How long will the exploits go on?
By
Acemace,
Posted on: 2010-11-24 20:30 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Can someone please clarify for me...how is the current exploit doing anything different to the market than many of the marketeers have been doing all along?
Not long ago there was a thread going on the Market where one of the many marketeers was deliberately buying up large numbers of purple recipes to simply delete them, cranking up the market on them. To this action he was actually *praised* for what he was doing.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
I have several treasured characters who I PL'ed in various ways over the course of my CoH career (wolf missions, kora fruit, stealthing PvP missions, Dreck, X2 xp, etc)
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I have a friend who's played since may 04 who is always looking for a PL mission, he's had two accounts active for years, one's filled with 50's and he still plays and pays.
The notion that a PL'd toon will always lead to a lost subscription is just the boogyman the "leveling purists" drag out whenever the latest "farm" is devastating their gaming experience, somehow.
If someone doesn't like cox, you could throw a bag of purples at them and they'll still just uninstall the game.
PL'ing now and then, like 2XP weekends, just keeps a players interest alive, if you chose to take part in it.
Statesman dedicated himself to hunting down and killing pl'ing, and gutted at least one power set in the process.
Positron went berserk over the gift to pl'ing his team handed players, and turned off a number of returning subscribers in the process.
War Witch "seems" to have a fix it and move on pov, lest the aging game she helms looses anymore subscribers.
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That's completely reasonable.|
Originally Posted by GreenFIame
With the Release of i19 it will be Nerf, my guess is the only reason the Exploit hasn't been Stop yet, is because they want us to get 50's for the incarnates System.
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No, wait, i meant silly.
Personally i think it's because they didn't know about the farms until i19 was pretty much committed for release in the near future and the predownload was already in place. i don't know what the exact technical reasons for it would be, but i've noticed that the Devs do not release any patches to the live client when they're preparing to release a new issue in the very near future. They effectively freeze the live client at whatever the current version is when the update is nearly ready for release. This has been the general pattern since Issue 1.
Or... Yeah, sure, they want a bunch of unskilled, inexperienced 50s bumbling their way onto Incarnate TF teams to raise everyone's frustration levels during the TF. Pure genius.
Not that it's that hard to get to 50 anymore if you're really intent on doing so. Pick an alt to focus on, join some active global channels or active SG coalitions and focus on teaming with experienced players and running TFs, and you can hit 50 in less than a month without ever being in a farm. If someone's really that interested in reaching the new "endgame" they can get there quickly enough.
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Originally Posted by Schismatrix
That's completely reasonable.
... No, wait, i meant silly. Personally i think it's because they didn't know about the farms until i19 was pretty much committed for release in the near future and the predownload was already in place. i don't know what the exact technical reasons for it would be, but i've noticed that the Devs do not release any patches to the live client when they're preparing to release a new issue in the very near future. They effectively freeze the live client at whatever the current version is when the update is nearly ready for release. This has been the general pattern since Issue 1. Or... Yeah, sure, they want a bunch of unskilled, inexperienced 50s bumbling their way onto Incarnate TF teams to raise everyone's frustration levels during the TF. Pure genius. Not that it's that hard to get to 50 anymore if you're really intent on doing so. Pick an alt to focus on, join some active global channels or active SG coalitions and focus on teaming with experienced players and running TFs, and you can hit 50 in less than a month without ever being in a farm. If someone's really that interested in reaching the new "endgame" they can get there quickly enough. |
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I think you should shoot yourself in the head for coming up with this analogy. |
Originally Posted by TonyV
And yet you still didn't address my main point. Are you honestly trying to argue that "it doesn't affect you" is still a valid argument when these exploits most obviously affect players that have no desire to run them? Or are you just saying that it does affect everyone but that the net effect of exploits and those who use them is positive? Because that's suspiciously like what it sounds like you and some others here are saying, and that notion is incredibly stupid.
Once again, I'll try to be as clear as I can. People who initiate and propagate exploits should be banned. People who participate in exploiting should have their stuff taken away. People who try to justify exploiting, whatever idiotic rationale they come up with, do not have the long-term health of the game at heart and their opinions in this arena should be summarily disregarded. When I was younger, I heard a story once (probably an urban legend) about a man who suffered such agonizing migraines that he finally gave up. He shot himself in the head. As luck would have it, though, he lived and managed to destroy the part of his brain that was causing the migraines, and went on to live a long and happy life. I also heard a story (probably also an urban legend) about a man who was so despondent that he went to the roof of a skyscraper and jumped off. A strong updraft caught him, though, and blew him all the way right back to the roof that he had moments earlier jumped off of. He was so moved by the experience, believing that it was divine intervention that saved him for a higher purpose, that he devoted the rest of life to helping others who were thinking of taking such tragic action. Based on these stories, one could surmise that if you have a headache or are feeling a little down, you should shoot yourself in the head or jump off a building. These notions should be ridiculed for how foolish they are, as should be the notion that exploits are somehow good for the game or shouldn't be addressed in a manner that keeps similar activities from occurring again. |
I created the missions to simply help a few friends with some tough lvls, I never broadcasted it or advertised it to anyone and am just as annoyed as the rest of you that they have gone unnerfed for this long.
In my opinion they could have been nerfed along with the Spiderbots if the devs had simply taken more time to see the root of the problem as they work on the same concept.
If I had ever gotten a message or anything from the devs asking me to remove the arcs in the 3 or more weeks they have been up I would have done so, as I did today when they decided to ban one and that is fine with me, it will not be republished, if they wish to do the same to the others then fine but I am not purposely removing them and dealing with the aggro from rude people telling me to risk my account etc and honestly it wouldn't make any difference, If mine were removed there are tons of over versions made by other people that are exactly the same that they would just latch onto.
I'll do my part if I am asked, but I cant stop it completely this is not what I intended it to turn into, If the devs wish to contact me asking me to take them down then please do, I am almost begging you, but untill I have a reason that wont happen.
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Originally Posted by Aquabladez
I created the missions to simply help a few friends with some tough lvls, I never broadcasted it or advertised it to anyone and am just as annoyed as the rest of you that they have gone unnerfed for this long.
In my opinion they could have been nerfed along with the Spiderbots if the devs had simply taken more time to see the root of the problem as they work on the same concept. If I had ever gotten a message or anything from the devs asking me to remove the arcs in the 3 or more weeks they have been up I would have done so, as I did today when they decided to ban one and that is fine with me, it will not be republished, if they wish to do the same to the others then fine but I am not purposely removing them and dealing with the aggro from rude people telling me to risk my account etc and honestly it wouldn't make any difference, If mine were removed there are tons of over versions made by other people that are exactly the same that they would just latch onto. I'll do my part if I am asked, but I cant stop it completely this is not what I intended it to turn into, If the devs wish to contact me asking me to take them down then please do, I am almost begging you, but untill I have a reason that wont happen. |
Aqua, we've talked a few times in-game (we debated giving them stealth or Rooted), and I gotta say man, that is humility in action.
We would be so lucky to have that sort of honor in most areas of the game.
Cheers, mate.
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Link?
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Originally Posted by Phewmite
Not long ago there was a thread going on the Market where one of the many marketeers was deliberately buying up large numbers of purple recipes to simply delete them, cranking up the market on them. To this action he was actually *praised* for what he was doing.
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Instead of generating salvage, recipes, enhancements, etc, the farm generates nothing but money and tickets. So you get a bunch of recies and a little salvage dumped into the market. As the market drains out the current supply, prices begin skyrocketing.|
Originally Posted by Phewmite
Can someone please clarify for me...how is the current exploit doing anything different to the market than many of the marketeers have been doing all along?
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| Not long ago there was a thread going on the Market where one of the many marketeers was deliberately buying up large numbers of purple recipes to simply delete them, cranking up the market on them. To this action he was actually *praised* for what he was doing. |
You may have seen INF-destruction projects. But deleting purples is not the same thing.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
why is everyone acting like this the first time these have been seen ???
Seriously.. they have had the meow thing before this and the hamidon bubbles before that and there was something before that I cant remember....
People really just need to get over it...
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If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
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First of all, the thread like that I remember wasn't purples. Also, the guy doing that (purples or not) is not "many of the marketeers".|
Originally Posted by Phewmite
Can someone please clarify for me...how is the current exploit doing anything different to the market than many of the marketeers have been doing all along?
Not long ago there was a thread going on the Market where one of the many marketeers was deliberately buying up large numbers of purple recipes to simply delete them, cranking up the market on them. To this action he was actually *praised* for what he was doing. |
To answer the actual question you couched behind hyperbolic accusations, AE exploits increase the actual money supply in game relative to the amount of goods they create. People PL-ing in the AE don't create the same proportion of drops per inf created that they do in other content. Even if they take their tickets and roll up a nice distribution of bronze, gold, silver and salvage drops (which no one does) they stay in the map long after they hit the ticket cap, so they produce disproportionately more inf than tickets, and thus more than drops.
Even if this did nothing at all to market supply of goods, it would make the sale prices of market goods creep up, because there would be more money in the system chasing the same number of goods - inflation in a much more economically correct sense than the usual MMO use of the word ("prices on X went up!") But on top of that it actually reduces supply rates of certain goods. Very few people in these farms are using their tickets to create random common salvage. None of them are producing any purples. So now more money is chasing fewer goods.
When someone buys up all of something the market, that only creates a market supply drought as long as that person can keep up the purchasing. It doesn't change the actual rate of supply in the game for an entire category of items, like purples or common salvage.
Whether or not this is actually a problem depends on your perspective. High prices mean higher profits per sale, so if you actually use the market to sell stuff you can typically "keep up with the Joneses". It seems a lot of people despise high(er) prices on their face, irrespective of whether they represent an actual decrease in buying power. Others insist on viewing the market as a store, where only the sale prices of goods matter.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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that was our good friend, the aptly named Chaos Creator.|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Links or it didn't happen.
You may have seen INF-destruction projects. But deleting purples is not the same thing. |
he was disappointed that some purple or other wasn't selling for very much so he bought up and deleted most of them.
AFAIR the price bump didn't last long, because deleting a bunch of stuff nobody wants doesn't inspire more people to want it, it just creates a temporary supply deficit.
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My City Was Gone
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*facepalm x10*|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
that was our good friend, the aptly named Chaos Creator.
he was disappointed that some purple or other wasn't selling for very much so he bought up and deleted most of them. AFAIR the price bump didn't last long, because deleting a bunch of stuff nobody wants doesn't inspire more people to want it, it just creates a temporary supply deficit. |
I'm going to kill him when I see him in chat.
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Boss farms|
Originally Posted by Airhammer
why is everyone acting like this the first time these have been seen ???
Seriously.. they have had the meow thing before this and the hamidon bubbles before that and there was something before that I cant remember.... People really just need to get over it... |
Bubble Farms
Cat Farms
Chicken farms
Com Officer farms
Monkey farms
Those are the ones that I can think of that were all nuked.
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
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Except that people who used the exploit are very likely to suffer the banhammer. Get ready for the wailing and gnashing of teeth that will happen when people start getting banned after the exploit is fixed. They always wait until it is fixed to dole out the punishments for using the exploit.
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Originally Posted by GreenFIame
With the Release of i19 it will be Nerf, my guess is the only reason the Exploit hasn't been Stop yet, is because they want us to get 50's for the incarnates System.
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List of Invention Guides
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Honestly, i don't expect a mass banning of anyone who used the farms. Most likely the GMs will review the various farms as well as the activities of those who made or used them*. i expect some of the worst offenders will be suspended either temporarily or permanently, and some characters will have the levels rolled back, but a mass banning of anyone who created or entered a farm is very unlikely.|
Originally Posted by TerraDraconis
Except that people who used the exploit are very likely to suffer the banhammer. Get ready for the wailing and gnashing of teeth that will happen when people start getting banned after the exploit is fixed. They always wait until it is fixed to dole out the punishments for using the exploit.
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*Amusing side note: i've joined a few teams running various AE exploit farms, usually unknowingly and occasionally out of curiosity, and based on comments in some of the mission text it's amazing how many of the farm creators seem to believe that deleting the farm will wipe out all traces of it ever existing. After all, it's not like the data on virtually all activity in the game isn't automatically archived for datamining and evaluation purposes. Oh no, not at all.
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There won't be any mass bannings. Pissing off a good chunk of your playerbase is bad business.
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Originally Posted by Schismatrix
Honestly, i don't expect a mass banning of anyone who used the farms. Most likely the GMs will review the various farms as well as the activities of those who made or used them*. i expect some of the worst offenders will be suspended either temporarily or permanently, and some characters will have the levels rolled back, but a mass banning of anyone who created or entered a farm is very unlikely.
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From the original description of what infamy and influence were -- a measure of your ability to get people to provide you with assistance (i.e., enhancements or salvage or recipes) because of your reputation in the community, whether for good or ill (i.e., redside, it's through intimidation -- they do it because they're scared of you), I've never understood why you earned influence or infamy in AE missions. It seems to me that diving into your electronic navel, although it may be realistic enough for you to improve your skills with your powers, does nothing to increase your respect or fear in the community, and it certainly does nothing for the prestige of your SG. "xXxBlazingBoltxXx? He's that 'hero' who spends all his time running virtuals over in the AE building, isn't he? I've never heard of him taking down so much as a single Hellion or Skull; save your adulation for someone who's actually helped protect Paragon City."
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Originally Posted by Tiny_H
I agree with this. Yes it needs to be fixed. Until it is I don't think anyone is doing anything wrong by using it.
I don't see how it is an exploit. I would love somebody to explain exactly how it is a rules violation. The fault is with the Dev's, not the player base. I agree this thing needs to be fixed. I just don't see how it's players fault. I don't have to do anything different to run this mission than I would if I ran a radio mission. You don't need to logout, ghost, or any of the other tricks people did in past exploits. I know people don't like it, but I just see this as a Devs mistake. I can't blame people for using it. |
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"XxEvilfIrEBoltzxX? He's that jerk who spends all his time playing games in the AE, right? I don't think I've ever heard of him beating up anybody in the real world. Forget him."
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Originally Posted by srmalloy
From the original description of what infamy and influence were -- a measure of your ability to get people to provide you with assistance (i.e., enhancements or salvage or recipes) because of your reputation in the community, whether for good or ill (i.e., redside, it's through intimidation -- they do it because they're scared of you), I've never understood why you earned influence or infamy in AE missions. It seems to me that diving into your electronic navel, although it may be realistic enough for you to improve your skills with your powers, does nothing to increase your respect or fear in the community, and it certainly does nothing for the prestige of your SG. "xXxBlazingBoltxXx? He's that 'hero' who spends all his time running virtuals over in the AE building, isn't he? I've never heard of him taking down so much as a single Hellion or Skull; save your adulation for someone who's actually helped protect Paragon City."
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Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
I suppose you guys are gonna crucify me here..Take a moment to go get some boards, a hammer, and some nails before reading further. Heck, I'll make it easier for you- here's the hammer from my leathercraft toolkit.
Got the stuff? Ok, resume reading.
Yes, I've done some PL'ing in AE. I've had a few characters who've just been sitting around not getting much playtime, who've gotten stuck at various levels. So I've logged in with them and joined a few farm teams of various sorts, to gain a few levels, enough that they didn't feel gimped, or to get them over a hump. Getting SO's is a big help- before that, characters tend to feel pretty weak. That and a decent selection of powers to play with, so I'm not as dependant on my vet attacks.
I've got a level 37 MA/Regen scrapper I'm having fun running right now- he gained some of his levels in AE, but has also gained a decent amount from normal gameplay, I'm working on getting him the TF commander accolade. FWIW, I've played MA/Regen before on Protector server. But Protector is dead at the times I'm online, and I thought it easier to reroll the character- whole new name, character concept, costume, the works.
That said, I do have some caveats about PL'ing- I believe that if you're new to the game, you should abstain from powerlevelling. Learn how to get around, how to use your AT and powers, the game story, and so on.
That alone would cut out a lot of the 50s asking where the tailor is, or how to get to King's Row.
Also, I've only PL'ed AT's that I know my way around- scrappers being my favorite. However, were I to make a character whose AT I am not so familiar with like a defender, I would be much more hesitant to PL- I would want to take my time and get good with the AT, getting practice you just don't in an AE mission.
I really don't see the point of PL'ing all the way from 1-50, doing the same mission over and over. It seems boring and pointless, and even with Incarnates, this isn't the kind of game where life begins at the level cap.
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Just like real life then. |
Originally Posted by srmalloy
From the original description of what infamy and influence were -- a measure of your ability to get people to provide you with assistance (i.e., enhancements or salvage or recipes) because of your reputation in the community, whether for good or ill (i.e., redside, it's through intimidation -- they do it because they're scared of you), I've never understood why you earned influence or infamy in AE missions. It seems to me that diving into your electronic navel, although it may be realistic enough for you to improve your skills with your powers, does nothing to increase your respect or fear in the community, and it certainly does nothing for the prestige of your SG. "xXxBlazingBoltxXx? He's that 'hero' who spends all his time running virtuals over in the AE building, isn't he? I've never heard of him taking down so much as a single Hellion or Skull; save your adulation for someone who's actually helped protect Paragon City."
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Tyger (50), Mutation-Controller Mind/FF - oldest Mind/FF on Union
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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Its clear that some folk posting here have never worked a day of retail sales in their lives.
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Originally Posted by MunkiLord
There won't be any mass bannings. Pissing off a good chunk of your playerbase is bad business.
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The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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Originally Posted by TerraDraconis
Except that people who used the exploit are very likely to suffer the banhammer. Get ready for the wailing and gnashing of teeth that will happen when people start getting banned after the exploit is fixed. They always wait until it is fixed to dole out the punishments for using the exploit.
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Probably not quite that extreme, but it wouldn't surprise me if the people who built the mission and exploited it rather than report the issue lose their AE slots and receive a temporary lockout. I don't know City of Heroes' policies for dealing with these situations, but anyone who thinks they can do whatever they want just because the game doesn't instantly stop them is going to be disapointed eventually. God knows I've temp-locked plenty of players in my time for exactly this kind of thing, in a game world with a player base much smaller than this.
Some contributing factors:
- It is immediately obvious that this is a bug to anyone with some game experience
- Rather than report the bug, the players decided to exploit it for all it was worth
- The players shared the mission so other players could exploit it as well
The die are definitely being rolled. Anyone who still has this mission hosted in an AE slot would do well to remove it, so they can at least try to plead the case that they didn't know it was a bug when/if they are contacted.
Still, I believe my idea for exp in AE is the solution. Not reposting, you all can look if you feel like it.
I'm not one for the ban hammer, or taking the characters back to "x Level"; let them stay at the level they are until they have earned the same amount of exp correctly.
With the Release of i19 it will be Nerf, my guess is the only reason the Exploit hasn't been Stop yet, is because they want us to get 50's for the incarnates System.
Never play another NcSoft game, If you feel pride for our game, then it as well, I Superratz am Proud of all of you Coh people, Love, Friendship will last for a lifetime.
Global:@Greenflame Ratz
Main Toons:Super Ratz, Burning B Radical, Green Flame Avenger, Tunnel Ratz, Alex Magnus