If You Were Castle How would you change Stalkers?

Compared to 8 Corruptors? 8 Defenders? 8 Controllers? 8 MM? 8 Dominators?

8 brutes and tankers don't stack too well but everything else does.

Only one effect of Bruising per target. Though, 8 tankers on one target means the target is more likely to stay bruised (if they're using the tier 1 attack of course).

Unless, I'm remembering how Bruising works wrong.

I really don't see the need for more debuff or team buff with Stalkers. It makes for a different look I guess, but the majority of people look for damage really, when it comes to melee in my experience.

Well....adding a debuff to AS would, in return, increase the Stalker's "own" damage output...as well as add some "team-friendly" viability by increasing your teammates damage outputs on your selected target. So in my opinion, it would be sorta two birds with one stone: increased damage output on a single target for Stalkers as-well-as adding team-friendly-viability/solutions.


Personally, I'm really liking the idea of AS causing a decent single target debuff now, similar to what Dechs had suggested earlier. I just really see it fitting the AT now in both theme and power advantage against a single meaty target. I really like how it could help to make us slightly more viable in a team setting as well.

If you believe the game is still balanced around IOs, then think about your list. There's a trade off for force multiplying ATs. Stalkers don't currently fall into that category.

You are correct, Bruise only applies once at a time on a target.

I believe this is because the Bruising effect works similar to Demoralize. You use an attack that grants the foe a temporary power. This temporary power applies a debuff at the enemy's level (therefore is always -20% resist rather than being affected by enemy level) and since enemies are limited to only 1 instance of a power, the effect doesn't stack.

Similarly, Demoralize doesn't stack (well, the -ToHit doesn't but the fear, I believe does).

As for the ST debuff to AS, I ask:

What will that help with? Does this 'solve' anything? Do we even know what issue Stalkers really have? Or are we just guessing now?

Oy, the main hyperbole is how you reacted to this. I hardly made an emotional or unfounded statement to be responded to like this. In practical terms, 30 feet is quite close. The shortest range blasts, the "heavy" blasts from blast sets are 40 feet (as well as some AOEs), and Ranged users complain about how close that is: people often prefer to hang back farther unless they're on a melee character.

It's easy for Stalkers to move about about and get out of range of 30 feet from their teammates, even when they are fighting the same mob. Stalkers should receive their buff in those situations, and not have to wonder how far they're getting away from their teammates.

And sheesh, it's not like I was asking for much, here. I asked to extend the range on it so that a Stalker will usually get the buff that they're supposed to on a team. With 30 feet, you can be in the same room or hallway as your teammates and not get this critical hit buff. 60-90 feet wouldn't make it so you could run off and do a mission on your own with the buff operative, but would make sure that this buff is working when you are on a team and working with them.

I said this stuff in reply to people wanting the base damage of Stalkers to be increased. If Stalkers have the same base damage or higher of Scrappers (with Hide, etc., on top of that), I'm not sure that the slightly higher HP and other base numbers of Scrappers would make them better/competitive with Stalkers. Especially if the critical hit rate boost is made more easy to apply, as I was asking for. I was taking that into account there as well.

That said, I get what other people were saying about the greater AOE capability of Scrappers balancing that out, so it might not be too much to get them to the same base damage.

Still, I'd rather something like criticals or debuffs were added to Stalkers so they are different from Scrappers. Adding to their base damage seems the least interesting of the buff suggestions. *shrugs* Just my own two cents.

Yup, though you can refresh the duration. However, this can be set on multiple targets as well. It's a nice buff for Tankers while soloing and while on a team.

That's why I say "if you're making hyperbole, then just say so". Making statements like that without some kind of hint that what you're saying isn't 100% reality would make you sound less wrong.

Been playing a PB lately, and the times I change to Nova and blast things, it's *better* to close into the enemy to attack. No, not melee range but close enough that you can *see* the enemy. Why? Too many times have I tried fighting and with all the chaos, enemies get knocked around or run out of line of sight. On normal missions like in an office building or lab (heaven help you if it's a blue cave), you're practically *in* melee range because of all the obstructions, short halls, corners and stairs. There's a difference between 'wanting to hang back' and 'actually hanging back'. In the situation where your blasting allies are more than 40ft away (like 55-60ft away), most likely your stalker will have to pull part of their weight in defeats if only because they won't be able to see all the foes. In that case, you'll be contributing more anyway and the whole issue of your Stalkers not contributing enough just solved itself.

I think this is where my and other's opinion on the matter differs. I see the bonus crit chance granted by team as a *bonus* while you guys must see it as a necessary feature. The way I see it, you're getting the bonus damage/crits so...your contributions on a team have greater impact. If allies are too far to fight everything, that leave your Stalker more targets to contribute with so you don't need the crit to have your impact.

But you guys figure if you're not getting near max performance from all inherent features, then it's not working properly and therefore should be fixed.

I don't think either stance is more right, but it's something to keep in mind. The situation the crit aura works best is vs hard targets like AVs, meaty Bosses and EBs. Working as intended, IMO. That's where the Stalker needs to stand out on teams.

And I'm only asking for you to consider what you're asking for, sheesh.

I never said I was opposed to an extension in the range, but that concept plays a part too (as well as technical issues where an aura of that range can cause the game to lag).

Yes, I think it solves alot.


Sure, AoE's are what Stalkers lack (not that you said they need them, I dunno), but I do not feel that a Stalker should have AoE's. I don't think that solves the problem and I feel that it takes away some uniqueness from the AT as a whole. AoE's are not the answer imho.


A single target debuff incorporated into Assassin Strike definitely solves certain problems with the AT when both teamed and solo. It does this without changing the format and playstyle for which the AT was created--which for all good intent and purpose is as a Single Target Eliminator. It would vastly increase a Stalkers ability to allow himself as well as his teammates to deal much greater damage against a single hard target. Thus better fulfilling the role for which they were centered around.


Would taking another Corruptor over a Stalker (or filling up a team of 8 Corruptors/Defenders/Controllers) be more benificial to an "overall" teams outlook and pace through missions, even after the debuff change to AS? Sure, most definitely, but the Stalker wouldn't be alone there. In that situation, there really aren't ANY melee's that would be better for a team like that than simply adding another damage/buffer to the mix. That's just the way the cookie crumbles in this game, however, the change to AS would make a Stalker a much more viable team member on your average pick-up group of players. Which is what 90% of us end up playing with on a more regular basis outside of a few SG AV/TF runs.


The reason the debuff in AS started sounding very good to me is it got me to thinking of when and where Stalkers truely begin to start losing their potential and overall viability. After some thought, I came to a conclusion as to "roughly" where Stalkers started to lose their viability to a team. I feel that the MOST balanced and "team-valuable" time in a Stalkers' career is between the levels of 8 to 22. Why? For several reasons:


First off, Boss HP is still low enough between those levels (and for a few levels after even) that a Stalker can remove a Boss from a fight for a low-level group in rather short order when compared to his counterparts of equal level. In the lower levels, even a simple pesky Lt. can be a hardship to your average pick-up group. The Stalker shines at these levels because he can quickly remove that Lt completely and with EASE before it even has a chance to cause trouble. In the later levels, this ability quickly dissapears as teams start running higher difficulty levels and boss HP takes a sharp spike upwards. Teams generally have less and less problems with Lt's later and if anything only worry about Bosses/EBs/AVs. Well, in later levels the Stalker can just barely remove even an LT with one BU+AS, let alone quickly remove a boss for the team, and that lone Lt wouldn't have been much trouble for the team in the first place. This is where teams start to notice the lack of a Stalker's overall contribution to them.


Second, in the low levels, between 10 and 22, Scrappers and Brutes still haven't accessed all of their defensive and offensive potential. They generally have ONE or the OTHER of what they need to be monsters, but not both: they either have solid defenses and can survive a decent amount of damage and aggro, but are lacking in damage --or-- they can dish out a decent amount of damage but cannot handle too much damage or aggro. Without both attributes, they cannot reach the same strides in damage that are needed to quickly and easily dispose of bosses and hard LT's for an average team, or without alot of buff support. Thanks to this, a Stalker can shine. Why? Because he HAS the ability and damage edge over other AT's of his equal level to quickly and easily remove a boss or hard target from the battlefield, thus saving his team alot of time and problems. In later levels, primarily after SO's and access to better attacks and defenses, this edge goes away for the Stalker, since Brutes and Scrappers have full access to BOTH sides of what they need: damage and survivability. They can now run amok killing things left and right with impunity and little worry of dying. Meanwhile a Stalkers performance is only steadily getting worse in comparison.


Thirdly, in the low levels of 10 to 22 even Blasters, the damage cannons, simply cannot sustain a decent enough damage chain in order to be as superior in damage as they could be against hard targets. This is due to low level endurance issues, recharge rates, lack of Hasten, lack of good IO's, lack of sustained damage chains, and even lack of protection such as +res shields and KB protection. Lack of mobility can also keep them from kitting away from danger as efficiently as they can in later game. This deficiency helps the Stalker stand out at these levels as well, since in this area, they STILL hold more fast burst damage and killing potential against a "single target" than any other AT of equal level. And in most cases they can easily and effectively deliver that damage to thier target without risking too much harm. As before, however, this advantage fades in later levels as Blasters gain access to better endurance management, damage, sustainable attack chains, movement, and defenses. Due to a massive increase in Boss HP and resistances in later levels, removing them "effectively" is better done through sustainable attack chains. Our ability to "burst" them to death within a couple of hits becomes alot harder and practically impossible, especially against real threats such as EB's and up.


Fourthly, support toons do not have all of the buffs necessary to turn a Brute, Scrapper, or Blaster into a "damage-tanking-god-of-pure-destruction". Furthermore, they simply do not have the endurance management in the low levels to even support healing an entire team alone. As before, in the low levels, this is what helps the Stalker stand out. Since he is able to quickly remove tough targets from the battlefield with relative ease, he doesn't usually find himself taking unusual amounts of damage. Removing those hard targets as quickly as he does, in turn, saves the team from ALOT of damage early on, thus reducing the amount of healing/buffing/debuffing support that buffers must do. In later levels, this advantage (just as all the others) fades away as Buffers gain access to ALL of thier powers, as well as thier strongest buffs. They also gain access to much better endurance management and refresh rates on powers, so keeping a whole team green and buffed up isn't too difficult. So once that Brute/Scrapper/Blaster recieves those massive buffs/heals, their damage and ability goes through the roof, leaving Stalkers far behind.


So, a pattern that I see happening over and over here is this: at some point between lvl 22-30 a Stalker loses almost all credible viability on a team. This is due to every other AT experiencing a sharp increase in both damage and survivability or buffs. Meanwhile, the Stalker only experiences continuing decreases in damage performance due to increased mob levels, boss HP's, and resistances while only noticing minor increases in defenses/survivability outside of heavy IO investment.


At SOME point, they were useful. I know that between lvl's 8-22 I am more than happy to invite about 1 to 2 Stalkers along for Boss/Lt's elimination, and for the very reasons I listed above. No, I don't want more Brutes, and at those levels I definitely don't want a Scrapper for that role....I want a Stalker. Because at those levels, they fill that role and accomplish that task very well. But where does that go later? Thanks to the vast and various reasons I described above, it vanishes.


This is why I feel that if the Stalker role as "Single Target Eliminator" could be made better and last throughout the AT's entire career, they would become (and stay) a more vital and viable asset on the average team setting. Furthermore, if they added a "team friendly" buff/debuff, this would only help to make them even more useful to teams.


This is why I do support and suggest a hefty single target debuff being added to a successful Assassin Strike. Because it would allow the Stalker to continue to be the "Single Target Eliminator" that he was in the lower levels. This would keep the Stalker's damage on his selected target high, and allow him to remove that threat quickly, even in later levels. For his team, just like in the lower levels, this could be an invaluable asset, especially against certain boss class spawns and EB's. On top of allowing the Stalker to sustain his own damage output on a single target, his debuff would affect the entire teams' damage output against that target as well. This means that more than just his own damage output, the Stalker is bringing something to his team.


Sure, we all realize that in much later levels even average bosses are hardly a threat, but they can be a speed-bump and slow a team down compared to just smashing through basic minions and Lt's. If a Stalker was able to remove a purple Boss within 2-3 attacks, then there isn't even a speed-bump to slow your team down anymore. Mission accomplished. And when you get to that EB/AV with your team, and a Stalker is able to apply his hefty debuff to that single hard target, thus increasing the damage output and killing speed of the entire team....you've accomplished your "team-viability/contribution" factor again as well. That debuff/damage potential to hard targets could become invaluable on teams and any team would be foolish to pass up such a hard hitting class who can also apply such a hefty and effective debuff to an EB/AV.


Anyways, those are, of course, my own personal feelings on it. I'm sure other have their own. I just feel as though a change like this would allow the AT to keep its uniqueness and play relatively the same as now, but increase its overall performance at it's role and in team settings.

I guess you meant to say in your first sentence that 'AoEs are not what Stalkers lack' and I agree to a point.

However, that AoEs aren't the answer is too conclusive of a statement. If Stalkers *did* have their AoEs just like Scraps, I doubt many would brush them aside so swiftly because they are disillusioned by the orange number showers. That the Stalker gets to crit with those AoEs more and can control their other crits would keep them in the running.

Would that be the answer? Maybe, because one of Stalker's problems is perception and that would definitely fix most of that. But that's not going to happen. The devs aren't going to shoehorn that attack back into the sets, it's just too late for that...


The only problem I see is...that such a change does *not* solve their teamed or solo (what proplems did Stalkers have solo?) issues. Not that a -regen debuff on AS would be bad, but ultimately it's self-defeating in the majority of the situations AS is ever used. If a foe doesn't have time (or the chance at all) to regen HP, then -regen doesn't do squat. The only situation where it would help is vs AVs, GMs and certain EBs yet those are very rare (you're lucky to see 1 every few missions). So we'll give Stalkers an effect that weakens an enemy defensively yet stick it on an attack that may or will kill the target outright? How does that solve anything but giving the AT some novelty trophy they can stroke everytime a Scrap/Brute talks down to them? And this argument isn't even coming from me, it's pretty similar to what Angry_Citizen countered with when such an addition was suggested.

And I'd rather not get into a discussion about how AS doesn't kill things fast in the upper levels. It's moot. I've read too many posts complaining about not having hard targets to AS in that range so let's just come to a middle ground and say 'sometimes there's bosses around and sometimes they vanish quickly'.


I won't comment on AT viability post a certain level, as I honestly don't believe it. I'm still invited to teams and TF/SFs, I still do zone events, I still solo arcs even with EBs. Really, it's all just blowing smoke in the grande scheme as every AT has their benefits and downfalls.

I'm not shooting down anyone's opinion, mind you. I'm just doing some critical thinking and trying to spark more discussion on the subject.

But as I read more and more, I'm more convinced none of us are sure what we want. I've gone from thinking Stalkers should be a debuff/melee hybrid, to thinking we're fine, to thinking we could use more tools. I've read others who think Stalkers should be the greatest damage melee, or that we should be on par with Scrappers to simply being tougher. Who's to say which is right?

But as I write this, and if I were Castle, I'd first ask myself what is a Stalker in this game and what should burst damage accomplish.

I'm not really sure, but now that I think about it, the reason I like Stalkers is because they have control. The other melees aren't in control of their own power but we are. I would like nothing more than for the AT to have *even more* control. I don't know how, but I *would* enjoy being able to 'flip a switch' and add a -regen debuff onto a crit (perhaps with a cost). And later, 'flip a different switch' and be able to chain 2-3 extra crits for a price. Or also maybe push a button and dump all my endurance into one omega-AS.

I'd even extend it to Blasters, as I think they have a semblance of control of their damage too (it's just always high and they can pop off damage bonuses and unleash big AoEs). Having a *real* 'Sniper Shot' that can off a target, conserving part of their endurance after a nuke for a lesser (but still devastating) effect, etc. Plain and simple, I just think burst damage should have more control and the burst damage ATs (Blaster and Stalker) should be the guys to get it.

It's 106 miles to Grandville, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark and we're wearing faceless helmets

... Hit it ...

Funny I hate losing aggro on my Stalker like that if I team with squishies. I even try not to use Placate that much because I want the aggro to stay on me if I can handle it. :P

Am I the only one who is not bothered by our less HP? I really don't think I attract that much aggro to being with. I mean we have less AoE and we have Hide and Placate already to lose aggro.

The low HP cap makes /Regen a very tough set to use.

The way I see it is this. Dev already added one aoe attack in most patron and epic sets have aoe too (if they can fix criticals).

The existing sets like MA and EM will not get modified to have an aoe so asking for more aoe is pretty impossible.

This leaves ... what else can Stalker bring besides ST damage and limited AoE? DEBUFFS!!!

I've been doing a lot of AVs (ITF and other SFs) and one thing that bothers me is that as a Single Target-specialist, I don't feel my contribution to the AV fight is more meaningful than Brute/Scrapper. Brute handles all the main aggro and Scrapper at least kills non-AV faster and they get more out of damage buffs (due to higher base damage).

It would be nice if my Assassin Strike has good -regen because you don't always have Kin, Radiation or Trap (even though people ask for them). Wouldn't be nice that in the case of not having a Rad or Kin, you can bring Stalker for -regen too? I mean that would give Stalker a more meaningful role on the team.


The more I think about it, the more I think Stalker should have -regen in AS. Maybe 500%?

Why should all the support classes have -regen? (I don't think poison dart's 25% matters much lol).


If you ask me, Stalker should be the one taking down AV/Pylon fastest of all melee class.

Wait, what? I wasn't admitting to being hyperbolic at all. If you don't think 30 feet is pretty close range in this game, that's where the problem comes in to play, as that is quite close (so ignore all the annoyed tones we've been throwing at each other). Are there times where teammates are in that close? Sure. But there are plenty more times where teammates aren't that close, and it's quite easy to do. As I said in the earlier post, you can be working with your team on the same spawn and be out of range of this 30 foot power.

That's where the other disagreement comes into play. I do see it as a necessary feature. I don't know why Castle would make that adjustment to Stalker's Critical capability and not want it to work on teams. It doesn't work solo, obviously (unless pets truly do affect the ability... not sure if that has been proven definitively, though), so that's where it needs to work.

And if it doesn't work easily or consistently on a team (which I don't think it does at 30 feet), that's an issue. Otherwise, Stalkers can have a lower base damage than Stalkers, lower HP, lower mitigation, lower AOE, and even a lower critical chance (depending on the target, and it can definitely be lower on the targets that matter most). I am aware that maybe they shouldn't dial this up too far (otherwise you'll have Stalkers using the power clear across the zone or the map from their team), but asking for 60-90 feet is a good idea and would help.

Yea, that's what I feel too, and what I've suggested. I think -500% Regen (for 30 seconds) would be a perrrrrfect number for a "successful" AS on a single target.


Personally, I feel as though it should add some -res/-def on top of that -regen (30% -def/-res for 30 seconds), which is what I suggested earlier as well. A debuff like that would help out smash/lethal sets, which run in to mobs who resist that damage type alot more often in late game. I think that the debuff added to AS should be pretty substantial, from even an "RP" sense of things. I mean...you're coming out of the shadows and supposedly delivering a "precise" and "massively devastating" attack on your "un-knowing" victim. He's not ready for it and has little chance to defend himself from it. It should, in all good sense, be a devastating blow against your foe, more than just damage. Plus, on a balance side of things...it's just a single target debuff...which needs a few things to be in place for it to even work, so it's doesn't come anywhere near being "too powerful" or anything.


I just think it really fits the theme and would help make Stalkers more valuable/viable on teams.


My main change for Stalkers, and suggestion still stands:


ASSASSIN STRIKE: Crippling (bonus attribute): : (debuff applied after a "successful" assassin strike, PvE Only)

• -500% Regen Rate for 30 seconds
  
  
• -30% resistance (all) for 30 seconds
  
  
• -30% defense (all) for 30 seconds
  
  
• Does not stack from same caster

1) See PvP placate bug.
2) Keep your hands off my spines AS. That change would break BU+AS+Placate in PvE.


Edit: To clarify, I'm not against the idea of (PvE) AS applying some kind of debuff. No dots.

I want to see stalkers do more damage through stalking. Not more scrapping. I'd like to see hide/AS/placate mechanics altered so stalkers can get repeated controlled crits in the same fight (without running away for 8 seconds). Obviously some limitations would need to apply, and I'm not sure how the mechanics should be altered exactly to achieve this, but that's the general direction Stalkers should go IMO.

I probably won't add the resistance debuff (too good). lol I just think that Stalker needs to offer something different during tough fights. Most of -regen is from supporting ATs and I think it will help Stalkers in strike force a lot if they can contribute -regen so the team no longer has to sit there and wait for Rad or Kin or any sets with good -regen.

This -regen in AS will not replace Kin and Rad but at least there is an option!

And 500% regen doesn't seem to matter that much against regular bosses anyway.