If You Were Castle How would you change Stalkers?

That last part was my main point - it would be like doing something to defense sets that improved SD without helping EA at all. Any improvement should help across the board or boost the weaker sets more. It's not like ElM needs that much help really, but it's the set that would benefit most from increased AoE size - which makes it look like a poor solution to me.

What's been proposed is more than just a -regen debuff, it would also be a -30% resistance/defense debuff for 30 seconds, on top of the -500% regen debuff. No matter how you slice it or dice it, that's a pretty powerful debuff on a single target, especially for a "non" debuffer/buffer AT. This means that, instead of picking up another Defender or Corruptor, a team could pick up a Stalker to fill the debuff role instead, while at the same time adding more damage to the fight (more than a Corruptor or Defender). The Crippling effect suggestion, on top of other suggestions (such as an increase in range on our +crit ability from teammates) would greatly increase a Stalker's damage potential against a single hard target while teamed. In alot of ways, it might actually make him more valuable to a team in overall AV damage output than adding a Corruptor or Defender to fill the debuff role, imho. Which means the AV not only is being effectively debuffed the entire fight, but is also dying alot faster. For most teams, that's a win/win situation, and I feel as though that is what our role "should" be when teamed.


Granted, 90% of the game doesn't require that one advantage, but it is useful in other applications as well, such as teams fighting multiple bosses and EB's at greater than +2 their level. The Cippling effect will help in those situations, and it will help both the team and the Stalker remove threats quickly.


Overall, I'd like to see these 3 things changed/fixed/added for Stalkers:

• Add Crippling Effect (-regen/-res/-def) debuff to successful AS's, 30 second duration, not stackable from same caster. PvE Only.
  
• Increase Stalker HP Cap to better utilize HP buff recieved awhile back.
  
• Increase Stalker "+Crit Chance Per-Teammate" range to between 50 and 60 feet.

In my opinion, if those three things were implimented for Stalkers, they'd be pretty darn close to being 100% fixed and ready for teaming.

I have been a stalker and pvped against stalkers an the hide /stealth thing isnt really a factor and doesnt need to get nerfed, real pvpers have delt with stalkers for years an know how to deal with them , hide has never really saved me from a whoopin.


On the second stalker myth i have seen stalkers turn the tide many times in Av battles . on teams every AT has a role . you mave have teamed with mr " Ill go scout ahead " stalker ,but on my BS/SR stalker i can scrap with the best of em soft capped to all positions out of hide he is not useless on teams at all

I agree with this. Stalkers should not be debuffing at all. They don't need a raise in the base hitpoints, but could maybe use 100 or so on the top end (to make powers like dull pain a bit more viable). They just really need a damage boost. Maybe something like what they did with blasters where each hit adds a temporary + damage boost (I haven't played a blaster but I remember a few years ago they did something like this).

I don't know what the solution is, and there's a lot of good ideas in this thread. But yeah -something- needs to be done.

Except it isn't very useful even in that scenerio. Not when there are controllers/corruptors/defenders who will be able to consistently debuff regeneration, defense and resistance at a higher level with more consistency. Adding the fear and tohit debuff was not originally intended to help teams - it was intended to help the stalker.

Adding any further debuffs - no matter how useful they sound on paper - is just shoehorning in yet another gimmick that will never be as useful to a team as getting a real debuffer.

When teams are up against high defense hard targets, you never hear anyone say "We're not hitting - someone get a katanna scrapper." because even though swords and such debuff defense, they will never, ever be as good as a /rad controller's -def toggle.

Adding debuffs to stalkers would only be of real benefit if they were added to each power, and even then they wouldn't be desirable for teams for their own sake. Adding it to one slow recharging power like AS will do even less.

I wouldn't say Stalkers shouldn't be debuffing. The way it's setup now, it's more a powerset choice if you're a debuffer or not...kind of like an Ice/Ice Tanker can be a debuffer via extreme amount of slows...or how a Sonic/Ice Blaster can be a controller via stuns, sleeps and holds...or a Stone/Dark Brute....you get the idea.

Again, I wouldn't say Stalkers shouldn't be debuffers...that's a viable direction to take the AT so long as you don't alter the function of the AT to do it. If the devs should think that Stalkers should be a strong single target specialist with decent debuffing capabilities to offset that it has weaker defenses vs Scraps, I'd back it. But -regen/-def/-res on a single target situational melee attack does not a debuffer AT make.

Lol, I think what many of you aren't fully grasping here....is that the Stalkers ability to "debuff" his target would MASSIVELY increase his own "personal" damage output on that target, as well as anyone elses damage output on that target.


You want a small damage increase? Worthless in the whole of things. You want an indirect damage increase that will further hinder your target and help your team. It's a solid debuff.


Crippling would, in all good sense, be a serious damage increase against a single target. No one is going to be asking a Stalker to play "debuffer" with his one very situational single target debuff. You guys are really sorta turning a blind eye to the damage increase you will get from this type of a debuff. Wanna know what it would "sorta" feel like and just how much faster you'll eliminate your single targets with it? Simple. Grab a */Cold Corruptor, setup a mission for a +3/4 boss, enter it. Then ask him to use Sleet+Benumb on your +3/4 Boss target the very milisecond "after" you AS him, then continue attacking. Profit. See just how much faster you're able to take that boss down. In fact, if you have a mission available with an EB, try it there as well. Just ask your buddy to refresh Sleet+Benumb every 30 seconds if needed.


In reality, your capability of dealing some serious single-target mayhem against a hard target will skyrocket, and this does not have to be achieved through a direct damage boost. One thing that this will have over a direct damage boost is, it makes you somewhat more appealing to a team running high con missions or AV/EB runs, since your single target capability is not only good, but helps increase their effectiveness as well. This sort of ability is what makes Buffers/Debuffers so appealing to a team.


Also, people claim that the debuff would be somewhat useless against 90% of what we fight in this game, and that a direct damage boost would be better. While I think that claim is a bit of a stretch, whether or not its true, what does it matter? If we are already taking down "soft" targets (medium level minions/Lts/low level bosses) with ease and within a couple of shots, then what is a "direct damage boost" going to do? You'll STILL be taking down those same mobs at the same rate. However, when you get to the high level EB or AV, the direct damage boost is going to offer ALOT less to you and the team than the indirect damage boost from a debuff. Furthermore, your debuff will affect and improve the entire team's damage pace and allow you to clear that target much faster.


People also claim that we already have debuffer AT's to do the debuffing. While that's true, it also has its problems. It means that while in a mission you will have to wait for that debuffer to decide to cast his debuff on your target. You might have to plead with him to do it more often even. But what about that hard target that is staying just outside debuff range and your team hasn't noticed yet but are getting slaughtered by it? As a Stalker, THIS scenario is one of your major callings. In that case, you won't have the Debuffer to debuff your foe and it's all up to you to take him down quickly. Without debuffs on a hard target and being solo, it's not always a walk in the park or "quick" either. What if while your debuffer was pulling the boss mob he got 2-shotted and dies? It happens often enough on average pick-up teams. If that debuffer used toggle debuffs (such as Rad), that hard target he just pissed off if no longer debuffed at all. If you had Crippling attached to AS, this would not be a hard problem and you (and even your team, thanks to the debuff) could put down that target quickly and recovery from a situation that almost went south.


The ability to "not" have to rely on a debuffer is what this would bring to a Stalker. This means that you can personally and professionally hand select the most threatening targets on the battlefield and quickly remove them without having to wait on a debuffers assistance. It also means that while teamed, you will be adding damage to your team against hard targets which means faster level clearing. This debuff would indeed be a damage debuff, just an indirect one.


I think that too many people "assume" that everyone plays on the most optimized team ever 100% of the time with the best players in the game. I'm sorry, but this is about as far as it gets from the truth. I don't know how many times I've been in pick-up groups where we were extremely light on solid debuffs or had none at all. In reality, most pickup groups will play out with "spotty" AT selection and even "spottyier" player skill level. Many times the main debuffers for the team even get themselves killed when trying to pull or debuff a hard target, and this happens not because their AT is bad or just bad luck, but because the player behind the controls isn't as skilled with the set as he could be. Because of these more "average" scenarios, I find Crippling to be vastly important to a Stalker's overall performance, especially when teamed. If your team happens to be debuffer heavy, then sure, Crippling would somewhat lose some of it's value, but honestly, oh-well. If you're on a debuffer heavy team, then direct damage buffs and debuffs are being thrown around like candy anyways and you're most likely steamrolling through the mission at fast pace. No one loses in that scenario, even though Crippling takes somewhat of a back seat to the massive area of effect debuffing being thrown about.


Imho, it even fits the concept of a Stalker. As I said before, you are striking your target from out of no-where. He is un-prepared for your attack and bewildered. In "real life" or just the RP sense of things, he would be so surprised that he would be stumbling about trying to recover from your attack, but not fully aware of where it came from. This would, in theme, decrease his defenses and ability to defend himself against you for a matter of time, thus making it easier for you to dispose of him, before he does have a chance to regain his senses (the time duration).


The indirect damage buff associated with Crippling would be amazingly effective at increasing a Stalker's own damage output as well as making them more attractive to a team setting, and that one suggestion I still have to stand by. Maybe mixed with a few other tweaks, fine, but I think Crippling is necessary.

If it were, we'd already have an offensive debuff attached to AS when it was first suggested back before demoralize was added.

I think another point that should be considered for changes is secondary sets. You say yourself that everyone's thinking of optimized circumstances but fail to see how 'crippling' seems to favor defense over non-defense.

You can say demoralize favors defense, but then that's a defensive debuff. You're talking about attaching an offensive edge to a situational attack on an offensive AT. As is, you can use AS and possibly exploit that tool as often as you can or not. You're not particularly penalized for it. Then what happens when you add crippling and I simply can't take advantage of it? Because I cannot remain uninterrupted?

Placate doesn't unsuppress hide, so unless you have AoE mitigation like taunts or knockback, or are only facing one target, a non-defense stalker will have more than a little trouble getting off another AS mid-combat.

Don't try and play dumb.

Massively? How so? a -res debuff? The only way this debuff would 'massively' boost a Stalker's personal damage is by applying it before using your attacks. After you AS means the AS didn't get the boost in damage from the -res power. Tankers got similar treatment, remember? A Tanker's brawl reduces the enemy's resistance by 20%. Did this boost the Tanker's DPS by a large margin? no. Did it boost the team's damage by a large margin? No.

What if it was AoE? 20% is still very low. Tar Patch reduces res by 30%. Infact, most powers that reduce resistance reduce it by atleast 20-30%, and even they don't make or break a class. sorry, but my Dark corruptor isn't brought along -just- for Tar Patch alone

Small? Your putting words in my mouth. Don't assume things in your arguement, makes you look foolish. I gave no exact number, if anything you should have warned me that a global damage buff that is too high could overpower the Stalker and cause Overkill damage, which makes the damage buff moot.

I once again point to the Tanker. He got an easy 20% res debuff and that didn't do much. Seems like your turning a blind eye to a debuff that didn't change much at all. Wasting time using Debuffs is something I doubt Stalkers want to do. I ask all the stalkers readint this thread to answer this question:

Why do you play a Stalker?

Most would answer: to use AS, high burst damage, etc. Not play a Quasi-Rad Defender who's first attack isn't an attack at all but a support ability. Not very stalkerish to me.

If Stalkers get a -res Debuff, can Defenders get a quick-recharging Pet to absorb Alpha so they can HEAlz0r easier?

Your assuming once again. Skyrocket? No. No it won't. If anything your numbers will still be subpar in comaprison to the Scrapper who is also benefitting from your debuff.

Sorry, but your debuff idea is buffing other damage classes beyond the Stalker. You really didn't think this through did you?

I'd say it's a stretch just assuming a debuff would solve all of the Stalker problems we see today. Your not solving the Stalker's damage problem, your taking a 90 degree turn and boosting everyone else's damage to compensate for Stalkers? Makes no sense.

We aren't claiming there are other Debuffing classes.. we're TELLING you there are other Debuffing classes. If your team is being slaughtered by a single enemy, then theres something else wrong with your team, not the Stalker. Horrible scenario that either A) never happens on an average team. Average teams get killed by silly mistakes like pulling too many mobs, ambushes, patrols, forgetting someone is afk etc. or B) only happens because the team is fighting lvl54 EB farms or something.

Stalker doesn't rely on a Debuffer to dish out damage. Debuffers boost EVERYONE'S capabilities against the targets, thus I could say that every damage archetype relies on debuffers to dish out damage. We're here to discuss the Stalker's capabilities in general. Give the Stalker a debuff and everyone benefits from it, thus you didn't help the Stalker, you worsened it by putting the Stalker's weaknesses under a microscope.

Yeah, your assuing a lot too buddy. Stalker is NOT a debuffer. Get this idiotic idea out of your head. Your probably one of those people who say that Blasters should get +20% resistance to all damage types so they can tank better. People picked Stalker to deal damage, not to debuff.

It doesn't fit the concept of the Stalker. It fits the concept of a Widow more closely. A Class who has poisonous darts and smoke bombs. Stalkers are assassins, not sabotuers, and if you play your Stalker like a sabotuer then your missing the point of AS, placate and critical strike entirely.

Stalkers would be more attractive to team setting if they did their job with less down time: I.E. took out high priority targets faster, and without having to hide every 5 seconds, not play a game of pretend-to-be-a-support-archetype.


Sorry but refine your arguement. Your crossing a fine line trying to make an archetype with a specific purpose in mind tread on the toes of not 1, but FOUR other archetypes' jobs: debuff.

A single debuff causes a multitude of problems:

1. It's another ability that is forces upon Stalkers. Stalkers already have to take Hide, Assassin Strike, Placate and Build Up. And even if this ability was inheritant, it would be another power Stalkers are forced to use. So the new Stalker attack chain would be: Debuff -> Build Up -> AS -> Placate -> Debuff -> AS. Thats rediculously long and once again has nothing to do with critical strike.

2. This debuff would boost the power of other archetypes. So now you have a debuff that puts the Stalker's attacks in a nice, comfy position of damage! But now Scrappers use your debuff, thus are still doing more damage than you! oh, and Brutes! and Blasters! etc. Doesn't solve the problem.

3. Confuse the newbies. When newbies read the Stalker's tag line, they think of assassins and serial killers etc. When you play a Stalker, you want to go. hunt and kill skuls, not throw dirt in their face to buff your team. if you wanted to do that, you would play a Defender or Corruptor instead. Infact, why play a Stalker for the debuff when you could just play a Sonic/Rad Corruptor and get the same effect?

4. The debuff does not solve the Stalker's out-of-hide damage, which is where Stalkers are lacking (along with being interrupted while hiding). This debuff wouldn't help that scenario. If anything it would discourage Stalkers from ever attacking out of hide. Why attack out of hide when your debuff boosts everyone else's damage to a point where they can kill the enemies at an optimum pace anyway? Just throw out the debuff, AS the boss then let your allies clean up. Sounds about the same as Stalkers are doing now.. only with their team catching up to them faster..

Just a nitpick or two here:

Bruising is actually a pretty substantial debuff for a melee class. A non-stacking unresistable resistance debuff is incredibly handy, and 20% is a fairly high number considering it's attached to the fastest recharging secondary ability a Tanker has, especially when you note that the power it's attached to is unavoidable and must be taken. It even stacks with other -Res debuffs from other players, so Bruising does, in fact, make a pretty noticeable difference solo and on teams. I've sure noticed it, don't know about you.

Also, Traps Defenders get quick-recharging pets to take Alpha's... they're called Seeker Drones. :P

I think you're generalizing his suggestion. The idea of the suggestion isn't even to enforce what a Stalker can do, but generalize their capabilities. A Brute doesn't just SMASH, he can also tank. A Dom doesn't just control, they can also blast.

Why I play a Stalker? Primarily because it can burst damage targets and has more control than other melees. It's not so much 'why' as it is 'can', though. I play a stalker because it can do those. If it can do other stuff too, then I can choose a 'why'.

That's kinda-sorta the goal, though. You use debuffs to help yourself and others. On a team, their damage is your damage. Their victory is yours and all that jazz.

I have yet to imagine the concept of a Stalker is fully realized yet. An assassin can be a saboteur or a predator or a hunter or a spy. Because, as is, 'Stalker' is loosely defined. Sure, we have 'Assassination' but that doesn't mean that's the only angle the AT *could* take.

While I don't think the -regen/def/res would 'fix' everything, it certainly wouldn't hurt. But there are other issues of balance that arises with that change. But if Stalkers suddenly got some inherent toggles that added a debuff to some of their attacks, Stalkers wouldn't cease to be Stalkers nor would they become 'debuffers'. No, it'd just be another facet of the AT's abilities, same as Brute and taunting.

At this point, with side switching, the whole 'stepping on toes' think is pretty moot. So long as an AT's capabilities is balanced within those capabilities of other ATs (see Tanker>Brute>Scrapper), then it's just another choice.

I *still* want a debuffing melee AT (basically just a defender but with stronger melee attacks) simply because I don't favor blasting sets as much as melee sets. Can't say Stalkers would ever fit that bill (nor would I want them completely overhauled for that task) But it wouldn't be stepping on any toes as long as the other ATs aren't completely overshadowed by this new AT in every way.

That would be nice. There have been numerous times where I would break line of site and go back into hide, only for the mobs to still see me.

You misread my intent. The idea of -regen is for a single situation, and that is for soloing AVs. It shouldn't be useful on a team or in any other situation, otherwise it would require a counterbalance, weakening Stalkers. But for this one situation, it would be very helpful.

I don't know if more Stalker changes is going to affect PvP even more. I would like shorten Assassin Strike animation + Placate animation + Placate recharge. Is this going to affect pvp much? Can the shorten animation be different in PvE and PvP?

Maybe they can just reduce re-hide counter to 6s?

Well, I am all for giving access to more "controlled" critical than "random". I've always said Stalker should be able to control where the critical lands.

Keeping the "PvP" balanced is the hard part when suggesting Stalker buffs, because we aren't in dire need of any "buffs" when it comes to pvp.


Drastically shortening animation times, reducing the time it takes to rehide, granting more ability to re-hide and critical, these are all things which will indeed affect PvP, and would in most cases make Stalkers more powerful there. I don't see that as something the dev's want to do at this time.


This is why I'm really pushing for a "pve only flagged debuff" (Crippling) being added to AS. Because it's something that could be easily flagged for "just" pve, and it wouldn't drastically change the mechanics or be a major playstyle adjustment for the pvp. In fact, in pvp you'd hardly notice that it wasn't there since the debuff pretty much just "automatically" works in pve with a successful AS.


I can see why "pvp based" Stalkers don't like the Crippling debuff idea, because it wouldn't improve their performance in pvp in any way at all. But I honestly, I really don't feel that the dev's think we need too much help there. A "direct" increase in damage would affect pvp in most cases. Sure, they could try to flag some of that damage increase for pve only, maybe, but then you sorta feel cheated when entering a pvp zone. Also, if they were to drastically reduce animation times, refresh times, and re-hide times in a "pve only" environment, but then set them back to "standard" in pvp, that would definitely cause a stir and upset people. Why? Because you'd be used to the way your Stalker feels in pve, then walk into pvp and it would play very differently. You would definitely feel the change and many would be upset about it. It would be like getting "nerfed" anytime you step foot in a pvp zone. Sure, there are other AT's that have that same feeling, but they dont' pvp much due to that feeling. I wouldn't like this to happen to Stalkers.


As far as "cast/refresh" times go, earlier in this thread I did also propose a slight change to certain powers, such as Assassin Strike, which would be minor enough in appearance that it wouldn't be a huge change in playstyle. I suggested that all AS's be reduced to have the same activation time as Kinetic Melee's AS (3 secs changed to 2.67 secs). This wouldn't be a huge change, but it would be enough of one that it may help us get an AS off with a little less worry of being interrupted. This would help us in using Crippling and keeping its debuff on our target during a fight.


I also proposed that Build Up's refresh time be reduced to 72 seconds, just like Claws's Build Up. This would help it to be up more often, which makes it more useable for our "burst damage" style of play. However, Claws users didn't like that idea too much, even though I suggested their build up be reduced to 60 seconds.


Those two changes combined with the debuff effect Crippling and the increase in +Critical per teammate range, I feel, would go a very long ways in helping Stalkers be alot more helpful on teams in pve, and wouldn't drastically affect their performance in pvp, other than the cast time/refresh time changes of AS and BU. Those are some pretty significant changes, when combined, and I do feel they'd be game changers for a Stalker in pve.

I'm actually all for that idea too, as I think it would help out "non" +defensive sets ALOT.