging in content that's explicitly teamed content. The developers have decided that teamed content - specifically larger scale (teams of 8 or more (sister P will be an outlier here, but I can only infer that the WSF will not be the best way to gain the notice as it will be designed) teamed content - should be the fastest way to achieve those drops. Everything else - including that mythical solo option - is ALSO teamed content but with different initial requirements. It is patently impossible to balance a "solo" or "casual" option that is equal to the "hardcore" (whatever that means, but for this game that apparently means a TF lasting 30 minutes - 2 hours) because the initial conditions are not equal. And they're not because the "hardcore" players are also doing "casual" content. Create a "solo" option that is "casual-friendly" but also difficult, and people will still complain. See Trapdoor. See Protean. Both of which can be solo, and possibly casual friendly (unless you're an MM for Protean), but people still complain that they're incredibly difficult.

Which, to my mind least, the devs cannot think to create content that is "casual friendly" that is equal in any way to "difficult teamed content" (which, by the way, is not necessarily more difficult in terms of game difficulty, but certainly less forgiving of failure, which puts a whole new thing into the argument but whatever). The only way to truly balance the different content is to specifically make the one that is less forgiving drop rewards the push progression more quickly for those who engage with it.

Whether the "solo" or "casual" option is, right now, the proper distance apart is something else. As I said, right now I don't think it is, but it's still fairly early in the process. And even if it goes live the way it is, I can imagine many situations that the devs would change it according to where they want that sweet spot to eventually end up.

Everything I've said about what I like and don't like comes from experience, not extrapolation. I have tried PuGs, I have tried raids, I have tried all these things. If more people were willing to run the team with just 4 people, or if the relevant Strike Forces could be run with that many, things might be a little different, but the magic number of 8 is just a bit too focused upon for my tastes.

I differentiate between "rewards" and "ability to advance."

When the reward is prestige uber prplz leet gear or heaps of money, I expect there to be a disparity between casual and hardcore. I don't expect to play for 20 minutes and have a Goblin Fart Slave to drop the Glorious Death Hammer of I Win and 3 Helmet's Of Lazer Eye Deathbeams. But I'm not interested in having to play 40 hours to advance my character as far as a teamed player could in 4 hours.

The Incarnate system is supposed to be new content for character advancement, what really works out to be a new, if branched, level cap. If you're a 50, there's nothing else to do but raid or TF. Incarnate could make 50's worth playing again, instead of just being a pile of More Raids and TFs For People Who Group Anyway.

If that's all you're looking for just ask people to pad for you. Most of the content, except probably the STF and possibly the LGTF, can be run with few people. Sister P can be run with 5 and that's in two weeks. I know I'd be willing to try running something like the ITF with a team of 4 just to see if it can be done. I would suggest asking people on your server's global channel to see if people would be willing to try...I'd be surprised if you couldn't find three more who wouldn't be interested to make the attempt for the challenge if nothing else. Finding people to pad for you shouldn't even be that hard.

No, I'm saying very specifically, in answer to your specific question, that in any game that answers the normally rhetorical question "why should anyone else care what someone else gets, so why can't everyone get whatever rewards they want" with a "why not" everyone will eventually quit. The thing about inequity aversion is that even when people explicitly state they don't care, and even when the inequity breaks in their favor most people know something is intuitively wrong.

Why then doesn't the entire world of MMO players reject the notion that teams typically earn rewards faster, on an normalized adjusted basis, than players working solo? Its because the vast majority of players don't see that as an inequity, even those that prefer to solo. Intuitively, they know that regardless of their preferences, teaming is a separate activity that can be rewarded, provided the reward isn't too extremely high.

When we talk about playstyles soloing and teaming can be seen as two distinct and equal subclasses of playstyle (albeit "teaming" is a far more broad term than soloing). However, when we are talking about activity teaming is not just the lack of soloing and vice versa. Teaming is a separate, distinct activity over and above soloing. Combat is an activity. Not fighting is not an activity: its a choice. But its not the act of not fighting that has the same right to rewards. If it is rewarded, it will be by special case only. In the same way, teaming is an action: it can be rewarded in an MMO. Not teaming is a choice, but its not a rewardable action. The devs of many MMOs honor the choice to choose to team, or choose not to team, in the design of content. However, all to my knowledge decide that participation on a team is an action, while avoiding teams is not for the purposes of deciding which actions to reward. The perspective that the lack of an action is itself an action is frankly ludicrous: it begs the question why reward defeating things more than not defeating things.

And if you're going to keep presenting strawmen, I'm going to start attacking the construction of the strawmen directly. And I'm going to pre-empt one starting now. This covers the general topic of soloing as it pertains to the reward system, but it is addressing the meta-topic of whether what I was saying in the first place is relevant, and not reducible to trivial sound bites. Its a justification for why any differences in reward rates exist at all. If you're going to segue into railing on me for being prejudiced against soloers or arguing against the existence of solo options for the end game, I would suggest you go look up my stated opinions on both first. I will not look kindly on ignorant assumptions about either.

The shard cost is minimal as you play you will get them. 400 million to craft it, is going to be painful for many players. I think you are missing the fact that there are players out there that don't have 100 million to their name let alone 400, and the bulk of builds out there aren't high powered.

First off, On a personal note, I'd like to apologize for the tone I took with you earlier. I honestly did have the impression you were just trying to blow smoke over what I view as a Dev decision to choke solo players into submission. I quite frankly irritated at the "Solo players is crybabies who want everything for free mentality some here display", and I was reading your posts as simply a more eloquent version of "LRN 2TEEM OR U SUX GO AWAY." That was unfair of me, and I apologize.

Back to the argueing.

Inequity Aversion works both ways. How do you expect someone who mainly solos to look at Extra More Bigger Super Bonus Reward Just For Being A Joiner?

The solo player sees that the simple act joining a team is now what devs are seeking to reward, that Joining is now the primary focus of content design. Team members earn extra awards in the form of increased drop rates, lucrative content accessible only through joining a team, on top of that extra, more favorable team bonuses to experience and loot. Preferential rewards that go above and beyond the increased synergy found when teaming, the increased efficiency that cooperation naturally brings. At this point, the game is no longer about fighting this or that, completing stories and missions, it's about Joining.

Missions, stories, fights, all become little more than means of facilitating the preferred, encouraged action of Joining a team. Not "Let's make a game for people to fight monsters and experience these stories" but "Let's make a game where people Join!"

Farmville with better graphics.

I dispute the claim that there is some inherent "inequity" in a solo player getting slot XYZ after playing a similar number of hours that a team player does, outside the general increase in efficiency team players create for themselves. He didn't diminish the fun they have teaming, he didn't make their team less efficient. He didn't gobble up drops that they would have gotten instead or otherwise use resources they needed. The player who looks over and realizes someone else played all weekend solo and made similar progress but is upset by that is really just going Dog In Manger. I would say the same of a soloer who is upset that teams are by their very nature more efficient, or when it comes to things like Raid Loot in the form of gear, rather than Advancement capability as it is in the Incarnate system.

When the discrepency is great as it is in the Incarnate system, why should solo players stick around once they're bored with alts? "Ah, another one at 50. Yay. None of my friends are going to be on this weekend, so I can grind all day or roll another alt. I wonder if anybody else has a new game out..." Personally, I've got enough alts that I'll have plenty to do until my friends are on and I feel like teaming... but I really, really dislike knowing that I can't make any meaningful progress on my 50 outside Joining or doing a tardhaus grind. It's meet the New Content, Same As The Old Content as far as soloability goes, just with some new stickers on the box.

There is an inherent "Inequity" because the game is now simply about Joining rather than playing. I'm happy to allow for the fact that groups kill things faster, except when the cost of advancing is artificially increased for the sole purpose of making grouping the only efficient way to do it. When I join a team, it's because I know and like those particular people, not because the Devs want me to team or feel that the simple act of Joining should get extra reward.