Issue 19 is WIN, but no proliferation?


Agonus

 

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Originally Posted by Seldom View Post
The easy proliferations:
Cold domination for masterminds
Energy melee for scrappers
Psy blast for corruptors
Energy aura for tanks

More finicky:
ice/ice for stalkers
/poison for corruptors
/ninjitsu for scrappers
Illusion/ for dominators
/Dark for controllers
Dark/ for blasters
/kinetics for masterminds (you think controlling your ninjas is tricky NOW? Try giving them crack!)
/radiation for masterminds (!!!!)
You forgot Sound Resonance for MMs.


 

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Originally Posted by BenRGamer View Post
You forgot Sound Resonance for MMs.
Doh! right. Edited! I can't believe I forgot that one, it's actually probably the easiest port of them all.


 

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Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker View Post
I wouldn't call that horrible at all. I'd say your response is pretty subjective tbh and it's made almost no difference to me.

I have no argument about the Devs listening - they certainly do, much more than Cryptic ever seemed to - NCSoft, not so much
Your point was subjective. That you trusted the devs to do everything you want. I gave an example of where I did not trust their judgment, complained about it and eventually saw an improvement to the game as I play it when they changed their mind and did what I said they should have done all along. In addition, the improvements to the market are only arguably subjective improvements. The market is more efficient now by economic standards and that can be objectively shown as an improvement over where red side used to be.

So your point is still refuted. If you don't care about proliferation, I understand and thank you for bumping the thread. But I do.


The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.

 

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Originally Posted by BenRGamer View Post
Personally, I think Illusion Control steps on the MM's toes too much with the number of pets it can have.

If Illusion was made today and not when the game began, it would probably be unrecognizable. Or at least without Phantom Army.
You may be right. But PA is more of a control power than a pet power.


The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.

 

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Originally Posted by BenRGamer View Post
As for why they didn't proliferate (or at least mention any proliferation), they added a bunch of new animations to existing powersets. I'm sure any time that would have otherwise gone to said proliferations was better used there.
Not really. Proliferation is handled by Castle, the powers guy. The animations were created by Colin Brown.


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and would be the first person to make one.
thats only because you get first access!


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Originally Posted by Lazarillo View Post
No, I'm still pretty sure it's EvilGeko's fault.
I'm unnaturally comfortable with that position.


 

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Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker View Post
Personally I'll trust the devs to decide what's right for the various issues and moving the game forward.

Sure there's all kinds of stuff we'd like to have but they know why they (don't) do stuff and so far their judgement hasn't been so horribly wrong has it?
yes. yes it has.

not a personal attack, but i really don't like people who think like this.that the devs are so infallible that whatever they give us will be amazing, which is of course complete ********.

there have been a great number of things the devs have been wrong about and haven't taken responsibility for. A mass of people like this(and again this isn't a personal attack, just a general statement since i see basically this statement every time i get on the boards) create a zero accountability environment which isn't good for anyone. the only way we've been able to admit their poor judgement and finally get changes that we want, is simply by a small vocal majority of people who consistently pled for their side over a long period of time, and eventually have a voice and reason bigger than the dev's ego. geko's example of the market merge is a good example of this. as well as the recent stamina change, side switching, and (on a more small scale) fire armor. Not to mention all the things they have added with empty promises and haven't touched since.


Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.

 

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I want to touch on not what PC Guy said, but what he has in his signature. I don't want proliferation to fall off the radar like PvP did. There are already folks who claim that it isn't important to do proliferation because all the ATs are available to each side.

The devs have created some AWESOME systems over the years, but they do have the habit of chasing the next shiny. The next shiny in this case is the endgame and Incarnates, two things I greatly wish for and support them in doing. But that doesn't mean that I'd like them to ignore other things in the game, especially low hanging fruit like proliferation.

Positron was probably right. They should have just done it all at once and gotten it over with.


The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.

 

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Originally Posted by EvilGeko View Post
I want to touch on not what PC Guy said, but what he has in his signature. I don't want proliferation to fall off the radar like PvP did. There are already folks who claim that it isn't important to do proliferation because all the ATs are available to each side.

The devs have created some AWESOME systems over the years, but they do have the habit of chasing the next shiny. The next shiny in this case is the endgame and Incarnates, two things I greatly wish for and support them in doing. But that doesn't mean that I'd like them to ignore other things in the game, especially low hanging fruit like proliferation.

Positron was probably right. They should have just done it all at once and gotten it over with.
I agree, it's not the same as ATs switching sides and I really hope they don't stop proliferation due to that way of thinking. Even though I understand if they can't get anything in for the next issue or two, I sincerely hope we've not seen the last of this awesome system. I adds tremendous replay value for me and while I'm in it for life, replay value helps retain subs for that much longer.


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Originally Posted by EvilGeko View Post
I want to touch on not what PC Guy said, but what he has in his signature. I don't want proliferation to fall off the radar like PvP did. There are already folks who claim that it isn't important to do proliferation because all the ATs are available to each side.

The devs have created some AWESOME systems over the years, but they do have the habit of chasing the next shiny. The next shiny in this case is the endgame and Incarnates, two things I greatly wish for and support them in doing. But that doesn't mean that I'd like them to ignore other things in the game, especially low hanging fruit like proliferation.

Positron was probably right. They should have just done it all at once and gotten it over with.

Yeah, I have to agree also. At onetime I assumed this was because of money and man power (at the time I was assuming I was right), now I think it is just taking a back seat because any AT can be played on any side.

It still needs to happen though, not just within same AT types (ex. Scrappers and brutes). People really want a MA secondary for blasters, and I personally think it fits. Nin fits better for scrapper concepts for me (I just don't enjoy the stalker play style). I don't want the devs to forget about proliferation, and I still want Purple IOs for Defense, and Damage Resistance sets (or scrapper secondaries if you will).

While I LOVE the direction the Devs are going in (I loved the alpha slot in GR testing), there are things I don't want forgotten.


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Originally Posted by macskull View Post
Kind of hoping for Cold MMs myself, but oh wells...
^^ So much this ^^


 

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Originally Posted by Dark_Respite View Post
I want Dark/Dark doms, and something/kin MMs. Each issue remains an exercise in patience.

Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite
After they gutted pet recharge there isnt even a point to make a kin mastermind anymore. You will never be able to full benefit from the damage of fulcrum shift because your pets would die with a mission set for 8 with using only the kinetic heal. So again I dont see how kinetics would work good at all.


Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator

Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!

 

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Originally Posted by JKPhage View Post
I'll admit I haven't read the thread, just skipped ahead to drop in my two cents after seeing Ocho voice support for Illusion for Doms.

Illusion/Psionic Assault. I would make it my main and play it more than any other toon. It would DESTROY anything that stood in front of it.
i could get behind that. And stay there while you destroy everything in front.


Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...

 

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I want sonics for MM. I know there is already force fields (which I don't take due to lack of debuffs), but I don't really see the problem with sonic being ported over.

If the toggle debuff (Disruption field) is the issue, they could always just switch power orders around and swap it with something else like the "Clarity". I mean it wouldn't be that much of a game changer since MM already have dark with Tar Pit, but just minus the heals from dark set I would think would balance it out. It isn't like sonic is like force fields, the pets will still get hit just as often, but just not as hard.


 

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I've wanted to make an Illusion/Fire Dom since CoV beta. Had a concept all ready. Alas, they didn't make Illusion available for Dominators. And Slug was a sad bug.

When they started doing proliferation I was hopeful for Illusion/* Doms to make the cut. Thus far that hasn't happened. They gave */Thermal to Controllers and I was able to make an almost-good-enough substitute for my original concept, but would still prefer to make it as originally intended.

A few others that I wouldn't mind seeing ports for:
*/Broadsword Tanker
Broadsword/* Brute (I like the idea but would need to play with the mechanics/numbers to see if the reality matches the picture in my head)
*/Ninjitsu Scrapper
*/Sonic Mastermind

Dark/* Blaster or */Ice Stalker might even get me interested in those ATs again.


 

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Originally Posted by MentalMaden View Post
While I realize it's not exactly the same, isn't side switching and Any-AT-starting-Praetoria sort of doing something proliferation-esque? I'm enjoying my blueside Praetorian stalker.

/shrug


But I do want to see ice stalkers.

"Is it cold in here to you?"
"Hey, what's that?"
"Oh nothing, just a big block of ice someone left lying around."
"Did it just move?"
"Eh, don't pay it no mind. What's the worst that could happen? It's just ice."

ASSASSIN FREEZE!!!!

I probably get far too defensive when it comes to Stalker concepts and proliferation, but do people actually think this way? Or are they only half joking?

Because a man made of ice can be just as clear as glass...invisible, one might say.

Not that you even need to explain being invisible ice (concept = you're a stalker therefore you can turn invisible. end of story) but it's the easier concept to explain.



 

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Illusion Doms sound cool, but everytime I see someone say Controllers got Plant and now Doms don't have any unique sets I have to think about all those Assault sets Doms and noone else gets.

Proliferate Assault sets to Corruptors and Defenders.

Well change them around abit, level 38 snipes aren't really gonna be all that great on fenders.


 

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Originally Posted by Leo_G View Post
I probably get far too defensive when it comes to Stalker concepts and proliferation, but do people actually think this way? Or are they only half joking?

Because a man made of ice can be just as clear as glass...invisible, one might say.

Not that you even need to explain being invisible ice (concept = you're a stalker therefore you can turn invisible. end of story) but it's the easier concept to explain.


If we can get the effect to look like that it'ld be AWESOME!


 

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really as i see it, there are a number of directions that they can go each issue, new tips, new weapons, new animations, new costumes(not going to be snarky, not going to be snarky), base stuff, more oroboros, more papers, redoing old content, ae stuff, even pvp stuff, though thats probably a second snark landmine. point is that proliferation has had a fairly recent addition, im sure they will get around to it, but as balancing goes, i think you are understating the amount of work they put into sets to try to keep them from being too out of whack when added to different at's. It is no secret that pa is already a outlier as damage goes, you have suggested as much yourself, most like it, like psi blast, may have some adjustment in porting, so its not just something that can be casually tossed off for an off issue. much like ss for scrappers, i would not eb surprised if it was ported in some form for dominators, but i just not seeing where the pressing need for another run of proliferation is a make or break this to this issue. If anything, since we can assume that they are already doing some work that will go into subsequent issues, i'd imagine that castle is probably working on incarnate powers.

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Originally Posted by EvilGeko View Post
Actually, there are several things where they're judgment has been horribly wrong, we complained until they changed their minds, and the game was better for it. For example, at one point, the devs were adamant that we shouldn't have a market merge because it would "hurt" villains. Two months in and the market is healthier than I've ever seen it.

The game as it stands now is a testament to the devs ability to listen to complaints from their loyal, but crabby, playerbase.
now you know enough to know this is a biased comment. the players have complained about just about every change made to the game, in some cases their commentary has helped the game, in some cases it has been unreliable, statistically invalid, biased to specific play styles or would make the game worse. just because a few decisions were overturned for the argueably better does not mean that player feedback is in any way superior to internal metrics, it simply is another metirc to watch. We can just selectively point to the times that it has and forget that long time posters here have repeatedly made suggestions that would so permanently throw balance out of whack in this game(particularly for specific kinds of tanks) that their feedback would have done irrevocable harm. we can also point to suggestions that have been made that simply are infeaseable for this or any video game, or would be huge time/resource sinks for limited payoff. we get it right some times, but there are a lot of us and we throw a lot of suggestions, and a lot of them are "horribly wrong".

Furthermore, it assumes that here ever is clear concensus in the first place, have you noticed how free stamina has even generated some vocal discontent, remember the dom buff? Even on ostensibly popular ideas, there will be some who will object because it upsets some aspect of their game, that's just the nature of change. feedback is important, and it has, at times, lead to improvements in the product but lets not oversell ourselves, we are as fallible as they, and most of us, realistically, dont know as much about the reality of programming and financially maintaining a video game.


 

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Originally Posted by Seldom View Post
Illusion would work well for dominators, in my opinion, not because they have domination but because they have attacks. An illusion controller can put out a great deal of damage, but if they lack an offense-friendly secondary much of that damage goes away. A dominator? high damage makes this less of a problem. With their damage, spectral wounds would be obscenely damaging.
Conversely, the only way to improve the damage of PA (which is generally much more significant than spec wounds while they are out) is through -res debuffs. Trollers have them in spades and usually available at early levels. Dom's have two of them; one being a st debuff and of course the dom version of sleet, which is pretty obscene, but is obscene for all doms.

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Originally Posted by Blood_Beret View Post
Last The devs mentioned was if Illusion was ported it would probably be modified for MMs.
This is not accurate. The last mention was said if and when it is ported it would go to doms and that an eventual port is likely.

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Originally Posted by Tidbit Jr. View Post
I think Illusion Control can and should be ported over to Dominators.

I also believe that minor tweaks to the set are in order.




Now that I got that out of the way:
One power that I think they could certainly drop would be Group Invisibility. Dominators aren't really team-buffers, so it could make room for another control-power which would benefit from Domination.

Also, while Illusions may also be viable as a base for a Mastermind set, I do not think that means Dominators should never receive it as well.
It's not entirely out of line for doms to have a group buff. Plant was originally created specifically FOR doms and has a group buff.


 

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Proliferate Assault sets to Corruptors and Defenders.
The problem with that is that the Corruptor and Blaster parimary, as well as the Defender secondary, are Blast category.

Assault is like the Manipulation sets, and is a category of its own. Not only that, but it's made from Blast sets combined with Melee sets.

So, if you're asking for ports of them, you'd find that they not only clash by category, but also because most of their counterparts exist already, such as Fire Blast as the counterpart to Fiery Assault.

Though if what you meant was that you want equivalents to Earth and Thorny Assault, I can understand that. I sometimes wonder myself what the power table for "Spines/Thorn Blast" would look like.

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It's not entirely out of line for doms to have a group buff. Plant was originally created specifically FOR doms and has a group buff.
To you and the other person(s) who mentioned that: good point. Forget I mentioned Group Invisibility.


 

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Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake View Post
now you know enough to know this is a biased comment.
No, it's not. The statement I was refuting was that the devs decisions were entitled to absolute trust and judgment. Positron stated that the market merge would do bad things to villains. It hasn't. FACT. Not bias, fact.

He was wrong, based on observable evidence in the markets, horribly so. As we told them since 2007, merging the markets would have no downside to the operations of the markets and it hasn't.


The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.

 

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Originally Posted by EvilGeko View Post
No, it's not. The statement I was refuting was that the devs decisions were entitled to absolute trust and judgment. Positron stated that the market merge would do bad things to villains. It hasn't. FACT. Not bias, fact.

He was wrong, based on observable evidence in the markets, horribly so. As we told them since 2007, merging the markets would have no downside to the operations of the markets and it hasn't.
Well first be careful you don't put words into my mouth. I have never said "absolute" and if you look at my posting history I'm highly critical when I feel the need to be so.

Secondly, GR and the Market Merge has only been a very recent phenomenon, and it's hard to know yet what the long term effect of that might be.

Thirdly in 2007, there was no GR. Without the ability to side switch it is entirely possible that things may have looked very bad for the market. The Devs had said several times they looked at the numbers and it was not good.

Even if you are right, and as things stand I'd suggest it's case not proven yet, given the large swing towards hero-side, this is the Devs game and they have a number of plans and goals that we aren't privy to, which may affect stuff down the line. The fact that after 6 years the game's still releasing big content tells me they are doing an ok job in many areas, so if they aren't proliferating now, there's probably a reason for that. Nobody's said they won't proliferate more but just now we've had 4 brand new power sets that give us a lot of new combinations. I'm hardly surprised, having produced all that content they aren't quite ready to rework other sets that have been around in game for a while. We'll see them expand in due course I've no doubt, but not for a while.



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