Quote:
Team forced? It's the only part of the game that flat out tells you you have to go solo for missions |
Originally Posted by Capa_Devans
Team forced - Praetoria sucks if you're a squishy. It's City of Ambushes and I never make chars there now. Well-written but far too irritating on anything other than a tank/scrapper/stalker.
|
Quote:
| [Gear focused - The necessity of Apex/Tin having the Alpha slotted (or be useless) isn't a welcome one but at least the shards will drop when solo. Very slowly. Level-restricted TFs/content is one thing but gear restricted is an unwelcome change. |
Quote:
|
Raid-focused/forced - I'm looking right at you Cathedral of Pain. This is EXACTLY what I would hate CoX's end game content to become. Bigger isn't necessarily better. Of all the TFs in the game I will run this last. Is it hard? Not always? Is it a gigantic pain in the rear? Yes and that is why I won't run it. I do not want to sit around for an hour coordinating three teams. It's a waste of my (paying playing) time. This Trial stinks of other MMO's and I hope it is the absolutely the last time we see something like that. |
Multi-team challenges are an important part of an MMO, as they can give an epic scale that single team fights can't reach.
Quote:
| You spent years encouraging odd builds and altitus and now you change to must have x gear. |
Quote:
| There's a definite shift in focus and it is off putting to those who have played this game for years. Unless you think getting other MMO players here replaces those of us who will get irritated and tired of this new direction. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
Actually, it does - that's the basic requirement of an MMO - that players can come together to perform tasks and challenges.
|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
MMO != "must team."
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
I'd prefer to get all eight shard checks the team gets if I overcome the same challenge solo that they do as a team.
|
Originally Posted by EarthWyrm
Are you actually suggesting the removal of the "teamed-shard" bonus?
|
Quote:
An important distinction is that incarnate advancement isn't just strictly gear, it's a form of permanent character advancement. Your character gains these things and keeps them forever; the only time you 'lose' or trade out one of your incarnate boosts is when you're getting another one that contains the benefits of the one you're 'losing'.|
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
It is something new that applies only to shards. It is a bonus for teaming. Not having it is not a punishment. Having it is a bonus. Removing a bonus isn't a punishment - it's removing a bonus.
|
In a real way, Incarnate Shards are our alpha slot XP. Now, the granularity of this and whether it's good or not is something you can discuss, but the fundamental here is that we're not talking about 'loot' in the traditional sense.
Right now, if a team of 8 goes stomping through content, statistically they will all get the number of shards they would have if they all had separately killed the same enemies by themselves. The advantage here is time saved; a team of eight goes through those enemies faster than most solo builds.
Similarly, when gaining XP, you can get a lot more a lot faster teaming than going solo.
In an MMO, the developers tend to want to incentivize teaming for advancement, giving a common reference point for balance, and ... generally speaking? It's social folks who tend to keep an MMO alive and well.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.
|
There's nothing wrong with providing avenues for soloing. I like soloing. But if I want to solo and still reap the maximum amount of reward a game can give me, I play a single-player game, not a multiplayer game. I understand that by soloing in a multiplayer game, I am making things more difficult on myself, which means I either have to advance through the game more slowly or else become skilled enough at the game to be able to be as effective as an entire team.
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
Quote:
"Can" is not "Must." The only requirements for an MMO to BE an MMO is that it's a persistent (not instanced, such as Diablo/D2/Halo/etc) world and that it can handle a large number of players (as opposed to single team) at once. |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Actually, it does - that's the basic requirement of an MMO - that players can come together to perform tasks and challenges.
|
There is no teaming requirement.
Individual tasks may be easier or even be designed to require a team. SOME games may be designed around that. But that's an individual design choice. It's no more a *requirement* for something to be an MMO than having the design include elves, magic swords, etc. is.
I really don't think teaming needs explicit (or even implicit) incentives. People make teams for all sorts of reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with reward (in fact, I have never teamed because of a reward I would get for doing so). Just last night, I teamed up with some folks simply to help them out, because they were having trouble with Trapdoor (I'd just finished soloing Ramiel's arc when they started teaming up). I stuck with them through the whole arc, just to help. That's pretty typical for my teaming.
Other reasons I team: I feel like playing with my friends (this is ususally the case when my VG gets together); I want to see a TF (usually with my VG, but this is why I've gone on a couple PuGs); or because I just darn well feel like it.
The fact that I would get more rewards (XP, Inf, or whatever) from teaming has never been a factor in my decisions.
Maybe I'm just a better person than most teamers.
Quote:
Aaand we're done.
|
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
Maybe I'm just a better person than most teamers.
|
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
The fact that I would get more rewards (XP, Inf, or whatever) from teaming has never been a factor in my decisions.
Maybe I'm just a better person than most teamers. |
That's... kind of astonishing. Do you have any idea how arrogant that sounds? "Maybe I'm just a better person"?
Different people have different things they're after when they play a game like this. For you to actually go and lay a MORAL WEIGHT to your objectives versus other people's objectives like that, is ... astounding. I really can't believe you WENT there.
I solo. A lot. I spend a lot of effort into making sure I _can_ solo effectively, on every character I play. And, in fact, when I decide to PLAY City of Heroes purely for my own enjoyment, I usually do it by myself.
Often things like, "I want to experience this storyline." Well, I do that better alone than I do with other players, because sometimes I get slow, and don't think other people want to wait on me.
Maybe it's, "I want to see if I can take on this challenge." Usually, the challenges are things I can only really tell if I succeeded or not if I'm the only player involved. Teammates skew whether or not I know if I managed it, or they give me things I wouldn't otherwise have. Very occasionally, the conditions might require a teammate or two.
When I decide, "I'd like to get a bunch of XP quickly" or "I need to get <y> reward quickly", I grab a team. That's How It Works.
... and for you to have the GALL to suggest that because I make that decision for those reasons, you're a BETTER PERSON than me?
Seriously?
Are you REALLY going to take that position?
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.
|
Quote:
*heh* i feel the same way about how "quantum leap" gets used. It's the smallest possible change in state or value with no possible values in between.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Basically, the greatest common factor is something that everything else contains. The least common denominator is something that contains everything else. But the phrases aren't used that way: they are colloquially used in exactly the opposite way. And its a personal pet peeve of mine that that is wrong. But if English is not your first language, then you're using the idiom in the same way all other English speakers do. Incorrectly, but identically.
|
"This new computer is a quantum leap forward in processing power" is not used to mean that it's the smallest possible increase in processing power that can be made, but technically it should.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
I'd prefer to get all eight shard checks the team gets if I overcome the same challenge solo that they do as a team.
|
In regular teaming your chances of getting any other drop for the same number of defeats is lower than if you were solo.
My Widow running +1/x6 gets the same number of Incarnate shards as any member of a team of six moving at the same pace would, but i get far more recipe and salvage drops by soloing.
Edit: i'm not sure if you're attempting to obfuscate your argument by seemingly treating the whole team and and the individual players at different points as if they were interchangeable, but they're not. They're really not. The thing with shards is that you have the same chance for every defeat you participated in to get a shard regardless of how many other players are on the team. 1 defeat=1 chance to get a shard. (Modified by rank of course.)
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
Quote:
Only in the face of the claim that teams have to have better rewards or no one would team. I don't believe that's true; I think it's a grossly invalid argument.|
Originally Posted by Void_Huntress
Are you REALLY going to take that position?
|
If it isn't an invalid argument (if, in fact, teams would suffer if people could do as well solo), then yes, I will gladly play the moral high ground card, because I think there's something terribly wrong with that.
I don't believe it's actually the case (for starters, the number of people that can solo x8 is incredibly small; most people can't, so the "need to team to face and overcome bigger challenges" thing will always be there,) and resorted to hyperbole to make the point.
If the only reason you team is to get better stuff (while still facing the same challenge you could alone), I do, honestly, believe there is something wrong with your value system.
(EDIT: I want to be perfectly clear, so I'm going to state it explicitly, I have no problem with people that want to team because a team lets them face higher challenges than they could solo and still come out triumphant. This is only referring to (as a hypothetical) folks that can already solo x8, but join an eight-person team because it means they get better rewards (and no other reasons that would still make them team if they didn't get better rewards.)
Quote:
Is it safe to say that if the emphasized text is common place then there is some other balancing issue at hand? |
Originally Posted by Schismatrix
And you do. If you defeat X minions, Y Lt., and Z bosses in the same time period as a team of 8 you get the same number of chances at a shard as any member of the team would.
|
Or to put it another way...when all else being equal (8 of your clones in a team) can only manage to go through mobs in the same rate as 1 of you, i would think something else needs to be looked at as well.
Separate note...someone listed benefits for teams. Can i dare say that teams are a bit safer...maybe? I mean, you have up to 7 other people to back you up with buffs, heals, teammates as aggro buffers between you and an entire mob group as well as adding damage in order to kill mobs faster thereby giving mobs less chances to hurt individual team members as opposed to solo.
Quote:
Bull, Soloers arent going to join you anyway, and small teamers will not ether unless their friends are not on at the moment, etc. So If they are not joining you now, then getting some love on this issue not going to effect you in that way.
|
Originally Posted by McCharraigin
Hah..I just jumped into the thread here but I can answer this one.
In order to team, the teamers need folks to team. If the players are soloing, they are not teaming. This alarms the teamers big time as less fish in the pot means less a lower chance to find teams. That is why they are soo vocal, and using simply horrible terms to describe "Team Solo" "Team Solo" is bad news for "Team Team." Lisa-Sad Panda |
Look, the point is that it seems that team oriented trials are coming as the focus for incarnate abilities, and there are some strong hints of what this may be like in current recent content (the shard unlock arc, Tin Mage, Apex, CoP, released info on BAF...).
This seems to be in line with what 'end game content' means in other MMOs (no idea, I don't play any others).
This makes some happy, makes others afraid.
.
.
.
The point is large, team/raid content can be fun, and clearly ups the ante in terms of challenge. I am OK with that.
However, we are talking about superheroes here. And the ability to go off and achieve something solo that is above and beyond is also cool and also fun.
It isn't about catering to introverts or extroverts. It is, as much as possible, about making the game successful and fun for all of us, depending on our mood, tastes, opportunities, and schedules.
I'll join the trials, or TFs or whatever is coming, and I'll have fun. But, to answer the OP (emphasis mine):
Quote:
If my incarnates don't have the opportunity to play some awesome incarnate level story arcs and shine solo if I want.... yeah, my interest will wane. And likely quickly.
|
Originally Posted by Avatea
Please use this thread to discuss concerns and issues related to the soloability of the end game and of the game as a whole.
|
City of Heroes was my first MMO, & my favorite computer game.
R.I.P.
Chyll - Bydand - Violynce - Enyrgos - Rylle - Nephryte - Solyd - Fettyr - Hyposhock - Styrling - Beryllos - Rosyc
Horryd - Myriam - Dysquiet - Ghyr
Vanysh - Eldrytch
Inflyct - Mysron - Orphyn - Dysmay - Reapyr - - Wyldeman - Hydeous
Chyll, I consider your point of view to be one of the most reasonable I've read yet in this thread. Thank you for that.
I really like the idea of a repeatable, soloable story arc/mission as a means of getting shards. It sets a baseline that has nothing to do with random chance and allows the player to know they will get some definite progress over time. With our current system there is no guarantee of any progress whatsoever over a given time frame if you happen to just be unlucky. The Devs recognized this was a potential issue with the IO system, or they wouldn't have given us Merit Rewards and Alignment Merits. Why should the Incarnate system be any different?
Quote:
That's already in the game |
Originally Posted by Steel_Shaman
I really like the idea of a repeatable, soloable story arc/mission as a means of getting shards.
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
I'd say this is a great idea. Perhaps a random roll option for three pieces of Incarnate salvage (high chances of shards, low chance of a named Incarnate salvage)
|
Originally Posted by JKCarrier
That would work. Another, possibly easier fix would be to let us buy Shards with Merits or Alignment Merits. Even if the price were extremely high, it would at least be a goal that you could make steady progress towards, rather than relying on the whims of the RNG.
|
Quote:
You know very well what we are discussing and it is not currently in game. You've made it perfectly clear you just love the Incarnate system the way it is and want nothing at all to change. Not all of us feel that way, as should be obvious. So we are trying to discuss changes to the game that let all of us have fun. Your opposition to that is clear, and I do not understand it. It's almost like you want to see people leave over this.
|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
That's already in the game
|
Quote:
Thanks for posting it, but there's no chance for some posters to respond kindly. All the winkies, and "no offence but here is why your opinion sucks" posts of some people has all the disingenuous social backstabbing I've seen at parent-child group meetings at school... parents putting down other parents, putting down your kid(s), with all the one-up-manship, subtle put downs, and condescension I've had to put up with from room moms & pops over the years (If the states even has room moms and pops... dunno)|
Originally Posted by Steel_Shaman
Seriously, just stop. You know very well what we are discussing and it is not currently in game. You've made it perfectly clear you just love the Incarnate system the way it is and want nothing at all to change. Rather, you'd have everyone that doesn't like the system as it is just suck it up and play your way or quit the game. At this point your responses feel more like trolling than anything else.
|
At least a good old fashioned bar brawl with fisticuffs and a night in jail has much more honest anger and antipathy in it by everyone concerned.
Or, said another way, thanks Steel_Shaman, but it's never going to stop. Some are experts at knowing exactly where the board mod line is, and they'll never cross it. They have too much practise. That, or woop, they get edited or banned. No true RL consequence. And, likely, out of anger, either myself, you or someone else will cross it, and WE'LL get edited, banned from board, banned from game, and they stay. Sadly, that likely is not even their goal. It's how they actually think, and they think they are right, logical, and cute. Or they ARE aware of it but will never admit it. Responding is not worth it (though even I get suckered into it on a bad day). Just address like minded people and encourage them to post. Ignore the others. You can't make a person stop to steadfastly state the sky is orange, not blue, no matter what you do... well... unless face to face that is, heh.
Save your blood pressure. But thanks for trying.
What I liked about this game was the fact you could solo at your own pace or team, and either way, you got to the end result without having to spend excessive amounts of time doing the same missions, task forces, or whatever.
So the Incarnate system requireing tons of shards that drop at a very slow rate solo, but a very high rate when teamed, and requireing running the same task forces over and over again to earn them anyway...
That seriously bothers me. "Risk vs. Reward" is a lousy balance formula, because "risk" essentially is nonexistant. TIME on the other hand is precious. I don't want to waste TIME grinding the same content over and over and over again to get what I see as minimal progress towards "the next level" whatever that level is.
Soloability is as important as teaming. Any content that is NOT a task force must be soloable for all characters, not just Arcanaville's scrappers. And there MUST be non task force content. in every issue.
True Starcloud. In fact, this game was described to me as a “Log in for an hour instead of lunch and you see huge progress” kind of game. The person said a dev said that was the design of the game. Of course, that’s a he said, she said, no reference, can’t prove it, but it showed true so far, at least for me. Sure, there’s a few super time sinks, like the top damage badges for the CDO’s among us, like me (btw, that’s OCD but in alphabetical order, as it should be). But overall, friends of mine from EQ and WoW chewed up most content, from 1 to 50, in a month, no problem. Then they went back to their challenge and/or timesink games.
If (IF) Incarnates become a huge time sink, so be it. I won’t quit, but I certainly will like CoH less. One can hope it won’t be that bad, but we’ll have to wait and see.
Quote:
The only people who'd quit over this would be people who were going to quit anyway |
Originally Posted by Steel_Shaman
It's almost like you want to see people leave over this.
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
Prove it.
|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
The only people who'd quit over this would be people who were going to quit anyway
|
Quote:
Why can you even still see her posts? Seriously, a little /ignore goes a long way. It'd go farther if people would quit quoting her.
|
Originally Posted by Steel_Shaman
You know very well what we are discussing and it is not currently in game. You've made it perfectly clear you just love the Incarnate system the way it is and want nothing at all to change. Not all of us feel that way, as should be obvious. So we are trying to discuss changes to the game that let all of us have fun. Your opposition to that is clear, and I do not understand it. It's almost like you want to see people leave over this.
|
"Interaction" does not mean "Team."
I "Interact" with the people who buy and sell things on the market. I don't "team" with them. I "Interact" indirectly with the people who leave level 50 winter lords in Atlas. I certainly don't "team" with them. I "interact" with someone who asks a question. Doesn't mean I "team" with them. I "interact" with the people I hunt (or am hunted by) in PVP. I don't "team" with them.
MMO != "must team." All it means is an environment with multkple people on at once in a persistent world.