City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

Soloability and End Game

Adeon Hawkwood

By Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-01-10 11:44 in Developers' Corner

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorgar View Post
It seems early to get really worried that the rest of the incarnate content will all be team-oriented just because the first piece has TFs.
It's not because the first part has TFs. It's because the only thing they'll talk about coming up are "Trials", which, by game parlance, are just different TFs.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
I don't want to beat the introvert types with it

They just need to realize that in an MMO, there will be some team-only stuff that is very, very awesome.
There is one small problem with your theory there, dear heart: the existence of this thread. Obviously the Devs are concerned with how we perceive the soloability of the end game content they are creating or they wouldn't have given us a place to discuss it.

 

Posted

Anyway, I like to see more solo friendly content for several reasons.

There's times when I'm up late and nobody else is on, there's times when my schedule gets hectic and I have to play in short bursts, There's times when the day was long and I just want to be left alone.

I like the intro to the incarnate missions, it is suggested teaming, but not impossible to solo.

I look forward to seeing more of that.

Also, I hope that when My lovely incarnate brute gets to be powerful enough I can actually setup and run a solo an ITF without having to bother people to get it started.

Ignoring anyone is a mistake. You might miss something viral to your cause.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
That's the way it is with tiny minorities
Golden Girl...what is with you today?

Tiny minorities????

Actually , I think you are afraid that the soloing subscribers of this game just might be the silent majority, and are thus actively trying to keep us silent in this thread.

I have been tickled pink so far with discovering the joys to be had with the newly buffed Ma scrappers...and the Hero Merits and the Villain Merits...just wow!!!! I can now make me a super duper scrapper like all the cool kids on the forums have

Seriously, what we have is two sides who are vocal about what part of COH makes them happy. The teamers want teaming content, and the soloers, yay team solo, want stuff they can do solo.

And both sides are afraid the Devs will listen to the other side.

The Devs cannot please everyone, and I applaud and am very grateful for being able to solo as much of it as I can.

I solo because I am a clutz, bang into walls, get lost in the twisted office building hallways, sometimes I can't target the bad guy I want most to hit....oh meee the stories I could tell.

So, I am all for new solo content, but that is me. My better half teams, and teams, and teams, so I am happy that there will be new things for him to do.

So, Devs, I beg of you, when designing the exciting new issues, do keep us soloers in mind, and throw us a piece of pie

There, I chimed in with my two cents.. now, on to the game with me

So don't wait for heroes, do it yourself
You've got the power
winners are losers
who got up and gave it just one more try

***Dennis DeYoung

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steel_Shaman View Post
There is one small problem with your theory there, dear heart: the existence of this thread. Obviously the Devs are concerned with how we perceive the soloability of the end game content they are creating or they wouldn't have given us a place to discuss it.
They also had PvP feedback threads before I13 went live

I also choose to spend about half my play time solo, so I'm not anti-soloing

@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
They also had PvP feedback threads before I13 went live
Do you honestly believe the devs desire a repeat of what happened to the playerbase after i13?

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan View Post
Do you honestly believe the devs desire a repeat of what happened to the playerbase after i13?
You mean the reduced stress load on the profanity filter?

@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by McCharraigin View Post
Golden Girl...what is with you today?
It's the same as yesterday, and probably the same tomorrow too

Quote:
Tiny minorities????
If they weren't, there'd be more of them here

Quote:
Actually, I think you are afraid that the soloing subscribers of this game just might be the silent majority, and are thus actively trying to keep us silent in this thread.
First, if they're silent then there's no need to keep them silent
And second, how do you keep someone silent on a thread when the entire way a thread works is for people to give their opinions?

@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

Now I know why Ocho and Castle found better jobs.

Ignoring anyone is a mistake. You might miss something viral to your cause.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
If they weren't, there'd be more of them here
Nope, there aren't many prudes around... why, I can hardly see any here on the nudist beach!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bronze Knight View Post
I'm not asking you to "unlearn" anything. I'm asking you to learn.

Learn as in acquire new skills or compensations for situations. Something every one is capable of. You as an introvert may have difficulty with that, but you can do it. Continually placing yourself in situations were you need those skills was simply the fastest way I could think of for you to acquire them.
So, you're asking her to learn to play the game in a way that is both uncomfortable and draining for her? Let me tell you something. An introvert can "learn" as you claim. What they cannot ever "learn" is how to be comfortable in those situations. I'm both shy and an introvert, and at work I'm the boss. I've "learned" how to overcome both to do my job, however, it is still stressful and draining. Years of doing it does not change that fact.

Now, I don't agree with Eiko's view on the incarnate content and what she perceives as the direction of the game, although I do think there needs to be soloable incarnate content. However, she is spot on about how introverts in general are in this kind of environment. We're all here to have fun and relax, and teaming is OFTEN, not relaxing for us.

To respond to another poster earlier in the thread who said "If you don't want to deal with other people play a single player game" or something to that effect... well, it's hard not to make the kind of comment that actually deserves since the answer is so patently obvious. How many single player games evolve over time? Does CoH play the same way today it did 7 years ago? No. An MMO evolves, is added to, gains new content, and so on. A solo-friendly MMO is far more fun than a single-player game even if you play the MMO mostly solo.

@Doctor Gemini

Arc #271637 - Welcome to M.A.G.I. - An alternative first story arc for magic origin heroes. At Hero Registration you heard the jokes about Azuria always losing things. When she loses the entire M.A.G.I. vault, you are chosen to find it.

 

Posted

Ah, I do love armchair psychologists. What's all this talk about people who want to solo being introverts? Let me tell you a little about myself:

I am one of the most outgoing people you will ever meet. I strike up conversations with complete strangers while standing in line at the grocery store just because I'm bored and because I find people entertaining. I'm that annoying guy that is carrying on a conversation with the cashier and making you wait. I rarely if ever shut up. But in CoH I prefer to either solo or run on small teams. Large teams annoy me. But since I would like to see the Incarnate system have some solo content and just generally be more solo friendly I'm an introvert huh? Utter, complete rubbish.

I keep seeing people talk about how those with my opinion should adapt and change and just "go with the majority." Why are you so opposed to there being options in this game? Are you afraid that given the option, too many people will choose NOT to team with you and slow down your personal progress? That's the only logical conclusion I can come to because otherwise your argument to deny options to other players makes no sense to me at all. That fear is completely unfounded anyway. As long as teaming remains the fastest way to progress then there will be lots of people that choose that fast route. You will have your teammates to run with, so relax.

Just because an MMO has an end game doesn't mean that end game has to revolve solely around team play. Is that how other MMO's do it? Yes it is. But what's wrong with a little innovation? CoH has always been strong in that department. The Devs have used the phrase "end game for all" as their goal for the Incarnate system. I challenge them to do just that. Make the system something that everyone who plays this game can truly enjoy. Let the soloist and the team player alike evolve their max level characters into walking gods and have fun while doing so. Then we'll have something truly unique among MMO's. We'll have an end game that doesn't exclude people arbitrarily based solely on their playstyle. Excluding people is what the competition does. Let's be better than them.

 

Posted

As a raging introvert, I look forward to both solo and increasingly epic team-requiring Incarnate end-game content. I'm wacky that way.

 

Posted

The simple truth is that the Alpha is fully solo-able it'll just take longer to do solo. Just like anything else.
Though If you find your completely incapable of running a few missions with a team. I worry about you. I mean why even play a MMO.
I used to almost exclusively solo. Didn't like teaming. I got over it. I think it happened whin I got a toon to 50 in a month teaming where as my original that I worked on for several years is still st around 30.
If you have some specific resin why you don't like to solo I'd love to here it.



Quote:
Originally Posted by tanstaafl View Post
It's not a massive assumption. It's a small assumption. No existing trial in game can be started by one person.
Actually there are 3. All in ouroboros.
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Twilight%27s_Son_Task_Force
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Mender_Lazarus_Task_Force
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Mender_Silos_Task_Force

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan View Post
It's not a defect, it's not a deficiency. It's simply a difference. We are not inherently inept at dealing with people (many introverts that are are so largely due to lack of practice), we are not incapable of dealing with people (I work a help desk. I get paid to deal with people, and am surpassingly good at it, if my performance reviews of the past five years can be believed), we simply are drained by doing so.
And yet you manged to pull out 2 nice sized rants In a row. I'm proud of you.
But ya know I can go a week of non stop teaming end never wright that much. Just need to broadcast a LFT and never say another word. It's not as if we need to talk a lot of strategy. Every body pretty much knows what every ATs role going to be no mater what your team is do.

Just think of teaming as being a MM with stupider uncontrollable pets. :P

Edit: Five six posts. Wow, your the most talkative introvert I've ever heard of outside of a manga.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grouchybeast View Post
All my characters are in my personal SG, and I'm not in any coalitions, so I don't have any SG/VG channels to find teams on. Pretty much the only teaming I do is joining TFs from the server global channels, plus recently one weekly trio team.
Have you tried global channels?
Seriously I used to never hear of anyone forming a TF. It was because they all announced on the Virtue 2010 TFs channel. Once I found that I could get any TF I wanted.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hydrofoil_Zero View Post
Edit: Five six posts. Wow, your the most talkative introvert I've ever heard of outside of a manga.
That's because most Western depictions of introverts are shy, withdrawn individuals that want nothing to do with people. I actually enjoy dealing with people, but doing so isn't relaxing or refreshing; it's tiring. If I did nothing but interact with people all day, I'd collapse (mentally, which makes people grumpy and waspish, as some of my comments became further down the line).

I'm sure most people can at least conceptualise the idea of a daily workout (even if they don't do one themselves); you do it, you feel good after doing it, and you know you get something out of it, but if you did nothing but exercise all day, every day, you would be unable to function. Introverts can exercise as well as anyone else, but like everyone else, we need a rest from it. Most introverts probably save their energy for work and other real-life applications; my work has me sitting at a desk waiting for phone calls and dealing with people as they come in, and I have (sporadically allocated) free time during that time to do other things. I choose to post on forums, sort of how a marathon runner might jog in place to keep themselves loose and warmed-up for the real race.

You probably know introverts that are the same in your life - you just don't realise they're introverts (many of us have gotten very good at hiding in plain sight, because there is a stigma against introversion, as your comments so clearly show.)

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan View Post
The way the system advances (at least if it continues the current trend throughout) is fine. That all content designed to be tackled by Incarnates seems to be team- (and challenge-, and "tactic"-) gated is not. I'd like to see Incarnate story arcs, not just Task Forces. Something for our Incarnates to tackle by themselves, some threat that would have outclassed regular heroes (but without the cheap mechanic designed to create this in Apex and Tin Mage) but that is right up the alley of Incarnate characters.
Eiko, until now, I've disagreed with practically everything you've said, but here I'm going to have to add a big This. Make no mistake, I enjoy teaming. I enjoy the banter, I enjoy the (occasional) teamwork--all of it. On the other hand, I *would* like to exercise my Incarnate muskles on something that's more of a *personal* mission (the hero and villain dopplegangers and the opening incarnate arc are excellent examples of this type of arc). So yeah, I don't mind ITF,LGTF, etc. to shard hunt, but overall I like the *storied* aspect to the game, and adding to *individual* things to do is win all over.

Rich

Rich(@Naq)
--who's NO LONGER waiting for the Elec 'Troller

Bunches of good and evil scattered across all servers--

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
It's the same as yesterday, and probably the same tomorrow too



If they weren't, there'd be more of them here



First, if they're silent then there's no need to keep them silent
And second, how do you keep someone silent on a thread when the entire way a thread works is for people to give their opinions?

Lisa bounces back into this thread, and gives Golden Girl a hug.

Sorry, about yesterday, I was so shocked about your choice of words describing us soloers...and it went on and on, I had to say something.

Yes, I still think the soloing population is larger than we know.

Why are they/we quiet?

Many reasons. A lot of people choose not to participate on forums for fear of getting flamed, some, like my better half don't don't come to the forums at all, some people don't bother posting because they feel their input and opinion will not be listened to, so why bother..as I said many reasons.

However, take away their/our ability to solo, make the end game have nothing in it for them/us, make us feel like second class citizens, and I don't know for sure of course, but there is a good chance that they/we all let their wallets do the talking and leave.

Sadly, I will be among them...no dramatics or threat from this statement, just truth

But, it is all moot because I have faith that our Devs will ensure that each new issue will have something in it for both factions..the teamers and the soloers

Lisa-Optimistic and looking forward to Double XP weekend..and in a few months time, issue 20

So don't wait for heroes, do it yourself
You've got the power
winners are losers
who got up and gave it just one more try

***Dennis DeYoung

 

Posted

[QUOTE=Hydrofoil_Zero;3428245]The simple truth is that the Alpha is fully solo-able it'll just take longer to do solo. Just like anything else.
Though If you find your completely incapable of running a few missions with a team. I worry about you. I mean why even play a MMO.
I used to almost exclusively solo. Didn't like teaming. I got over it. I think it happened whin I got a toon to 50 in a month teaming where as my original that I worked on for several years is still st around 30.
If you have some specific resin why you don't like to solo I'd love to here it.




Hello Hydrofoil_Zero.

I unlocked the alpha slot on all my 50s so I know that part is indeed fully solo-able, the filling of it though is another story.
I took one of my level 50s on Tip missions this morning. I cranked up both the difficulty and number of villains

When I finished, I had lots of recipes, SOs, large inspirations, and made a fair amount of influence....what was missing was shards.

I got not one.

And I have not received shards on any of my unlocked 50s that I have played...so I am not truly convinced about it being possible to fill one solo.

Completely not capable of teaming? Reason for not teaming?

I am capable, just not coordinated. Solo, I do well, but when teamed my deficiencies are obvious to me... crashing into walls which results in my losing the team, sometimes not being able to lock on to my target, I am a slow typist which got me accused of being stuck up.

Oh, I forgot one of your questions...I play this game because my better half dragged me kicking and screaming into it. When when I settled down to a mild wimper I found that beating up bad guys is serious stress therapy, and this game is something He and I can do together...didn't work out that way, we are often on different servers, but we have lively discussions

Lisa.

So don't wait for heroes, do it yourself
You've got the power
winners are losers
who got up and gave it just one more try

***Dennis DeYoung

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by McCharraigin View Post
I took one of my level 50s on Tip missions this morning. I cranked up both the difficulty and number of villains

When I finished, I had lots of recipes, SOs, large inspirations, and made a fair amount of influence....what was missing was shards.

I got not one.

And I have not received shards on any of my unlocked 50s that I have played...so I am not truly convinced about it being possible to fill one solo.
That's the biggest problem i'm having with the incarnate system. I understand "slower" acquisition of shards. But there's "slow" and then there's "so slow it makes a snail's pace seem like lightspeed" kind of slow. The latter only serves to discourage from further participating in incarnates which i'm at now since i'm contemplating starting another praetorian instead of working on my incarnate.

I'm sure that's just the RNG, but when people are reporting getting like 10 shards or so in a single tf that's maybe averaging 1 hour of play...then there's me with 3 shard drops after a month and a half, then that is an issue that needs to be addressed.

 

Posted

Ok so longtime member, who's been on various vacations, but I'm back due to end game possibilities. Soloing is pretty much what I'm interested in this game. Nothing wrong with teaming but for my playtime its random and not on a schedule. I despise the fact that we still have to get a group of 4 or more for TF's. COME ON devs! I've done TF's with teams and have formed teams to solo TF's. But come on, give us solo folks the option of doing a TF solo. I don't care if I won't get a purple at the end of it, but haven't the ablitity to say "I have time today to do a TF" without the frustration of organizing a team and waiting on everyone else to show is worth the investment I put into the game.

Sure I can spend less on the solo games out there that will deliver just the same amount of entertainment but I "choose" COH instead. And with just a little nudge from your part, it will be worth that much more!

Solo end game would be nice but I haven't even touched end game yet and can't comment.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by McCharraigin View Post
Golden Girl...what is with you today?
It's the same as yesterday, and probably the same tomorrow too
Boy, is it ever...

Quote:
Quote:
Tiny minorities????
If they weren't, there'd be more of them here
Quote:
Actually, I think you are afraid that the soloing subscribers of this game just might be the silent majority, and are thus actively trying to keep us silent in this thread.
First, if they're silent then there's no need to keep them silent
And second, how do you keep someone silent on a thread when the entire way a thread works is for people to give their opinions?
We are the introverts.
We are silent,
and we are LEGION.



Truth be told; As Eiko said, the point of introversion is not that you're anti-social, but instead is that you don't find socialising to be restful.

The amount of social contact an introvert feels "comfortable" with will vary from person to person, and their willingness to participate in any social activity which they find "draining" will usually depend greatly on how rested they happen to feel at the time. An Introvert might enjoy social contact, but eventually they will feel drained and yearn to go off on their own to 'recharge their batteries'.

It's the same idea as an extrovert being required to spend prolonged periods of time on their own, cut off from all social contact. Such an extrovert might enjoy being on their own (for reading, walks, etc) but eventually they will feel drained and yearn to get back to chatting or socialising so that they can recharge their batteries.

--------------------

Notice there is a big difference between not ENJOYING socialising, and not finding it restful.

Personally, I find I can withstand prolonged contact in RL with about 3-4 people for days at a time without it noticeably draining my batteries, particularly if they're good friends. I enjoy socialising, and I'll happilly organise a few events and suchlike for people that I know well. However large crowds of people, or hanging around strangers can drain me very quickly. I can't go to two parties in a row in the evenings (weddings/birthdays/gigs/whatever) without needing a day or two of "downtime" to recover.

When online, I find that soloing Ouroboros Arcs or TFs is a great way for me to recharge and teamed gameplay (even in larger 8-man groups) hardly drains me at all, but I very, very rarely lead a PUG team because of the greater level of chattiness required. Not because I lack the ability or the experience to lead a team, but because I find the organisation aspect of building a team full of mostly-strangers draining and not as much fun as just periodically chipping in with random banter or situational advice in team chat.

Introverts at parties tend to be quite easy to spot. They're not just the ones on their own leaning against the wall - they're also the ones who "clique" into groups of about 2-5 people and don't mingle. That way they cut down the amount of people they have to interact with. For many, this behaviour is not even a concious thing, they're just more comfortable with one or two "mates" than with being the centre of attention.

--------------------------

GG, I'm honestly not surprised that you haven't "grokked" this, since you would appear to be a classic extrovert. Your "calling card" tends to be to make a lot of short, disconnected posts to as many people as possible, in as many threads as possible. The aim of this would seem to be to provoke responses from as many people as possible - which is stereotypical extroverted, attention-seeking behaviour.

Don't get me wrong, it certainly isn't against forum rules to be "chatty", and I'm sure some of what you post is helpful/humourous... but the pure scope of how regularly you make all these seemingly disconnected and random posts likely annoys a great many more-introverted people on principle.

Now I'm (reasonably) sure that you don't intend to be seen as a poster of random babble permeated only with winkies, and instead just want to be communicated with a lot because that's how you get your "feel good" and recharge... but please try to understand that everybody else does not recharge in the same manner.

I can appreciate that grasping what Introversion is might be very difficult for you - because it's such an alien concept to your way of thinking, or at least compared to your displayed behaviour on these boards. But Introverts are people too... k?

 

Posted

[

Just because an MMO has an end game doesn't mean that end game has to revolve solely around team play. Is that how other MMO's do it? Yes it is. But what's wrong with a little innovation? CoH has always been strong in that department. The Devs have used the phrase "end game for all" as their goal for the Incarnate system. I challenge them to do just that. Make the system something that everyone who plays this game can truly enjoy. Let the soloist and the team player alike evolve their max level characters into walking gods and have fun while doing so. Then we'll have something truly unique among MMO's. We'll have an end game that doesn't exclude people arbitrarily based solely on their playstyle. Excluding people is what the competition does. Let's be better than them.[/QUOTE]

Yes, This