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The term "lowest common denominator" is actually a mathematical term: it means the lowest number that contains all of the factors of a set of numbers. In other words, given a group of numbers, it is the lowest number that still contains all of them as factors. It has come to be used as an English idiom that means the exact opposite of that. Its used to mean the thing everyone has in common. But the thing everyone has in common would be the greatest common factor: the mathematical term that means, given a group of numbers, its the largest number that all of those numbers contains.|
Originally Posted by Fiery_Redeemer
?
Sorry, maybe I don't know what lowest common denominator means. English thing again. I thought it meant = low IQ person, no real skills, loves simple things, easily amused, likes TV, simple easy games, loves simple plots, wants good guys to wear white hats, bad guys to wear black hats, wants to be told exactly who to cheer for in a movie / TV show as well as what to do at work, and wants the appropriate gender to be dressed as skimpy as the medium allows. What I just said, that's me. I will admit, I didn't understand what you just said. Sorry for being dense. |
In other words, given the numbers 6, 9, and 15, the greatest common factor is 3 (all the numbers are divisible by 3) and the lowest common denominator is 90 (90 is the smallest number divisible by 6, 9, and 15). When people say they are the least common denominator, they are usually trying to imply something like "my skills are so low, everyone can do what I can do." In other words, everyone contains my skills. That would be a common factor, perhaps the greatest common factor, but not the least common denominator. The phrase "least common denominator" has probably come to be used because it contains the word "least" in it.
Basically, the greatest common factor is something that everything else contains. The least common denominator is something that contains everything else. But the phrases aren't used that way: they are colloquially used in exactly the opposite way. And its a personal pet peeve of mine that that is wrong. But if English is not your first language, then you're using the idiom in the same way all other English speakers do. Incorrectly, but identically.
Its interesting how many people assume certain terms are universal when they are not. Years ago I was in a situation where the phrases "in-band" and "out of band" were being used, and more than half of people for whom English was not their native language had no idea what those phrases were intended to mean. Its not that they didn't understand the words, but their languages did not use those phrases to mean what they mean in English: they used completely different terms that even when translated to English to me made equally little sense.
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If future content is not more difficult than what we have now, what is the POINT of gaining Incarnate abilities? |
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
I, personally, am an excellent player. But one person can't compete a TF solo (except maybe for Mind Doms, but that's another story). The people I run TFs with - and mark me, we run infrequently; it was perhaps once or twice a month when we were doing regularly, and it's been months since that happened - run a gambit from slighter better than me to so wrapped up in concepts and ideas that powers come a close tenth to prime interests.
While we have completed all the top-tier TFs available to us before i19 (a couple of us are almost exclusively villain players, so we as a group don't have a STF under our belts, but this includes BSF, LRSF, and ITF), we have also failed all of those one or more times as well. Every run we make is not a success (but every run is not a failure, either). That, to me, is an ideal balance of challenge. That failure can come once in a while - due to bad luck, or the wrong mix of powers, or lack of time to regroup and try again - is perfectly fine. That failure should be certain - which I fear might come should "the most challenging content yet" grow to be a reality for future content - is not. All talk thus far of end game Incarnate content (and thus, for the purposes of this debate, appeals to non-Incarnate content are irrelevant) has been of trials and raids - and trials and raids of unsurpassed difficulty. If the developers want to put out some news about something else, I welcome the opportunity to be able to look forward to new developments. But so far they have been unwilling to discuss anything but these new, harder, bigger team packages, and it is from this that I base my idea that they are telling us this is what they intend to give us, and thus my objection to this being the direction they're choosing to take the Incarnate content. If someone with a red name wants to come in here and tell me I'm wrong, and that there's other content more to my liking for Incarnates on the horizon, I really wish they would do so. Until then, however, I will continue to express my displeasure with the content they have chosen to concentrate on. |
We have the first two pieces of the Alpha slot now, that's it. Are you really suggesting that we should get even MORE power than that without a difficulty increase to go along with it?
I'm speaking of content that requires Incarnate abilities, I will never say that they should go back and make normal level 50 arcs more difficult because some people are making a mockery of them with Incarnate abilities.
I suspect that future Incarnate content will contain at least a TF, and probably at least a few story arcs that will require whatever the latest Incarnate slot to be released is. It just makes sense, you have to unlock the Alpha slot to run Apex and Tin Mage, and you have to have it slotted to avoid being debuffed in them. I don't see future Incarnate TFs being much different.
All I'm really saying is: If Incarnate content is not inherently more difficult than normal content, it makes gaining the power of an Incarnate completely pointless.
I'm already anticipating, in the future, 10 minute STFs being run by full Incarnates. They aren't going to go back and make current content harder just for Incarnates, because that wouldn't be fair to the level 46 that joins an STF to gain a level or two. So, the current "difficult" content will end up being pathetically easy for fully slotted Incarnate characters.
Yes, there should be soloable content, I never said there shouldn't be. But Task Forces tend to be where the bulk of the earth shaking storylines are found. All of the TFs in the game, with the possible exception of Katie Hannon and Moonfire, revolve around a major event occurring that you have to avert.
Eiko_chan, you made mention, I believe, that it gets blase when the Avengers or JLA band together to fight a global threat every week. True, but what you're failing to address there is the fact that, as far as the game is concerned, every time you run a TF it's the first time that event has ever happened. When you talk to Synapse, he tells you about the Clockwork acting up, he doesn't say "Oh, hey, the Clockwork King is at it again, get a team to stop him for the 12th time this week." The game has to treat each TF like the first time it's ever happened because it would not be at all fair if only one team ever got to run any given TF because the event already happened.
Incarnate content will continue getting more difficult, because you are gaining more power. You said that the JLA fighting a big bad every week gets boring after a while. Well, Superman spending all his time beating up muggers gets boring too. More power = more ability to take on bigger threats. Bigger threats = more difficult.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Thing is, the incarnate content is making you more powerful. So you're bar will raise on what you find difficult on your 50. Once you have a tier 4 alpha, maybe a judgement power and whatever else is coming you'll run an ITF and wonder why you used to struggle. Then you'll go and kick Director 11 and Battlemaiden and realise that sure, it was hard when it first came out, but you're stronger now and it's now just a challenge.|
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
I never said we were coordinated.
 I also don't mind that we fail the ITF or LRSF (nor do we consistently or routinely fail). I just don't want to see content much above that level, because we do sometimes still fail them. Content much above the level where we sometimes fail will become content that we consistently fail, which is (to me) an unacceptable level of difficulty. |
I would like to see some solo Incarnate content, but I'm enjoying what we get at the moment and trust the Devs to know the game and their player base. While this didn't work for PvP
it's worked so far for me.
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In my case, several reasons. First and foremost, the setting and nature of the game itself. Other than the Flying Nocturnal Mammal Man in Crazytown game, there really isn't any other good super hero game on the market at the moment. I guess there's also still the tactical superhero rpg from a few years ago, but I finished that a long time ago. The costume creator is fun to play with, to the point that I've filled my normal server with alts and gotten a second account. I like my main server, and I'm not ambitious enough to start a new solo SG on another server.|
Originally Posted by Phillygirl
I'm just curious why play an MMO? I mean if your and introvert who doesn't like teaming why not just play single player games?
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And having the *option* for social contact is... interesting, even if I don't go out of my way to use it. If I actually WANT to team for a little while, or talk to one of the handful of people on my global list, I can. Basically, however, I play any MMO *despite* the multiplayer aspect, not because of it. And to really blow your mind, MMOs are the only games I will play in any kind of multiplayer mode. Any other game I play, even FPS, is strictly in single player mode with or against AI NPCs.
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I can identify with this, I'm the same. I like playing with or against friends in games if they come over. Online, especially against strangers, CoH is the only one I've cared to try, because the game sounded fun.
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Originally Posted by ShadowsBetween
And having the *option* for social contact is... interesting, even if I don't go out of my way to use it. If I actually WANT to team for a little while, or talk to one of the handful of people on my global list, I can. Basically, however, I play any MMO *despite* the multiplayer aspect, not because of it. And to really blow your mind, MMOs are the only games I will play in any kind of multiplayer mode. Any other game I play, even FPS, is strictly in single player mode with or against AI NPCs.
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That is also a direction frequently requested my many (I'd say the majority of) players, and telling us that we can't have it simply because you don't want it is likewise unacceptable.
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Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
Also at stake is the assurance that the Incarnate content will be "the most challenging content yet". That is also a direction undesired by many players, and telling us to simply skip the new advancement system to avoid it is likewise unacceptable. |
@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
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You're still missing the point. Why would we (introvert people) want or need to learn those 'skills'. We're not anti-social (that's something else entirely). We know how to interact with people, we're not socially inept. We're not lacking 'skills'. We're not missing out on anything. We just prefer to be by ourselves, or with a small group of close friends/family in some cases, in peace and quiet when we want to relax instead of going to big social gatterings and parties to unwind. Parties are fun, but they're not relaxing for me. They're mentally very draining.|
Originally Posted by Bronze Knight
I'm not asking you to "unlearn" anything. I'm asking you to learn.
Learn as in acquire new skills or compensations for situations. Something every one is capable of. You as an introvert may have difficulty with that, but you can do it. Continually placing yourself in situations were you need those skills was simply the fastest way I could think of for you to acquire them. |
An in game example: I love leading TFs and events. Even the ones that feel like herding cats. It's great. But if after a particular fun TF the same team wants to do another one, I almost always decline to join. I go play solo for an hour or so instead (or read a book or some other loner activity outside the game), just to relax and recharge my batteries.
@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
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My post was directed at those that refuse to team at all ever and believe that all content should have a solo element.
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Originally Posted by TrueMetal
An in game example: I love leading TFs and events. Even the ones that feel like herding cats. It's great. But if after a particular fun TF the same team wants to do another one, I almost always decline to join. I go play solo for an hour or so instead (or read a book or some other loner activity outside the game), just to relax and recharge my batteries.
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"Hypocrisy, the human inherent." "Let not this work be wasted, apply yourself always."
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I believe you (I can and do team too. I'm not sure how many times I have to say that. I'm really getting tired of repeating myself.) I wouldn't describe actively engaging in draining-but-enjoyable activity to be "casual", though. I don't think most people consider the workout they do at the gym to be "casual", unless they're doing low-impact stuff that doesn't drain them. That was what I objected to - the idea of an introvert engaging in "casual teaming". Introverts can (and do!) team - but I don't think they do it casually.
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Originally Posted by Silver Gale
You probably won't believe me
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Aw man. On the one hand, that's a great lesson. On the other.. Linguistics says the standard usage is not wrong.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
LCD GCF stuff
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It's such a struggle, when simple critical mass can make two plus two not equal four.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.
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I think you skimmed past my post in this thread that explicitly states that the alpha slot is something that can be soloable, and that I'd be happy of the rest of the systems is as soloable. I also like how the shard rate increases on any team so it allows for PUG play (which is what I do mostly - self interest here) not just taskforce play.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
It doesn't remain to be seen. Its possible to solo your way to filling Alpha. I've done it myself on a scrapper. QED.
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I like how you get best rate for taskforce, then random mission teams then solo. I consider it a good mechanic for promoting team play without buggering the 'pure' solo player.
I wouldn't say that doing it on a scrapper implies anything special over any other less solo friendly AT.
My comment, in context is that it remains to be seen about future unlocking of different incarante abilities. And yes, that does remain to be seen, as its in the future and all. I have interpreted the letter is probably the most negative way on first reading. I am most likely wrong to do so.
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| I don't think anyone can say what you want them to say. |
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| The current stated direction is to provide soloing opportunities to participate in the Incarnate system, albeit they will be deliberately slower (or rather, the teaming opportunities will be explicitly designed to be faster, ala the shard dropping mechanics). |
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However, no one is going to promise you anything about the future that hasn't been designed or decided yet. The best you're going to get is as far as I know this general design direction hasn't changed yet. If that's not good enough for you, you're never going to get a better one, ever. The devs are prohibited from making such forward-looking statements in general. The devs are going to do what's best for the game, or rather what the company tells them to do that is in their opinion the best for the game, and they are not going to tie their future hands with promises to you or me. This shouldn't need to be stated, but it often has to be it seems. |
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| .. am committed to giving you insight into where we are going, what we are doing, and how AWESOME its going to be (to steal a favorite word from War Witch). With the pure ambition of Issues 18, 19, 20, and 21, I know weve been focused on development and a little quieter than usual on the forums, but that doesnt mean we havent been listening. We want you to have an active voice in where we are going |
I'm asking for insight on the general direction about soloing and the incarnate end game. About the next issues Incarante slot.
Do you understand this is different to asking the devs to tie thier hands for the future of the rest of the game forever?
If NCsoft is serious about wanting to listen, (and I believe they are) then don't ya think they are probably serious about having players speak up about thier concerns.
If there is as you claim, a stated direction is to provide soloing opportunities already, then all I need is a pointer to that.
I don't suffer from altitis, I enjoy every minute of it.
Thank you Devs & Community people for a great game.
So sad to be ending ):
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I read every word of every post in every thread I respond to. Regardless of length. My assertion stands.
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Originally Posted by tanstaafl
Please do not try to read my mind. You haven't even read my posts in this thread.
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Please use this thread to discuss concerns and issues related to the soloability of the end game and of the game as a whole.
This thread has been created further to the discussion that arose from "January 2011 Producer's Letter to the Community".
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Right. So why the comment about proving to me about soloing the alpha slot?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I read every word of every post in every thread I respond to. Regardless of length. My assertion stands.
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I don't suffer from altitis, I enjoy every minute of it.
Thank you Devs & Community people for a great game.
So sad to be ending ):
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Yes, but what we've been asking for "content for 50's" not "mindless WOW style raiding and teaming for phat loot". The two are dramatically different - the first is consistent with that CoX has been to date, the second is a radical change in the way the game is played.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Because lots and lots of players have been asking for it for a very long time
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I sincerely hope the suits haven't made this decision in the misguided belief that it will attract WOW players to CoX. I've seen that happen in another MMORPG (changing playstyle to attempt to attract players from a different MMO), and it was the kiss of death.
http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/
I am somewhat of an introvert, but I have never understood some solo players' need to have everything accessible that groups have. It started with bases. "Oh woe is me, I'll never have enough prestige to build a cool base." With choice comes consequences. I don't feel badly for people who make their own decisions fully knowing the results of what their actions will bring.
This is an MMO. The MM stands for "Massive Multiplayer." If you want to play solo, go play a console game.
This game has been dumbed down so much it's ridiculous. I say, bring on the challenges. Some of us encourage solving problems and actually get a sense of satisfaction at beating a worthy foe.
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I don't get why people expect to solo in an MMO. Makes no sense. Having said that, some solo content is cool. I think we have lots. I don't think epic/end-game content should be completely soloable. You want to unlock great new powers but want to be able to do it on your own? Nah. Pass. Good riddance to the people that like to solo and whine when they can't do it all the time. Chances are good we were never teaming anyway so you won't be missed (by me, anyway 
).
Make the end game stuff mostly teaming with a touch of solo play. Might be the best compromise in an MMO.
As far as the sentiment, as a skim shows it coming up a bit more -
Right now we have only the *tip* of incarnate content. There has, quite frankly, been a lack of raid/team "things" to do - a few, yes, but compared to the mass of content in the game, it's paltry. Now, we're being faced with a big threat, and are being given a power upgrade to do it - but that doesn't mean it's ALL going to be like that.
The game itself, in most instances, has been decent (to varying degrees) at scaling the same content for solo vs small vs large group automatically. They then gave us tools to adjust our OWN difficulty - down slightly, upwards greatly, first with the five "rep" settings, then with the more fine-grained ones we get now (yes/no bosses, avs, X many players, X levels.)
Claws is right in saying the incarnate content would HAVE to be more difficult "otherwise, what's the point?" And given what they did to, really, boot people in the head and get them to realize it's more than "just some more content," I'd say starting off with these TFs/raids is actually MORE appropriate than giving a bunch of soloable content.
Doesn't mean there won't be more soloable content in the same level/difficulty range.
As for the "Why solo in an MMO, go play a console game," well, I'll just point your obviously *genius* selves to the search function to find the perfectly legitimate reasons that have come up every OTHER time this has been discussed.
So far, I haven't had trouble soloing any end game stuff with toons who don't have trouble soloing other aspects of the game.
My toons who already have trouble soloing have trouble soling the end game stuff.
I found my defenders unable to get the alpha unlocked without outside help. I've also helped other defenders that were unable to do it by playing my tank.
...but what is this thing about getting to 60? Where was that announced?
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It wasn't, as far as I know. If anything, it's based on the fact that the Incarnate system is adding power progression without adding level progression. Once we have all ten (or whatever) slots unlocked, the effect will be *as if* they added ten more levels to the level cap, even though they didn't. IE, you'd be able to go to Cimerora and curb stomp the boss goons as easily with your "still level 50 on the character sheet" hero as any normal level fifty could deal with the critters in... well, whatever the level 40 zone is, I forget.
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Originally Posted by JayboH
I found my defenders unable to get the alpha unlocked without outside help. I've also helped other defenders that were unable to do it by playing my tank.
...but what is this thing about getting to 60? Where was that announced? |
Wow. Lets see, a few of the last few posts... words that call people offensive names like the inappropriate use about someone having mental deficiency (not repeating the actual word, reported, for all the good it will do, because that was really offensive, at least to me having my best friend with CP), "good riddance" etc... I can't in due conscience approve your behaviour. This is as far as the board rules will permit me to go. Sad that we do not get the same consideration. Hopefully these people's interactions IRL without a board mod is more polite.
That being said, I'd like to thank the very polite and astute PMs I've gotten over my posts. I honestly do hope there's enough variety for all playstyles, but since I'm mostly interested in solo play due to the game engine, I hope there will be some significant solo content I'll enjoy this 2011. Good luck with your challenging Task Forces. I hope they match your expectations.
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There are 10 Incarnate Slots in total to be unlocked. If you consider each one "a level," then someone with all 10 slotted up and ready to go would be "level 60."|
Originally Posted by JayboH
I found my defenders unable to get the alpha unlocked without outside help. I've also helped other defenders that were unable to do it by playing my tank.
...but what is this thing about getting to 60? Where was that announced? |
Actually putting in 10 more levels would be a nightmare, since everything about the game, IOs, purples, the number of powers you have, the number of slots you have, everything is all based on capping you at 50. Plus designing enough content to get you from 50-60, while making the level cap be something to strive for, not just something to have, would take a huuuuuge amount of time. It would also immediately invalidate all the level 50 stuff (ITF, RSF, STF, etc etc) they have in the game now, much like the Eden and Sewer trials got ignored after the 40-50 game launched.
So the Incarnate system is a way to get you more powers and more things to do after 50 while maintaining a lot of the things in the game that work really well right now.
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I never made any attempt to prove the Alpha slot was soloable. I stated as a fact that it was soloable, and therefore your assertion was false on its face. Lets connect the dots:|
Originally Posted by tanstaafl
Right. So why the comment about proving to me about soloing the alpha slot?
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You:
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I'm not complaining that I have to play my character to get to 60. I'm complaining that I have no choice other than to team to get to 60. This is not something that City has ever done before - locked level progression behind teaming. |
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| They still haven't. |
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| It remains to be seen. I hope I am wrong. |
Will they, in a year, or two, or three, or ten? Its theoretically possible, but they've made no statement suggesting that and lots of statements contrary to that: in beta they stated explicitly that the intent was to allow for a solo path to Incarnate power that would be slower and possibly more difficult than the teaming options. This statement has been repeated often since the release of I19 and even before that.
Its worth noting that in I18 beta, there wasn't originally an obvious soloable path to fully pursuing Alpha. This was considered a failing of the system by the beta testers and the devs acknowledged this, adding the shard system to address that point and stating directly that it was their intent moving forward to have a solo option to Incarnates of some kind. However, they cannot and will not make promises of the precise nature or details of future content not yet implemented. Not just for Incarnates, but for anything. Its simply not allowed. So I do not need to be a mind-reader to state that when you say you want a red name to come here and tell you what the future Incarnate systems will look like as to their soloability, beyond that sort of statement which I've already given you they will not, without permission, be able to accomodate you. Not because I have some great insight into your mind, but because I know the rules under which the devs operate.
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(Sorry, pet peeve. You're thinking of the greatest common factor, along with everyone else on the planet that misuses that term).
Sorry, maybe I don't know what lowest common denominator means. English thing again. I thought it meant = low IQ person, no real skills, loves simple things, easily amused, likes TV, simple easy games, loves simple plots, wants good guys to wear white hats, bad guys to wear black hats, wants to be told exactly who to cheer for in a movie / TV show as well as what to do at work, and wants the appropriate gender to be dressed as skimpy as the medium allows. What I just said, that's me. I will admit, I didn't understand what you just said. Sorry for being dense.