Gladiators worth saving?

Posi mentioned in his interview that in his opinion the worst failure CoH had has been the Gladiator system:

Broadly speaking, the reason why Gladiators failed is the reason why any other system in the game could "fail:" the initial implementation was flawed, and no effort was made to correct it because it didn't break any other features. Gladiators are profoundly unbalanced, and this has never been addressed. Basically, the problem that Gladiators have always had is the same problem that has driven nearly every AE fix since the launch of the system: individual NPCs are not individually balanced against each other. Of course, it was a much bigger problem for AE, because unlike Gladiator matches, AE grants rewards.

A correlation to this, of course, is that if this problem is ever fixed for AE, it would also be fixed for Gladiators if they bothered transferring the knowledge over. Another correlation is that if you want work done on improving a feature, attach rewards. The flaws will come to light very, very quickly.

One thing it lacks is critter-progression. You earn your gladiator with a badge, and there it is. You can't level it, equip it, or otherwise mess with it. Without a way to make progress, one of the major draws simply isn't there.

I'm not saying that the devs should try to add anything like that--it would be like adding a whole new game to the game, in the faint hope that it would breathe life into something most people just aren't interested in. I believe it would be wasted effort. However, if they decided to try to resurrect it, adding a way to gradually improve the gladiators would be one approach.

Meh, I'd change it so that the gladiator unlocks would allow you to purchase that creatue for influence then modify bases so you could raid your opponents base with the gladiators and your opponent could likewise unlock and purchase gladiators to use as defenders. Once the battle has been joined allow the SG members to come in and assit thier respective gladiators.

This is just off the top of my head so thats about all the thought I've put into it.

One useless system finding a use for another useless system.

Some of this is going to echo others, but -

1. No introduction to the system.

OK, you get a "Gladiator unlocked" message when you unlock one. So? It melts into the background with the "Inspiration full," "Salvage found" and all the other messages that clutter the screen. There's no "What is this gladiator thing," no real reason to use them, they're just... there, tucked away.

2. No information

Quick, tell me which gladiators are available and how you get them. I'm sure a *few* can be named, but there's nothing really indicating "These can be gotten, these are what you have - do this to get those." Not even on the "Gladiator setup" screen.

3. No progression

As mentioned. Yeah, you get the Mook! .... who then sits there and is a mook. There are no upgrades, no anything other than "Find something stronger, somehow."

4. No balance.

I think Night Widows (IIRC) were the most-complained-about gladiator - there's no way of getting any real balance there.

And you can't even go in with any particular expectation of winning or losing. Level 50 that has very few loses to level 20 that went out of their way to find them - and there's nothing particular they can DO about it. The match is usually predetermined as soon as you enter. Then it's just watching the train wreck unfold.

5. No reward for the player.

Well, except a badge or two, I think. No XP. No IO drops. No... anything, other than just standing there and watching NPCs kill each other.

Really, it was just a system that was... "there," and got pretty much no attention at all.

6. It's PVP.

OK, more proxy-vs-proxy, but you've got a good audience that wants nothing to do with PVP, or isn't all that interested, and you've got this *one* match type that relies nothing on player skill buried in the options of the (still pretty bad) arena interface. You're not going to get people interested.

I'd somewhat agree that we could just take the gladiators and turn them into base NPCs - and if you're on a secure (raidable) base, their abilities would make up part of the defense, should raids ever return. The system itself? I don't think it can be patched up and given enough attention (by the playerbase) to really make it worth it.

See my Guides and Tutorials

Add progress bars to the ones that have to be specifically hunted out. Also let us set them as a badge title without using /settitle. This will fix them for badgers, who are pretty much the only people who really care about them.

I will agree that having these guys wandering around our bases could be cool. Make them interactive and they could even have a use, like replacing the hideous salvage storage racks. I'm not entirely sure I'd trust a Freakshow or a Mook Capo to hang onto my salvage, but still, it would be cool.

I just really didn't see a point to it. It was fun for like 20 minutes to screw around with, and then I wanted to get back to all the other things in the game. Did I mention I don't like playing Masterminds? Pets aren't my thing. Now take that and add all the things to it Memphis_Bill said - no progression, no reward, not very exciting... yeah, just not attractive to me at all other than a brief novelty.

If I want to PvP vs. a human, I'll invite them to an Arena match (and get farmed, I'm bad).

The glads are just gimmicky and some of them are really OP, like the Archmage of Agony and the Widow with Smoke Flash.

Gladiators worth saving?

No.

If I wanted to play [a child's collectible card game in which critters are set to fighting one another] I would play [a child's collectible card game in which critters are set to fighting one another]

How to make them interesting again? Change the entire set up of it, make it a fun PvP game.

In my opinion the whole concept of it should be that you are leading a faction[s] against an opposing faction[s] and should be turned into a defend/attack style map.
This would make multiplayer very interesting for me personally if you started adding rewards to it then, they dont even need to be huge rewards. Just something as small as X recovery buff for X amount of time would be enough to get me interested! [Think about it, Apex TF in 30 mins, glad match in 10 for the buff for those interested]

While im at it, increase the age rating please so you can place bets on those monkeys in the fighting cage in pocket d! There is soooooooo much fun potential there! I know i for one would use any spare playing time between missions there! Long as it was purely random it'ld be always interesting!

Instead of a random generated map, put it in a giant Roman colliseum full of raving citizens with your heroes watching over the battles on their respective sides. Oh, and put a cool trumpet song in it before the match starts. What? I'm so not kidding about this.

Honestly, the idea of the gladiator system is rather flawed in this context.

It's a fun idea, but it's mostly a mini game and one that has little to do with super heroes or PVP at all.

I've never seen a comic book where super heroes sit down and have enemies they've defeated over the years hash it out with their friends enemies that have been defeated over the years...

There is no direct player VS player contact and it's not like you can give your gladiators specific commands, tell them what powers or tactics to use, it's pretty much 3 stances and 4 commands like mastermind pets. And while for mastermind pets it works for clearing out rooms of minions. when you have a Marcone slugger and a Freak Tank Swiper, all you can do is pretty much say "go bash each other" and sit there and watch... It's not engaging in the slightest.

Really it's a fun way to farm badges but the concept just doesn't work. Why is my hero ever going to have his pet freak slugger fight an Anathema? It's like Dog fighting with NPCs, for super heroes.... It doesn't fit.

Though I will say, a big problem is the fact that there is no introduction, information or tutorial in the system, it took me a long time to figure out gladiator badges weren't just decoration and you could actually fight with the things. And it doesn't help that it's linked to the PvP feature and in this game PvP isn't very popular so no one is going to use it's ******* redheaded step child.

The gladiator system is just plain boring. You have little to no impact on the fight once you enter the arena. You just get to watch a bunch of npcs attack eachother. Exciting.

That it is horribly unbalanced doesn't help either.

Worth saving? No, not really.

I have never even found anyone that would run a match with me. Had to dual box to try it. Way too hands off for my taste. I can see it being fun if it worked something like a miniatures battle. I wonder if going through the trouble of getting rid of it would improve game perfomance in any way?

It's inherently tied to the Arena, which has been deader than dead for years.

The devs should just forget about PvP, really. The tiny minority that's actually interested in it has been ungrateful and uncooperative, the game was never balanced around it, and it's just not fun.

when I first heard of the Gladiators I thought it was going to be like Final Fantasy Tactics. I don't know why I thought it would be a turn based chess match but I had pictured something like Star Wars Chess.

The rest of this game is totally interactive, gladiators are the most passive thing in the game next to hanging out in Atlas just to read Broadcast.

I think the Gladiator idea - or the idea of recruiting defeated enemies, only really works for Villains.

I'll give 'er a go.

I like really complex systems. That's why I create my spreadsheets and run my tournaments. Simple things bore me. The more complicated and inter-woven a system is the more I like it. So, if I were going to re-vamp the Gladiator system I would turn it into a strategy game of sorts.

1) All Gladiators are divided into groups by Origin: Magic, Mutation, Natural, Science and Tech. Each group has roughly the same number of Gladiators and each has powerful ones and not-so-powerful ones.

2) Gladiators are improvable but NOT through a leveling-up system. Each Gladiator has a pre-determined number of slots into which power ups can be fitted prior to battle. So, your Mook could be a relatively low power character but have five slots available for improving them while a Night Widow would start out as very powerful naturally but only have one or even no improvement slots.

3) Minor power ups can be purchased with inf at any arena. Such Power Ups may include regeneration boosts, endurance boosts, minor defense boosts, etc. Basically combat improvements that increase survival and battle capability. Purchased power ups are one-shot only. This also creates another inf sink to spend your hard earned cash on.

4) More powerful power ups are earned as recipe drops. Gladiator Recipes are given as rewards for defeating other Gladiators (whether you win the match or not) or as purchasable items via Reward Merits and/or Alignment Merits. These power ups may include things like new powers, increased attack speed, self-sacrifice detonation abilities and so on. They would use invention salvage and be crafted as normal recipes.

5) Energy Crystals are given to each player prior to battle. These Crystals are Origin Specific; they drain power from those of Origins other than their own and grant that power to those with the correct Origin. Consider this a blanket buff/debuff for all combat attributes within the effective range. Players can place their Crystal where ever they wish on the Arena map.

6) Maps, maps and more maps. Players can now hold their arena battles on ANY map available via AE. They can also opt to hold a Gladiator battle in the base of one of the competitors. This is only a representation of the base, so no damage done is done to the actual base.

7) Objectives. Yes, players can opt to just set their minions loose and watch them hack and slash but they can also choose from a myriad of other options. Capture the Flag is an option. Or multiple targets like a Patrol mission where all have to be reached before the game ends. Perhaps a version of King of the Hill where one holds the hill and the other player sends challengers until he takes it where upon it becomes the first player's turn to do the same. Capture and hold each room (which turns different colors on the map depending on which team Captain holds it). Oh, and none of this is limited to two player. Eight player King of the Hill or Capture the Map would be interesting.

8) Commands would be upgraded so you can program the AI of your individual Gladiators. Nothing too complicated; something like Patrol, Guard, Stealth, Aggressive, Find and Report, Set Up Ambush, that sort of thing. You examine the map, consider your goals and assign tasks to your minions. Each Gladiator has a quick key assigned to it so you can send the camera to it immediately or have it follow along on autopilot. You can change commands on the fly should your strategy fail or should an opportunity present itself.

9) Possession. You can infiltrate and directly command any of your Gladiators. The advantage to doing this is that Gladiator is imbued with powers from the Leadership pool (not Vengeance). You have access to the Gladiator's attacks and gain what advantage you can from not being restricted to a basic AI command. The disadvantage is every other one of your minions is on their own and your camera is tied to the one you are possessing so you can't oversee the entire effort. General or Warrior; it's up to you.

10) Customization. I would also set some system up by which you can mix and match your own rule systems. We can do this with AE, so why not with the Arena matches? You want a match where all of your fallen Gladiators are resurrected back at your base but there's a hostage in the map who will negate this power for every other team should one team manage to get her in range of their Energy Crystal? Go for it. You want to create an item of power that will summon a horde of Rikti Monkeys to fight on the side of whoever clicks it first? Why not? Combining AE functionality with Gladiatorial combat could be interesting.

I have a lot of other ideas, but I think this list is long enough. Like I said, heh, I love complexity.

i actually really enjoy gladiator fights, watching NPCs kill each other is quite entertaining to me

reasons i dont do gladiator fights more is:

1. poeple dont have very many gladiators to choose from
2. poeple dont know what the system is
3. large amount of poeple just plain dont care about them
4. and the last and prolly biggest thing is there are basically no incentives to actually do gladiator matches aside from the 2 badges associated with them