Inherent Fitness
By
Afterimage,
Posted on: 2010-10-29 23:47 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Well, personal attacks and we're not even off the first page. And I don't even KNOW this guy. Welcome to the bandwagon, I guess. Before you go off, consider that the Devs HAVE addressed many of the things I've brought up (and have been vigorously flamed for discussing).|
Originally Posted by MajorPrankster
The OP is not interested in balance, only his idea of how the game should function, which, from numerous posts and heated arguments, is not what the majority of the posters here want, nor, it seems what the developers want.
No amount of reasonable or unreasonable discussion has ever gotten through to the OP about the fact his expectations of the game are the problem, not the game. Sad really. |
Yep, I figure I'm not in the majority here, and as I say, there's a lot to like in this. However, of all the issues with endurance I see, this doesn't really address many of them.
Just my opinion, of course.
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I'm not sure of this.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
It's more than just taking awhile that kept it from happening this way.
If they just went about applying a 30% END reduction to every single power, people would still take Fitness to get Stamina, and it would be the majority of people, just as it is now. So, what would change? Nothing. People would still complain about END issues, because people don't want to be slowed down.  |
I take stamina if, and only if, I tend to run out of endurance. On characters that don't run out of endurance, I'm unlikely to spend the slots. A 30% reduction in endurance consumed would likely, for most of my characters, make me not bother with stamina. Sure, it'd be occasionally useful, but it wouldn't be the difference between resting every fight and continuing through missions without stopping.
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This reply is interesting.|
Originally Posted by ShaneBattle
Doesn't it bother you a little that your "solution" doesn't solve your "problem" at all? Even slightly?
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Really, the solution I'd like to see would include a revamp of the entire system to balance the use of endurance across ATs and Powers. However, this is a lot of work and unlikely to happen any time soon. Simply altering the global recovery rate would probably be easier.
You're right, it doesn't address the problem I see, but it addresses some of it. That is, using my idea, lower AND higher level characters would be less hindered by endurance woes (accomplishing the same thing the inherent Fitness does, and more), while also allowing endurance management in general to become less debilitating (by having Stamina in addition to the global boost).
In any case, I don't see either happening. I just wanted to put the idea out there.
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Just as planned. /light|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
All this does is help lower level characters with endurance issues.
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| As I say, it's a laudable goal, but it's not the right way to go about it. |
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| What they should have done, and it would be a half measure as well, in my estimation, is simply raise the global recovery rate. That is, EVERYONE would recover endurance faster. Those with Stamina at L20 would recover it EVEN FASTER than that, perhaps to the point of not needing to worry about endurance unless faced with sappers or very long fights. |
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you do realize that if they lower end costs that damage will follow? and no they won't raise damage. it will be lowered. again, learn to build your toons. you seem to think that there is an end problem when time and time and time and time and time and time again you have been shown that there is not. and when asked for your build you don't even bother replying or say that you don't want it ripped apart. so you do not want help. just want to flab your gums, or in this format your fingers.
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Originally Posted by Ultimo_
This reply is interesting.
Really, the solution I'd like to see would include a revamp of the entire system to balance the use of endurance across ATs and Powers. However, this is a lot of work and unlikely to happen any time soon. Simply altering the global recovery rate would probably be easier. You're right, it doesn't address the problem I see, but it addresses some of it. That is, using my idea, lower AND higher level characters would be less hindered by endurance woes (accomplishing the same thing the inherent Fitness does, and more), while also allowing endurance management in general to become less debilitating (by having Stamina in addition to the global boost). In any case, I don't see either happening. I just wanted to put the idea out there. |
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Your particular approach is complex and time consuming to implement. A quick and dirty method to achieve the same results would be to add in an endurance modifier, similar to how damage modifiers are handled. Of course as I say this, brutes everywhere scream out in pain but are quickly silences as they run out of endurance.
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Originally Posted by Ultimo_
This reply is interesting.
Really, the solution I'd like to see would include a revamp of the entire system to balance the use of endurance across ATs and Powers. However, this is a lot of work and unlikely to happen any time soon. Simply altering the global recovery rate would probably be easier. You're right, it doesn't address the problem I see, but it addresses some of it. That is, using my idea, lower AND higher level characters would be less hindered by endurance woes (accomplishing the same thing the inherent Fitness does, and more), while also allowing endurance management in general to become less debilitating (by having Stamina in addition to the global boost). In any case, I don't see either happening. I just wanted to put the idea out there. |
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Ultimo_, i know you can't and won't understand this, but it's not simply a personal attack. If someone kept posting that mob damage needs to be cut in half in almost every thread they posted in because all of their Tanker's defenses were usually slotted with nothing but endurance and recharge reducers and then assert their Tankers died in every fight in less than half the time any Tanker would with no defenses did in all other players' tests, and when told how to slot effectively insisted that they shouldn't have to slot like that... Well, if you saw them post the same basic assertion again and again and again would you pretend this was the first time they'd posted anything like that, or would you point out that they've been doing it for a long time, and have been demonstrably wrong all the previous times?|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Well, personal attacks and we're not even off the first page. And I don't even KNOW this guy. Welcome to the bandwagon, I guess. Before you go off, consider that the Devs HAVE addressed many of the things I've brought up (and have been vigorously flamed for discussing).
Yep, I figure I'm not in the majority here, and as I say, there's a lot to like in this. However, of all the issues with endurance I see, this doesn't really address many of them. Just my opinion, of course. |
Most of us would do the latter, even though of course the person in question would see it as a personal attack.
The simple fact is that you have almost no useful understanding of the game's mechanics and balance. You have demonstrated time and time again that you don't care to know either, you just want to build a particular type of character and the actual game's balance mechanics and design goals be damned, you'll keep insisting the game should be changed to accommodate your desires regardless of whether it's compatible or balanced with the rest of the game's mechanics.
Whenever anyone points out that with a little effort it's possible to achieve what you want within the game's design anyway you simply insist you should have everything you want handed to you with no skill or effort required on your part.
Frankly, it's probably only a matter of time until someone links and/or quotes the dozen or so previous threads where it was explained, in detail, why what you want is undesirable (and unnecessary when a little knowledge about and skill with the game that's actually here is used).
Frankly, it's the fact that your past "evidence" has turned out to be absurd exaggerations or outright lies that are not possible within the actual game that has made it so that i can no longer take you at all seriously. Multiple players, including myself, have attempted to verify your past assertions and have demonstrated that they are either flat out wrong or only accomplished by actively sabotaging yourself. This is only a personal attack in the sense that you are being held accountable for what you have posted in the past and continue to post now.
If anyone else would care to do the honors and present some of that history i would be much obliged... Personally i don't have the patience or stomach for that Carnival of Wrong anymore.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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Originally Posted by Hot_Head_Mike
How the heck does Hurdle and Swift destroy concepts? A hero is athletic oh it ruins me!!
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Originally Posted by BrandX
Because a lot of people have concepts that are "I'm not a hero or villain, I'm a normal person." at which point I go "You play this genre why? You realize the game has you doing things normal people can't do anyways, right?"
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Roll a new character.
Exit creator. Tutorial/No tutorial, their choice.
Turn off xp.
Inherent Fitness? I'm neutral about it, out of the 30-40 characters I have that are high enough for it to be considered, I think maybe 6 have taken Fitness.
Overall I like the change, though I do think I'll find it odd that all of my characters have built-in Hurdle. It'll be a little weird on the ones that are magic-based ranged sorcerer types. They're not particularly athletic.
It doesn't ruin my concept, and I'd rather have the change as is than not at all, but I'd certainly prefer it if I didn't suddenly have overly jumpy wizards. 
Virtue
Angel Witch II - Chord of Souls - Storm Witch II - Princess of the Dawn - Standing Horse - Witch of Xymox
Silent Scream - Shadow Witch II - Liquid Serenade - Nebulous Dawn - Ghost Witch II -Xiberia
Angel Witch II - Chord of Souls - Storm Witch II - Princess of the Dawn - Standing Horse - Witch of Xymox
Silent Scream - Shadow Witch II - Liquid Serenade - Nebulous Dawn - Ghost Witch II -Xiberia
They have magic shoes that they cannot take off that make them run faster and jump higher than most regular people. The shoes help to amplify the wizards natural ability which is not that great into something more spectacular. There RP problem sovled.
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I think a lot of people would just keep taking Fitness.|
Originally Posted by seebs
I'm not sure of this.
I take stamina if, and only if, I tend to run out of endurance. On characters that don't run out of endurance, I'm unlikely to spend the slots. A 30% reduction in endurance consumed would likely, for most of my characters, make me not bother with stamina. Sure, it'd be occasionally useful, but it wouldn't be the difference between resting every fight and continuing through missions without stopping. |
Yeah, you hear about the few who say they don't. But how many times have you heard the compaints of END use/drain? People would take that 30% cut, and still grab Stamina, to avoid any and all end issues.
And truthfully, that's what I find a lot of people want, they don't want to deal with it at all.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Show me where I said I wanted tankmages, or that I don't want to be challenged. Oh, that's right, you CAN'T, because I never said that.|
Originally Posted by Emberly
Just as planned. /light
It's exactly the right way to go about it. And this is what they wanted to avoid. At the top end, the devs felt that end recovery, using tools available, was fine or at least close enough to fine that it needed no alterations. Low levels were another story, so they gave us free fitness. I realize this doesn't mesh with your previously stated goals of tankmages that never stop for anything and are never challenged by the game, but it is what it is. |
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Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint
you do realize that if they lower end costs that damage will follow? and no they won't raise damage. it will be lowered. again, learn to build your toons. you seem to think that there is an end problem when time and time and time and time and time and time again you have been shown that there is not. and when asked for your build you don't even bother replying or say that you don't want it ripped apart. so you do not want help. just want to flab your gums, or in this format your fingers.
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Originally Posted by Lord_Apollon
Your particular approach is complex and time consuming to implement. A quick and dirty method to achieve the same results would be to add in an endurance modifier, similar to how damage modifiers are handled. Of course as I say this, brutes everywhere scream out in pain but are quickly silences as they run out of endurance.
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Originally Posted by Schismatrix
Ultimo_, i know you can't and won't understand this, but it's not simply a personal attack. If someone kept posting that mob damage needs to be cut in half in almost every thread they posted in because all of their Tanker's defenses were usually slotted with nothing but endurance and recharge reducers and then assert their Tankers died in every fight in less than half the time any Tanker would with no defenses did in all other players' tests, and when told how to slot effectively insisted that they shouldn't have to slot like that... Well, if you saw them post the same basic assertion again and again and again would you pretend this was the first time they'd posted anything like that, or would you point out that they've been doing it for a long time, and have been demonstrably wrong all the previous times?
Most of us would do the latter, even though of course the person in question would see it as a personal attack. The simple fact is that you have almost no useful understanding of the game's mechanics and balance. You have demonstrated time and time again that you don't care to know either, you just want to build a particular type of character and the actual game's balance mechanics and design goals be damned, you'll keep insisting the game should be changed to accommodate your desires regardless of whether it's compatible or balanced with the rest of the game's mechanics. Whenever anyone points out that with a little effort it's possible to achieve what you want within the game's design anyway you simply insist you should have everything you want handed to you with no skill or effort required on your part. Frankly, it's probably only a matter of time until someone links and/or quotes the dozen or so previous threads where it was explained, in detail, why what you want is undesirable (and unnecessary when a little knowledge about and skill with the game that's actually here is used). Frankly, it's the fact that your past "evidence" has turned out to be absurd exaggerations or outright lies that are not possible within the actual game that has made it so that i can no longer take you at all seriously. Multiple players, including myself, have attempted to verify your past assertions and have demonstrated that they are either flat out wrong or only accomplished by actively sabotaging yourself. This is only a personal attack in the sense that you are being held accountable for what you have posted in the past and continue to post now. If anyone else would care to do the honors and present some of that history i would be much obliged... Personally i don't have the patience or stomach for that Carnival of Wrong anymore. |
In THIS thread, I've offered no evidence of anything, I've offered only my opinion on a new change. You're still arguing another thread. In that thread I said that the tools that are available to mitigate the impact of endurance on gameplay are insufficient in my opinion.
I don't see how questioning and attacking my integrity, my knowledge and experience and my motives can be taken as anything but a personal attack.
I'll say it again, I'm not against this change. There's lots of good that will come of it. I just think it's a bandaid that leave the real problem unfixed.
AGAIN, just my opinion.
You are one of the very few that think there is a "real problem" to begin with.
For just about everyone else, the tools in the game are just fine to handle endurance use. I had a spine/dark scrapper before IOs with acrobatics and cloak of fear that managed to do alright. And this was in the day before we knew how much endurance we were actually using.
Just because you have played the game for a long time does not mean you know anything. And just because you have worked in game design does not mean you understand every single game out there or even just this game.
I have a friend that has been around since beta and he is probably one of the worst people to have on a team. At least as far as what he contributes to finishing missions and such. He seems to dump in enhancements at random, is always out of endurance and constantly dying. However, he is entertaining and fun to talk to so most people don't mind. At least he understands that he is just having fun, and never really put any effort into making builds. He also does not blame the game or think there is a problem just because he has issues with endurance.
There were some around WWII that had the opinion that Hitler was doing great things. Just because you have an opinion does not mean that you are correct or that others should bother to listen to you. Not saying you are like Hitler, just using an extreme exampe to show that facts are more usefull than opinions. And so far you have provided no facts to back up your assesment of late game end use problems.
You may know the game, but you clearly haven't mastered the end management side.
It's NOT difficult to have Plenty of end on just about any build. Especially now with IOs and Alignment Merits.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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I agree, and thats why I didn't make a seperate thread waayy back in the day when I thought of the idea of the global endurance reduction. Too many problems. Yeah, I'd still take stamina, yeah it would take awhile to code and nobody would notice this reduction unless a giant sign was thrown at their face.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
I think a lot of people would just keep taking Fitness.
Yeah, you hear about the few who say they don't. But how many times have you heard the compaints of END use/drain? People would take that 30% cut, and still grab Stamina, to avoid any and all end issues. And truthfully, that's what I find a lot of people want, they don't want to deal with it at all. |
I dislike Endurance honestly. It's a very simplistic stat that is already very easy to navigate around (for the majority of powerset combinations.. poor Stone/Dark Brutes). It's not a bad stat, infact it's kinda necessary to stop people from spamming the high-end moves, because we All know that -recharge is rediculously easy to get now-a-days. Or atleast too easy to stack.
With both the -recharge and endurance system in place, the game was quite balanced around keeping high powered moved from being used too often. That has naturally changed with IOsets now fixing 1 or even both problems rather easily.
I could write a report about how IOsets have caused a power creep in the sense that now High-powered situational moves are now the normal moves of choice (see Perma-Phantom Army and speed Foot Stomping).
TL: DR
Yes.
Whining about everything since 2006.
Ammo switching for Dual Pistols was my idea:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=135484
Wow, you actually invoked Godwin's Law? Not much I can say to that.
I may indeed be one of a minority that has a problem with the current endurance mechanic. However, many years of many people complaining about it suggests otherwise.
Either way, the tools you mention don't make things very much better.
I can and do play without running out of endurance. That's not the problem. The problem is that I spend far more time and energy trying to avoid running out of endurance than I do actually ejoying the game by fighting the enemy. Worse, different characters have more and less trouble, depending on the AT and power choices. Anyone can take drastic measures to reduce endurance use, but the problem is that doing so undermines the enjoyment of the game, at least for me, and likely for others.
It's funny how not one of my characters have problems with endurance. Maybe it's because I bother with the 5-10 minutes of effort to plan their builds before playing so that I don't have to spend 5 mins every mission resting. Oh wait, but that's not possible, because resting 5 minutes every mission is so much more fun than planning for 10 minutes.
- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
My Katana/Inv Guide
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein
I just like the fact that due to Inherent Fitness, I will have three extra powers to put into my build. This brings up tons of new possibilities for all my alts. Even if they'll only have base slots, it's still something. 
All my Brutes will probably take Taunt now, for example, haha.
Oh, and some powers which can be taken earlier due to the three (Swift/Hurdle, Health, Stamina) not taking up three of the early powers, that will be great!
My only real complaint (other than no extra slots, but eh, I'll manage) is that it wasn't done earlier. XD
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"Keep living the dream, and never let any jerk tell you what to do."
-- High-Roller
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First, powers are indeed balanced for endurance use. For damage dealing powers the rate is iirc 5.2x the damage scalar of the power. |
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Well, I'm back after another hiatus, and I return to find that the Fitness pool is going to be made inherent.
Now, I'm sure my usual detractors will think me delighted with this, but I'm afraid I'm not. I'll explain why. As I've said elsewhere, Endurance management is far too onerous. It undermines the enjoyment of the game. It's most noticeable at lower level, prior to Stamina, but it doesn't exist ONLY there. Part of the reason for this is that the ATs and Power Sets are not balanced for endurance use. As an example, consider the Defender and Blaster power sets for Energy Blast. The Defender version does less damage, but uses the same endurance. Certain ATs suffer more than others for this (eg. Tankers and Defenders). |
Defenders will do less damage yet use the same endurance, because endurance and endurance cost work together to act as a limit to the volume or amount of effect that can be used before needing to stop and take a break.
This is similar to the idea of recharge, which is a limit to the frequency of use that a power has.
It is an added nuance to the game intended to be either a limiter or an advantage for a powerset. One powerset might be able to do more damage with its attack, but that attack can only be used a specific number of times before needing to stop, and only at a given frequency. Due to having a multitude of attacks, these attacks can be chained together one after another. This would be a way to get around effect per action limits if you only had recharge to worry about, as you would simply fill the frequency gap with a different action that accomplishes the same goal. This doesn't become an issue, though, because we also have endurance. You are still limited to the ammout of effect available consecutively, allowing a standardization that creates the opportunity for balance. Customization in the form of enhancements allow these expected values to be modified slightly allowing for a player to compensate for playstyle, weaknesses or both.
An energy blast defender will be able to perform the same number of actions as and equitably built nrg/ blaster. In order to keep the ATs unique and prevent one AT from being truly better than another, when it should simply offer a different playstyle, each AT is given modifiers that changes the potency of the various effects of an action.
In the energy blast example, a blaster is better at dealing damage with it's ammount of actions due to a higher damage modifier, whereas a defender has better secondary effects with it's number of actions, due to the higher buff/debuff modifiers. While you may not like which AT is better at what, this is cross AT balance, each has their own strengths and weaknesses relevent to the number and frequency of actions available. With customization available that can focus on either the specific effects themselves, allowing for more of the effect in the same number of action; or a larger number of actions with the same value of effects.
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Originally Posted by Ultimo_
However, their method of dealing with the problem is far from ideal.
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Originally Posted by Ultimo_
First, it does nothing for characters that have Stamina anyway. That is, higher level characters that suffer endurance issues despite Stamina will see no difference in their play.
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Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Second, it does nothing to address the disparity between ATs and Power Sets.
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Originally Posted by Ultimo_
All this does is help lower level characters with endurance issues. As I say, it's a laudable goal, but it's not the right way to go about it. What they should have done, and it would be a half measure as well, in my estimation, is simply raise the global recovery rate. That is, EVERYONE would recover endurance faster. Those with Stamina at L20 would recover it EVEN FASTER than that, perhaps to the point of not needing to worry about endurance unless faced with sappers or very long fights.
It hasn't gone live yet, but I hope they'll reconsider this. |
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Originally Posted by Ultimo_
I dont' see why anything else would need to be modified. The goal is to make endurance management more balanced and less cumbersome and invasive. In a sense, you're right, though. I don't expect this to change, so I suppose I'm really just "flabbing" my gums.
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5.2x the damage scale, what do you think would happen to powerset balance, if one power (stamina + whatever innate recovery boost you said you thought would be better) made it so that the game gets to the point where players are: "not needing to worry about endurance" without modifying the potency of effects? Effects such as damage.
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Originally Posted by Ultimo_
In THIS thread, I've offered no evidence of anything, I've offered only my opinion on a new change. You're still arguing another thread. In that thread I said that the tools that are available to mitigate the impact of endurance on gameplay are insufficient in my opinion.
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First you have referenced a change that will be made, and attempted to link it to an issue you proposed where it is not relevent to do so. As improving the resources available to low level characters is not relevent to a supposed imbalance between powers and ATs.
Then made a claim that the issue you proposed is one that is in need of attention.
Next denounced the change, hoping for it to be reconsidered, on the basis that it did not properly address your proposed issue, despite the fact the change isn't intended to address the issue.
Then finally proposed a different change to address the issue you proposed, to be used instead of the upcoming change, with the claim that it better addresses the issue.
Again without regard to the upcoming change not being intended to address your proposed issue.
Also without evidence backing the claim that the proposed change is better than the upcoming one, or evidence that the issue you proposed even needs addressing.
Murphys Military Law
#23. Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
#46. If you can't remember, the Claymore is pointed towards you.
#54. Killing for peace is like screwing for virginity.
I'm very happy with Inherent Fitness, mostly because of the following two things:
1) I no longer have to choose between Swift and Hurdle. Most of the time I'd pick Hurdle because SJ is my favourite travel. CJ + Hurdle is also great for combat maneuvering. Bad thing is that without Swift trying to catch runners was a bit annoying. Now I will have both!
2) My builds will get some variety. Currently most of my builds have Fitness/Speed/Travel/Utility as pools, where Travel is either Flying or Leaping and Utility is either Fighting, Leadership or nothing, depending on how many power slots I have available. Now I can add Concealment, Teleportation or Medicine to many builds and also take concept powers I currently wouldn't pick because of my habit of min/max first, concept later.
- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
My Katana/Inv Guide
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein
I'm hoping Ultimo doesn't have self rez in his build or any awakens at hand, because if he does, William's one-hit-kill won't stop this madness 
- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
My Katana/Inv Guide
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein
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I was preparing to write a response to your well considered post (thanks for that), but I'm falling asleep on my keyboard. I promise to review and respond tomorrow as time permits.
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Originally Posted by William_Valence
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Just because people complain about something does not mean it needs to be fixed. My sister-in-law for example complains that she never has enough money. She does not have a job, she collects money from the state for "disability" because she was able to convince a doctor she is bi-polar. It did take her 3 tries with 3 different doctors until she finally figured out the answers to the questions the Dr was looking for to make the diagnosis. She has not made any effort in the last 6 years to even apply for a job because she claims it gives her a panic attack. All she should get is enough to keep her from starving and a enough to keep a roof over her head. Yet she still complains about never having enough money. To me (and hopefully the majority of others), that is not a problem that needs to be fixed by others just because she is complaining about it.|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Wow, you actually invoked Godwin's Law? Not much I can say to that.
I may indeed be one of a minority that has a problem with the current endurance mechanic. However, many years of many people complaining about it suggests otherwise. Either way, the tools you mention don't make things very much better. I can and do play without running out of endurance. That's not the problem. The problem is that I spend far more time and energy trying to avoid running out of endurance than I do actually ejoying the game by fighting the enemy. Worse, different characters have more and less trouble, depending on the AT and power choices. Anyone can take drastic measures to reduce endurance use, but the problem is that doing so undermines the enjoyment of the game, at least for me, and likely for others. |
You have still made no attempt to say what the issue is other than vague complaints about end use. What specific set has a problem? What AT is underperforming due to excessive endurance use?
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What they should have done, and it would be a half measure as well, in my estimation, is simply raise the global recovery rate. That is, EVERYONE would recover endurance faster. Those with Stamina at L20 would recover it EVEN FASTER than that, perhaps to the point of not needing to worry about endurance unless faced with sappers or very long fights.