Soloability and End Game

So fight for your desires. But don't expect me to lay down and accept them when they are contrary to mine.

I would go so far as to say "suck it up and deal with it." The game doesn't "belong" to you alone, or the supposed "casuals" you're championing for, it's mine, and everyone else's who pays $15 a month (or whatever plan they're on) just as much as it is anyone else's (even DumpleBerry's). You don't really have the right to tell any group to "leave your game alone". I started this game 66+ months ago as a casual player myself and enjoyed the casual nature of the game. As time has gone on, and I've gotten better and better, and played with groups of people who are better and better players, I've wanted more challenge than the base game can provide me. The Incarnate opening stuff is a good first try at that, and I applaud the devs for making it. In no way shape or form am I suggesting there not be anymore casual content anymore (as I like to play that just as much as anyone else does) but by the same token, I want more challenging things to do. I don't care how "outraged" you are that someone else you don't like is "playing you beloved game" and you want them to "go somewhere else and play something else" that shows a highly childish and undeveloped since of one's place in the world, and a lack of understanding that can only come from an introvert who hasn't yet learned to really interact properly with the rest of the world.

I may not like the self-espoused "PvP Community" in CoH either, but I generally don't try to insinuate they don't have the right to play the game; the devs generally tend to make sure they do that on their own :P

TL;DR version; Please. Your hystronics aren't going to get you anywhere, and the attention-grabbing isn't going to work on most. Past this one post on the issue, it's not working on *me* either.

The problem with using your own special definitions of words is that it makes it hard to communicate with other people. For most people who play this game, solo and casual mean different things. If you conflate them into one, then people will misunderstand you, like I did. What's wrong with just saying 'solo'?

I agree that, for strongly committed solo players, the Incarnate system as it stands is weighed in favour of TFs -- one arc v. two TFs -- and seems like to continue with a TF/Trial bias. However, it's also early days.

Ahh, but the Devs seem to be doing stuff I'm happy with. See, I'm a casual gamer. I take a casual attitude to this all.

I'm not sure why I would worry about the Incarnate stuff becoming team only. Is there some reason I should believe that having established Incarnate content as not requiring a team they are all of a sudden going to turn around and make it team only? I've got plenty of more important stuff going on in my life, I don't need to worry about things that MIGHT happen in the online game that I like.

I'm a casual player. It's just a game. If I were going to get all hopped up about it then I'm not sure I would be a casual player.

I've been "sucking it up and dealing with it" for twenty years (as a gamer) or forty years (personally), whichever way you meant this. I "suck it up and deal with" living in an extroverted world every single day. I've "sucked it up and dealt" with games becoming more and more focused on "challenge" (as well as "realism" and "shooting") for the past twenty years.

And frankly, I'm sick of having to bow to extroverts and challenge seekers. There's worlds and worlds of things out there for extroverts and challenge seekers already. One of the main points (not the main point, not the only main point, but one of a handful) that draws me to this game and keeps me with this game is the fact that it was unlike the rest, that it actually catered to ease and solo-play (solo play doesn't have to be easy, and easy doesn't have to be solo; these are separate things). I've seen franchises, companies, and genres I love morph, "evolve", and die many, many times, and of late the trend in the video game world has been towards conformity, towards making everything the same.

City of isn't there yet, but the steps they've taken in development of the Incarnate system have, thus far, seemed quite clearly to be steps towards that. I'm open to being pleasantly surprised by i20 content, and I'll be the first to praise Paragon if I'm wrong about it, but what I've heard and seen so far has not given me cause for hope.

I do not want to see this game's end-game be like every other game's end-game, where the idea is "tactics", "challenge", and "teams/raids". City of has, thus far, avoided that path, and I will not "suck it up and deal with" yet another game I love going down that same old path everyone else has trod before.

I've had quite enough of having to "suck it up and deal with it", thank you.

In seriousness, why not try something like Ultima Offline? That would allow for an MMO feel but with only you on the server, plus you could customize gameplay pretty much the way you'd like. Seems like for an introvert something like that would be the best solution.

I disagree about the Incarnate system. I don't know how they could have made it much more solo friendly without simply handing out shards. Perhaps the shards could drop more often when solo, but I don't think the rate is bad now. I have an uncommon on one character and a common on another, that's it, and that's been fine for me. I can run tip missions to get hero points to make my characters much stronger with IO's I couldn't get before (what a crazy great boon for solo characters, or at least mine, that has been) and while I'm running tips I get shards. No biggie.

The way the system advances (at least if it continues the current trend throughout) is fine. That all content designed to be tackled by Incarnates seems to be team- (and challenge-, and "tactic"-) gated is not. I'd like to see Incarnate story arcs, not just Task Forces. Something for our Incarnates to tackle by themselves, some threat that would have outclassed regular heroes (but without the cheap mechanic designed to create this in Apex and Tin Mage) but that is right up the alley of Incarnate characters.

Victor Ross's story arc is actually a really good example of something that should have been an Incarnate arc (balanced, ideally, so that the final showdown mission doesn't require a "cheat" power to work). A new Incarnate contact, one who does not require a Task Force, would be the ideal.

Hints that such is coming, however, have thus far been non-existent. The hints we've been given for forthcoming Incarnate content has been "Trials", which by precedent in the game is teamed content. I see no reason to believe that they are planning on adding anything else (the "Incarnate Trials" have been the central hype in every communique,) and shall not act on an assumption that they are without evidence.

CoX has actually *not* avoided that path at any time in its history. That it has seemed like it has to you is a coincidence. The game from its inception has always defined its gameplay as having a core "standard game" which has what I call the standard model of difficulty. That standard itself has evolved over time in terms of being refined, but its basic boundaries are essentially that to qualify as core standard content the content must be soloable by any archetype that is reasonably built to solo within a reasonable amount of time or attempts, using a reasonable amount of inspirations over the course of the content.

However, the game has always had content that was intended to be designed beyond that level of difficulty, either to target players wanting higher difficulty or to gate certain rewards, or both. Task forces are one such type of content. Respec trial is another, as is all the trials. The Praetorian arc (Maria) is another. Just stepping into a hazard zone is yet another.

The "standard" end game is already established. Its either to roll an alt, or to play the standard content that exists at level 50. That is the end game for people who want to remain within the standard content boundaries. That has always been a part of the game design as well. So for people who want an end game but do not want to leave the standard difficultly model, you've had your end game since Issue 1.

"The" end game is actually the alternate end game: the end game for people who want to leave the standard difficulty model. This is the progressional end game that ratchets both player power and player difficulty. Those two have to go hand in hand: you're not going to get a standard difficulty end game where you get to be more powerful and the critters stay the same or only scale with you. Besides the point that that would be extremely difficult to do with something like the Incarnate system (its already difficult to do with the invention system, and even just with scaling to level 50) it would be a lot of development effort to put players right back at the same place, which is simply not worth it. We already have a standard model level 50, the devs are not going to make another one.

Eventually much of the technology developed for the end game will be backported to the standard game, maintaining more or less the standard model of difficulty. The standard model missions will get more interesting, without getting materially more difficult. And the devs are not going to stop making standard content: most of the content in Issue 19 is standard content, skewed counting notwithstanding. So the standard model end game will continue to grow and evolve. But the simple fact is, if you want a standard model end game, you've had one for eighteen issues. Level 50 content *is* the standard model end game, and its not going anywhere. Honestly, given that the standard model end game has had an eighteen issue head start over the advanced one, I don't see the justification for a complaint.

To the extent that there's been a trend its a trend that was started at launch. It was evident in the design of Peregrine Island and its snipers and quad boss spawns. It was evident in Maria's arc full of archvillains. It was evident in the respec trial that most players failed the first time or two. It was evident in the design of the Rularuu, and the Vanguard, and the Cimerorans. The fact that you've been able to, I assume, dodge all these things is a lucky happenstance, it is not a reflection of the devs going out of their way to make non-standard content invisible. Optional to an extent, but not invisible. Just as the Incarnate system and the end game content is similarly optional, but not invisible.

One last thing: I don't think the Incarnate system and the end game content represents CoX just rehashing other games. The Incarnate system has the potential to be something genuinely new: a transitional end game progression system that uses essentially a modified skills tree in an essentially level-less or near level-less end game. The end game task forces and content is I suppose more likely to look like what other games have done, simply because there are more limits to what a game designer can do in that setting. But you could say the same thing about the standard content as well. The real question is how the devs ease the majority of players into the new difficulty paths.

Difficulty is relative. The ITF was considered a difficult task force when it debued. Its now considered an ATM. The LRSF and STF were considered extremely difficult when they debued. Now they are considered just above average in difficulty. And even the normal task forces were considered difficult in the beginning, but now they are not considered all that difficult even by average players with average builds.

This game targets the average player. Not you or I, but its average subscriber. The average player has gotten better over time. Not massively so, but noticably so. The game's center of mass is going to shift as a result.

It's not yours - it belongs to everyone who plays it

And NCSoft, of course

[/quote]I could use the words that truly describe my feelings about this. It's hard to express such outrage I feel with polite and politic words.[/QUOTE]

Outrage? About a supeerhero video game adding some stuff that you need to team up for? How do you react to genuine outrages in RL?

Single player Incarnate content is probably going to come along eventually, but the teamed content is likely to be the priority for the near future. Part of the reason is due to the need to get a handle on creating the mission mechanics and balancing the difficulty for Incarnate-loaded teams. That requires extensive testing.

I play villains. We don't get access to anything Rularuu-related (well, a few tips; haven't had any real trouble with them that I don't have with other groups, such as Longbow and PPD).

I'm not really sure how much Vanguard and Cimerorans exist beyond standard difficulty, except inasmuch as Vanguard Wizards and their cheat power. I suppose Cimerorans might to the extent that not many other groups have as many debuffs as they do.

Again, I'm afraid I have to <shrug>. I haven't run Victor Ross, maybe I'll look it up and see what it is.

As mentioned above I've had a great time running tip missions, which is new content. I still like running radio missions. Pretty much as long as I can log in and beat the stuffing out of a small horde of bad guys I don't care how repetitive the tileset or mission plot is. I'm simple (and casual) that way. If my Incarnate slot allows me to go into that Council radio mission and slap around a higher number of bad guys quicker then it's doing it's job as far as I'm concerned.

It'd be cool if there was an Incarnate contact/arc. I would think there probably will be at some point, but even if there isn't I don't think I'd miss it much. If I really wanted to progress my character's story in that way that badly I'd probably just look at doing it in AE so that I happens when and how I want it to.

When i see this, my first thought is to call shenanigans but it might just be towards the RNG. I have similar play sessions you have described yet i only have 3 shards dropped for me since i19's launch.

If the predominant content in the next 2 issues needs that alpha slotted, then looks like i would be missing out for the next half a year maybe?

Not an amusing thought for me at all.

I usually don't even get 2 hours. Maybe enough for a couple tip missions, or more if I speed through them. But I've got an uncommon and a common. The RNG can be wacky for sure (it's random!), I've had spots where I got two shards in two foes and then it'll be two sessions or more before I see another one.

It does have to do with the number of foes you're fighting though. When I run my Tanker at +0/x8 I have a much better chance of getting shards than when I run my Dominator at +2/x2. I think quantity helps, not quality. But I like quantity better anyway.



Maybe that's something you could adjust? Just trying to help.

The game is not about what Eiko_chan wants it to be.

It's not about what Grouchybeast, Golden Girl, Arcanaville, Bill Z Bubba, Werner, or ClawsandEffect want it to be either.

It is about appealing to the largest amount of people possible. There are things that will thrill some players that others will despise. There are things that will increase difficulty, just as there are things that will decrease it (if getting Stamina at level 2 isn't a difficulty decrease, I don't know what is).

You do not have sole possession of the game, and neither does anyone else. If you don't like part of the game, you have the option of ignoring it and doing the stuff you do like.

They will continue to release soloable content, because the devs are well aware that there is a significant number of players who enjoy soloing. In fact, I will be very surprised if there isn't some kind of normal mission content taking place in Praetoria for Primal Earth characters to do, probably in the 30-40 and 40-50 range. Releasing it with i20 would make sense. They very seldom release details about new mission arcs months in advance, so it doesn't surprise me that we haven't heard anything about any yet.

Saying that the game should remain casual, and not cater to people who want a challenge AT ALL is just plain ridiculous. There have been 18 issues of "casual", and now there is content that is more challenging, and is also completely optional.

Since I started playing this game over 5 years ago, I have NEVER seen anything in it that was absolutely required in order to advance. Everything in the game, from badges and task forces to IOs, PvP, and marketeering is optional.

Name ONE thing that you absolutely MUST do to advance in the game, that you absolutely can't do by yourself. I can't think of anything at all that fits that criteria, can you?

You're outraged that they are changing YOUR game into something you don't like. Since when are we playing City of Eiko_chan? Yeah, I just looked at the header at the top of my forums, it still says "City of Heroes". It's not YOUR game, it is the game of anyone who chooses to play it, and you do NOT get to dictate that "this is a casual game, go take you challenge seeking and play something else"

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

Oh, I don't know, sometimes I suspect it is at least a little bit about what Arcanaville wants it to be.

You know, you're absolutely right. It's TOTALLY Arcana's fault that Martial Arts is less useless than it was before.

How DARE she?

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.

I didn't pass a value judgement on whether what Arcana wanted was good or bad, you know.

Okay, good. Keep that habit up. It'll be better for everyone.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.

And you utterly missed my point when I preceded my comment about IF there were nothing more but 'high end raiding' with the point that that would never happen.

But, I hope you enjoyed beating the stuffing out of that straw man.



You know, I'm basically introverted, too. About 97% of my play time is solo. But I've found that if I'm able to get into Internet arguments in a forum, I have the capability to occasionally stand to deal with people in PuGs. Maybe you can find that same resource within yourself since your Introversion is not apparent in the forums.

In Beta, Shard drop rate was rather significantly increased at players' request.

At this point, only datamining showing an actual and significant horrific drop rate for soloers will change the rate. I doubt that's the case. But, unless one has access to the data, it's very much subject to subjective perception.

And unless one uses HeroStats to actual document playing X hours solo at level 50 and only getting a paltry few shards will the Devs probably be willing to check that data. But I do know this: If someone actually does present that data, they will indeed datamine to verify and adjust accordingly.

Introversion doesn't really mean "hates dealing with other people" anyway; that's just anti-social. Introverted means you're more relaxed and comfortable when you're alone; that's how you recharge your batteries after stress. Extroverted people relieve stress by socializing. That doesn't mean introverted people don't like socializing, that just means it takes effort for them.