Inherent Fitness
By
Afterimage,
Posted on: 2010-10-29 23:47 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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I often wish the overarching game philosophy of the early developers had been "players should feel SUPER", "players should have FUN" and "challenging is good, frustrating is bad." Early COH was frustrating, not challenging. Just consider:|
Originally Posted by Skyster
Hopefully it will help new toons feel more "super", (since this is a super hero game), and less like an 80 year old granmaw. I remember back in '04 when a lot of people found out you had to get to 14 just to fly, they just quit. Or were rooted every time you attack and therefore can't "run-n-gun". They went out and got clobbered by some Hellion slammers and said "screw this." It doesn't feel very super for a good chunk of the gameplay. If the devs can find a way for us to feel more super at low levels, without being OP, I say go for it. It might help new players want to stay.
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-Huge zones... with no travel powers.
-A custom skill system... with few options to adjust your build if you make poor or uninformed choices (which all new players WILL do).
-Awesome powers... with no endurance to run them OR few super powers... with Stamina.
What would have been the cost to giving players an inherent travel power of their choice at a low level? Would a free TRAVEL power have destroyed game balance or simply allowed players to have more fun and feel more super?
What would have been the cost to allowing players to adjust their builds every few days at low levels or once every few weeks at high levels? Would allowing players to fix broken builds have destroyed game balance, or allowed frustrated players to enjoy the game?
Thankfully the inherent fitness change will address one of these issues. Ninja Run and smaller zones in Praetoria tells me the devs are aware of the travel issue, although City Traveler should have been a game wide change and not limited to 5 year vets.
Still, I believe the developers are on the right track. Better 6 years late than never.
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You have to respec to get them if you have Fitness already|
Originally Posted by Skyster
As far as I know, they still haven't said exactly how this will be implemented, so there's no need to argue about it.
It sounds nice, but I just hope it's not another situation where they hand us a lemon, and then we're expected to make lemonade. It could so easily be a universal nerf. We just don't know yet. |
They are enhanceable and you can add slots to them (just like now)
They work in Kheldian forms (this is a buff)
They remain auto powers
Clarified overview description
I19 Overview Page (which has been updated to reflect Castle's clarifications)
The only thing I can't find is an explicit statement that they have the same buff percentages as the ones now on live. Not that I think they would have said all that they have said so far without mentioning an explicit downgrade in the powers, but I thought I'd seen that posted and wanted to include it to squash as much of that particular kind of pessimism as I could.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Do you actually have City Traveler? Because the power it grants is not very useful. I maybe use it once a day I play. It has a two hour recharge time that's not affected by global recharge buffs (and obviously can't be slotted). Trust me, it doesn't do much for you.
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Originally Posted by Intrepic
Ninja Run and smaller zones in Praetoria tells me the devs are aware of the travel issue, although City Traveler should have been a game wide change and not limited to 5 year vets.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
I'm thinking he means the 60 month vet reward (City Traveler) which lets you pick a travel power at level 6 without prequisites.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
Do you actually have City Traveler? Because the power it grants is not very useful. I maybe use it once a day I play. It has a two hour recharge time that's not affected by global recharge buffs (and obviously can't be slotted). Trust me, it doesn't do much for you.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by DSorrow
I'm thinking he means the 60 month vet reward (City Traveler) which lets you pick a travel power at level 6 without prequisites.
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Heh. it's NICE to have. But it isn't ALL that. I find myself taking most of the preregs in my builds anyways, cause, hasten and combat jumping are nice to have, hover, can be useful and recall friend is just convient. As for getting travel powers at 6, yeah it's sweet to have superspeed or superjump at 6, but ninja run and sprint are ALMOST as good and free. (well, you have PAY for ninja run, so it's not FREE... but doesn't cost a power... >.>)
It's a really nice perk for a vet reward. But it's hardly a must have IMO.
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Ah, yeah, I was mixing it up with the booster power. Getting a travel power at level 6 is nice, but with the ability to get temp travel powers at level 1 (if you really want them), it's not that great in terms of unlocking travel. If anything, it's better for dropping a power from a tight build. Then again, I find most of the travel pools' gateway powers terribly useful, so I'd never drop them anyway.
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Originally Posted by DSorrow
I'm thinking he means the 60 month vet reward (City Traveler) which lets you pick a travel power at level 6 without prequisites.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
That system was broken because you had to have someone constantly babysit it to keep it from falling apart. That's a textbook example of a broken system. In fact I would go a step further and say that pretty much all of those 80's superhero games were pretty badly designed. Remember having to have an accounting degree for champions? Or at least one to keep from getting ****** in champions? Remember the horrid character generation in Marvel? |
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Not really. It's only as broken as the GM allows it to be. You can make the craziest overpowered stuff you can imagine in it, but if the GM says "No, I'm not going to let you do that.", that's the end of it.
It's a good system in and of itself, but there's no way you could translate it to a computer game because a computer can't tell you that some off-the-wall overpowered thing you did isn't allowed. A computer sees that it is possible and allows it, because it has no capacity to make a judgment call on things like that. The fact that a human is making the decisions of what is and isn't allowed is the balancing factor of the HERO system. Since it's impossible to translate the HERO system to a computer program, using it as an example of balance where a computer game is concerned is just asinine. |
True you can abuse pretty much any system but HERO and Champions were two of the worst for being abused.
I really really would love it if they had some check box when it goes live where it would say check this box if you just want to respec to move fitness pool to inherit. This way I would have to worry about 2 or 3 powers I would need to pick up instead of doing a full respec. I just hate the respec process with a passion.
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3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives
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Not really. All PnP systems are pretty broken numerically. The thing is, that's not really a bad knock on them. It's only a problem if they become unworkable, and Champions wasn't unworkable. What you want from a good PnP system is flexibility and reasonableness. The GM has to exercise good judgment beyond that. My only gripe with HERO is how it's often held up as an example of how "it should be" like by CoH players in the past or CO players past and present (it was my biggest gripe in CO beta that people who thought the HERO system could form the basis for that game's mechanics were basically retarded). PnP systems are never, ever, EVER good models for computer MMO combat or mechanical systems. Show me an MMO that implements a PnP system, and I guarantee you that either the MMO sucks, or the PnP game it's based on sucks, or possibly both. The requirements for both are almost incompatible.
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Originally Posted by Mack Avenger
That system was broken because you had to have someone constantly babysit it to keep it from falling apart. That's a textbook example of a broken system. In fact I would go a step further and say that pretty much all of those 80's superhero games were pretty badly designed. Remember having to have an accounting degree for champions? Or at least one to keep from getting ****** in champions? Remember the horrid character generation in Marvel?
True you can abuse pretty much any system but HERO and Champions were two of the worst for being abused. |
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Can we just compromise and say that some PnP systems were a bit more user friendly than others? |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Not really. All PnP systems are pretty broken numerically. The thing is, that's not really a bad knock on them. It's only a problem if they become unworkable, and Champions wasn't unworkable. What you want from a good PnP system is flexibility and reasonableness. The GM has to exercise good judgment beyond that. My only gripe with HERO is how it's often held up as an example of how "it should be" like by CoH players in the past or CO players past and present (it was my biggest gripe in CO beta that people who thought the HERO system could form the basis for that game's mechanics were basically retarded). PnP systems are never, ever, EVER good models for computer MMO combat or mechanical systems. Show me an MMO that implements a PnP system, and I guarantee you that either the MMO sucks, or the PnP game it's based on sucks, or possibly both. The requirements for both are almost incompatible.
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You are right, you cannot directly port and PnP game into a computer game because nearly all of them are written to require a GM of some sort, even if only to keep the world dynamic.
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Yep. In fact, the more you attempt to equip a Pen-and-Paper game with a more accurate mathematical system which accounts for better resolution of events, the more complex the system gets, to the point that the game becomes very "un-fun", due to "chart-look-ups" for every event. Players lose focus on the "imaginary" because they get lost in the numbers. I know this because some friends and I in high school set out to create a better system and get it published. Everything went very well until we began "testing" the system with some of our RPG friends. Massive failure due to an "overly-complex" melee system.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Not really. All PnP systems are pretty broken numerically. The thing is, that's not really a bad knock on them. It's only a problem if they become unworkable, and Champions wasn't unworkable. What you want from a good PnP system is flexibility and reasonableness. The GM has to exercise good judgment beyond that. My only gripe with HERO is how it's often held up as an example of how "it should be" like by CoH players in the past or CO players past and present (it was my biggest gripe in CO beta that people who thought the HERO system could form the basis for that game's mechanics were basically retarded). PnP systems are never, ever, EVER good models for computer MMO combat or mechanical systems. Show me an MMO that implements a PnP system, and I guarantee you that either the MMO sucks, or the PnP game it's based on sucks, or possibly both. The requirements for both are almost incompatible.
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For me, the advent of computer RPGs was everything we had wished for, because the computer becomes the "slave" to the details. IT gets to look up the charts and determine the results for us. Now if we can just get the computer to create/generate interactive dialog for npcs based on in-game actions. It would be very interesting to be able to walk into a bar, have a casual conversation with a computer controlled character and get a "tip" for a mission. I am not talking "chat bubbles" here.
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HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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I happen to LIKE the HERO system, but I may be biased because my first couple experiences with it were with some REALLY good GMs. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Not really. All PnP systems are pretty broken numerically. The thing is, that's not really a bad knock on them. It's only a problem if they become unworkable, and Champions wasn't unworkable. What you want from a good PnP system is flexibility and reasonableness. The GM has to exercise good judgment beyond that. My only gripe with HERO is how it's often held up as an example of how "it should be" like by CoH players in the past or CO players past and present (it was my biggest gripe in CO beta that people who thought the HERO system could form the basis for that game's mechanics were basically retarded). PnP systems are never, ever, EVER good models for computer MMO combat or mechanical systems. Show me an MMO that implements a PnP system, and I guarantee you that either the MMO sucks, or the PnP game it's based on sucks, or possibly both. The requirements for both are almost incompatible.
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They let you do just about anything you could dream up (within reason), but they kept a tight rein on how powerful they'd let your character become. And they simplified the combat system so you didn't have to roll 3,000 dice to determine the result of firing a pistol one time. You just rolled to hit, and they did the rest.
I agree that it would be a horrible way to design an MMO, because a computer lacks the flexibility a good GM needs to make the game fun while keeping it reasonably balanced. I haven't made any of my old Champions characters here, just because they would be impossible to recreate, and the names were taken anyway.
I repeat that citing the HERO system as something that is balanced in regards to superhero gaming is sheer folly. The GM balanced the game, the system itself was balanced about as well as you can balance a Chevy Silverado on a knitting needle.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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My theory is that it revolves around praetoria. They introduce this great new area that only includes the levels people power through because they are so unpleasant. With inherent fitness, you can stop and smell the roses in praetoria.
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Originally Posted by Biospark
What they have not revealed (as far as I know) is WHY this is being done. Most people (myself included) have speculated that it is being done to assist newer players in getting into and staying in the game after their initial experience. The first 20 levels can be quite a turn-off depending on how quickly you learn the ropes and which AT/Combination you choose.
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A lot of builds without access to SO's pre-20 struggle with end, as well because they lack the slots to invest end reducers in key powers. In the distant past you had to make a choice of slotting accuracy or end reducers pre 20 for attacks, as an example, and either choice wasn't ideal, because there was drawbacks. Now, the choice is a little easier, in that, you can invest in end reducers, but it still causes end issues to an extent.|
Originally Posted by Biospark
Actually, I have seen a couple places where they have described exactly how it will work.
From a Q&A session I believe (sorry that I cannot link it for you). What they have not revealed (as far as I know) is WHY this is being done. Most people (myself included) have speculated that it is being done to assist newer players in getting into and staying in the game after their initial experience. The first 20 levels can be quite a turn-off depending on how quickly you learn the ropes and which AT/Combination you choose. |
I agree that this change is geared more for the pre 20 characters/avatars, but think of it as a bonus for everyone else to pick up more powers late in the leveling process to 50.
So we'll get all 4 abilities at level 2? Now we're gettin somewhere. Now if we just knew if the abilities come with default slots, like they do now, or if they'll be "blank", like ninja run, for those who don't want 'em.
I can understand if someone says, "But newcomers will be missing out on part of the CoH experience." I remember stone/stone tankers at low levels. I was playing in '04, when the game had been out a couple weeks, just didn't join the forums til about a year later. But really, the overpriced little TO's don't do that much, and low lvl tankers / scrappers, etc, will still easily go thru that blue bar.
I just wish we had a type of "backwards respec", where it starts at 50 or whatever lvl you are, and you click back, to get down to the level you wish to change. That way you don't end up with a million enhancements everywhere. A "Backspec".
Also I wish there was some kind of "non-aggro" status on your character while respeccing.
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They WILL have the default slot at level 2, just like Sprint, Rest and Brawl. And you can add slots to them just as you could before starting at level 3. They have not mentioned that the values will remain the same, but I strongly suspect that they will be the same level of recovery/regen (25%/40%)
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Originally Posted by Skyster
So we'll get all 4 abilities at level 2? Now we're gettin somewhere. Now if we just knew if the abilities come with default slots, like they do now, or if they'll be "blank", like ninja run, for those who don't want 'em.
I can understand if someone says, "But newcomers will be missing out on part of the CoH experience." I remember stone/stone tankers at low levels. I was playing in '04, when the game had been out a couple weeks, just didn't join the forums til about a year later. But really, the overpriced little TO's don't do that much, and low lvl tankers / scrappers, etc, will still easily go thru that blue bar. I just wish we had a type of "backwards respec", where it starts at 50 or whatever lvl you are, and you click back, to get down to the level you wish to change. That way you don't end up with a million enhancements everywhere. A "Backspec". Also I wish there was some kind of "non-aggro" status on your character while respeccing. |
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
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This is my theory as well.|
Originally Posted by rsclark
My theory is that it revolves around praetoria. They introduce this great new area that only includes the levels people power through because they are so unpleasant. With inherent fitness, you can stop and smell the roses in praetoria.
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However I do think they missed the boat in a major way by not introducing the change with i18. It's not like the pre-20 Endurance Grind wasn't known about until Praetoria was introduced.
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Actually, it isn't a bad move at all. |
Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
This is my theory as well.
However I do think they missed the boat in a major way by not introducing the change with i18. It's not like the pre-20 Endurance Grind wasn't known about until Praetoria was introduced. |
Waiting an issue to do this shows the new players that started with GR that the devs do things to improve the game for them on a regular basis.
Had they done it at the same time GR was released, the new players would be unaware of the QoL changes the devs do for us, and might not be inclined to stick around if there is something they don't like about the game. If they see that the devs do stuff like this, they may just voice their complaint and stick with it, rather than assume it will never be addressed and leave for something else.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
It's possible that they had just too many things on their plate (Graphical Updates, Powersets, Incarnates, Tip Missions, Market Merger, etc...) and Inherent Fitness was put on the hold shelf early on when they knew it would delay release even further.
Just a guess though.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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I think that Castle told Bill in a PM that they would have the same values, but I can't swear to that.
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Originally Posted by Biospark
They WILL have the default slot at level 2, just like Sprint, Rest and Brawl. And you can add slots to them just as you could before starting at level 3. They have not mentioned that the values will remain the same, but I strongly suspect that they will be the same level of recovery/regen (25%/40%)
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I noticed that Ultimo is no longer posting after a certain few posters soundly gave his idea that the HERO system would work in this game, or ANY mmo for that matter, a good whacking.
I find it funny that when people like Arcanville and ClawsandEffect come in with logic these type of threads usually DIE.
Interesting . . .
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Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
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That above is all.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
I repeat that citing the HERO system as something that is balanced in regards to superhero gaming is sheer folly. The GM balanced the game, the system itself was balanced about as well as you can balance a Chevy Silverado on a knitting needle. |
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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...Must we keep this going? He dropped it, 2 pages back. The bottom of that post, and I'm pretty sure this was before the HERO system was even brought up, and by someone else. |
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
I noticed that Ultimo is no longer posting after a certain few posters soundly gave his idea that the HERO system would work in this game, or ANY mmo for that matter, a good whacking.
I find it funny that when people like Arcanville and ClawsandEffect come in with logic these type of threads usually DIE. Interesting . . . |
Though, one thing you said is valid... it's time this thread died.
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I am a blaster first, and an alt-oholic second.
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There was no point in arguing. I have my opinion, they have theirs.|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
I noticed that Ultimo is no longer posting after a certain few posters soundly gave his idea that the HERO system would work in this game, or ANY mmo for that matter, a good whacking.
I find it funny that when people like Arcanville and ClawsandEffect come in with logic these type of threads usually DIE. Interesting . . . |
What mystique I must have that you have to imply some kind of e-smackdown when I choose not to argue a pointless argument.
It's a good system in and of itself, but there's no way you could translate it to a computer game because a computer can't tell you that some off-the-wall overpowered thing you did isn't allowed. A computer sees that it is possible and allows it, because it has no capacity to make a judgment call on things like that.
The fact that a human is making the decisions of what is and isn't allowed is the balancing factor of the HERO system. Since it's impossible to translate the HERO system to a computer program, using it as an example of balance where a computer game is concerned is just asinine.
And yes a good GM is very important. I was KNOWN in my circle as the one who wouldnt break but could bend the heck out of a rule. I always found it funny the stuff some GM's would overlook.
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If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-