Issue 19 is WIN, but no proliferation?
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Posted on: 2010-10-05 13:00 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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My guess is that they did look at PA and decided it was only a problem in one encounter and as such gave hami the ability to destroy PA.|
Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
Here's my reasoning. For every single ability that a hero/villain has access to, I could name some mechanic that counteracts it or at least mollifies its effectiveness. Whether that's PToD protecting AVs against mez, or abilities that grant foes +acc and +ToHit to break through high defense, or simply creating an enemy group with higher protection to certain mez types-- Nemesis and confuse come to mind-- there are tools that the developers can employ to counter hero abilities and make the game challenging.
What counteracts 3 untouchable pets that happen to do damage with a 27 second mag 4 taunt attached? I can't think of anything, and that's my reasoning. Have you watched an Illusion/** solo some of the most difficult GMs and AVs this game has? Illusion Control isn't doing this because of the breadth of abilities available to the set, Illusion Control is doing it because Phantom Army puts up an indestructible wall. Plenty of sets have access to enough damage and -regeneration to take down similar foes, but only one set has the access to invincible set pieces. From a design stand point, I would never want players to have access to indestructible pets, let alone ones that do damage and possess long duration / high magnitude agro generating abilities. And no, soloing AVs and GMs is not reason enough to label a skill as broken, as plenty of ATs can do the same and every character gets increasingly powerful through global recharge bonuses. But doing so without any risk whatsoever? Only PA grants this. Illusion is a legacy set, and Phantom Army kind of floats under the radar because of this. As soon as Illusion is ported, however, Phantom Army would probably be looked at. |
For normal mobs 3 single target unfocused and uncontrollable pets doesn't seem to present much of a concern against ~16 mobs.
If they considered them to be a problem during other tough single foe encounters which is where the power really shines, they likely would have given those foes the ability to destroy PA as well. They could have easily given Recluse such an ability for instance.
Anyway, you are of course entitled to your opinion. I don't personally feel it is justified, but that's ok.
Presumably, Castle and his Powers Minions were kind of busy making the incarnate stuff work. And making fitness inherent. You know, minor tweaks.
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Illusion won't be ported for Doms. At least that's what I think.
No one pays attention to me, cause I listen to the voices in my head.
I'll sign too for Illusion Dominators.
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That's one way to look at it I suppose. I feel that they looked at Hamidon when they repeatedly addressed the raid a while back, not Phantom Army, and realigned Hamidon's powers and abilities to fit their vision of how the raid should be run. Their focus was on Hamidon, and this is but one example of how players manipulated his behavior with *cough* a highly exploitable skill.|
Originally Posted by Lolblaws
My guess is that they did look at PA and decided it was only a problem in one encounter and as such gave hami the ability to destroy PA.
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Sometimes developers have permission to fix one thing and not another, because altering Phantom Army is a whole new can of worms.
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Originally Posted by Lolblaws
If they considered them to be a problem during other tough single foe encounters which is where the power really shines, they likely would have given those foes the ability to destroy PA as well. They could have easily given Recluse such an ability for instance. |
Or you could just drop Phantom Army...
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Personally I'll trust the devs to decide what's right for the various issues and moving the game forward. |
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
We haven't had any proliferation since Issue 16. Issue 20 will be packed with Incarnate stuff and the end-game stuff.
Now's the time in a transitional issue like this. They're almost done. The can finish a couple of ATs right now. |
Sure there's all kinds of stuff we'd like to have but they know why they (don't) do stuff and so far their judgement hasn't been so horribly wrong has it?
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Last The devs mentioned was if Illusion was ported it would probably be modified for MMs.
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Unless the illusion controller is able to defeat the GM in 1 minute with only the illusion set then I would agree with you, but since that is not the case you are forgetting something important. The controller's secondary power set! |
Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
Here's my reasoning. For every single ability that a hero/villain has access to, I could name some mechanic that counteracts it or at least mollifies its effectiveness. Whether that's PToD protecting AVs against mez, or abilities that grant foes +acc and +ToHit to break through high defense, or simply creating an enemy group with higher protection to certain mez types-- Nemesis and confuse come to mind-- there are tools that the developers can employ to counter hero abilities and make the game challenging.
What counteracts 3 untouchable pets that happen to do damage with a 27 second mag 4 taunt attached? I can't think of anything, and that's my reasoning. Have you watched an Illusion/** solo some of the most difficult GMs and AVs this game has? Illusion Control isn't doing this because of the breadth of abilities available to the set, Illusion Control is doing it because Phantom Army puts up an indestructible wall. Plenty of sets have access to enough damage and -regeneration to take down similar foes, but only one set has the access to invincible set pieces. From a design stand point, I would never want players to have access to indestructible pets, let alone ones that do damage and possess long duration / high magnitude agro generating abilities. And no, soloing AVs and GMs is not reason enough to label a skill as broken, as plenty of ATs can do the same and every character gets increasingly powerful through global recharge bonuses. But doing so without any risk whatsoever? Only PA grants this. Illusion is a legacy set, and Phantom Army kind of floats under the radar because of this. As soon as Illusion is ported, however, Phantom Army would probably be looked at. |
PA when even enhanced for acc/dmg still sucks without any debuffing of the target. The main reason my PA's kick butt is from rad debuffs and choking cloud. If I can recall correctly, the base damage of PA heals back, only enhanced damage part remains if the target does not die. Yes they are indestructable except from hami, but its more of from the Knockbacks, Spectral Terror, and my secondary, radiation, that my ill/rad lives, not because I have PA (though they do help most of the time).
I think Illusion Control can and should be ported over to Dominators.
I also believe that minor tweaks to the set are in order.
Now that I got that out of the way:
One power that I think they could certainly drop would be Group Invisibility. Dominators aren't really team-buffers, so it could make room for another control-power which would benefit from Domination.
Also, while Illusions may also be viable as a base for a Mastermind set, I do not think that means Dominators should never receive it as well.
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I wouldn't say it's a no risk thing. As soon as those pets go away all the aggro they had immediately shifts to the pet summoner. So even if you have PA perma'd getting the second group out before the AV/GM floors you can potentially be tricky. In the hands of a skilled player PA can certainly make these fights very low risk, but if a power depends on a player's skill to do what you say is broken, then maybe it's not quite broken.
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Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
soloing AVs and GMs is not reason enough to label a skill as broken, as plenty of ATs can do the same and every character gets increasingly powerful through global recharge bonuses. But doing so without any risk whatsoever? Only PA grants this.
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ATs are collections of stats, attributes and possibly an inherent ability. They don't have feelings and they don't care about being unique. They're numbers on a spreadsheet.|
Originally Posted by Airhammer
I am one who doesnt think that everything should be ported over. Some things should be unique within an AT IMO.
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PLAYERS want to be unique with the CHARACTERS they play. Increasing the potential number of options in character creation provides MORE UNIQUENESS.
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Actually, there are several things where they're judgment has been horribly wrong, we complained until they changed their minds, and the game was better for it. For example, at one point, the devs were adamant that we shouldn't have a market merge because it would "hurt" villains. Two months in and the market is healthier than I've ever seen it. |
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
Personally I'll trust the devs to decide what's right for the various issues and moving the game forward.
Sure there's all kinds of stuff we'd like to have but they know why they (don't) do stuff and so far their judgement hasn't been so horribly wrong has it? |
The game as it stands now is a testament to the devs ability to listen to complaints from their loyal, but crabby, playerbase.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Of course. And think of how much work they'll have in Issue 20 with 2 or more new Incarnate slots, which have even more effect on what characters can do. It's time for a round of proliferation.
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Originally Posted by Dysmal
Presumably, Castle and his Powers Minions were kind of busy making the incarnate stuff work. And making fitness inherent. You know, minor tweaks.
|
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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I didn't want this post to be dominated by Illusion (pun not intended). I'm still looking for Mace Scrappers, Ice Stalkers, etc. |
Originally Posted by Tidbit Jr.
I think Illusion Control can and should be ported over to Dominators.
I also believe that minor tweaks to the set are in order. Now that I got that out of the way: One power that I think they could certainly drop would be Group Invisibility. Dominators aren't really team-buffers, so it could make room for another control-power which would benefit from Domination. Also, while Illusions may also be viable as a base for a Mastermind set, I do not think that means Dominators should never receive it as well. |
But to your point. I don't think Illusion needs any changes at all. Plant has Spirit Tree which is a regen buff, so Group Invis isn't out of place. In addition, it's a handy place to add a LoTG 7.5.
The Domination thing is a complete red-herring. It doesn't matter one bit whether Illusion can benefit from Domination because the set has plenty of other controls that provide effects on par or better. As stated Illusion has three power subject to Domination. Most other Control sets have a ST and AoE Immobilize and a sleep. These powers are nice, but in most cases they aren't anymore useful than Phantom Army, or especially Spectral Terror.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
I'll admit I haven't read the thread, just skipped ahead to drop in my two cents after seeing Ocho voice support for Illusion for Doms.
Illusion/Psionic Assault. I would make it my main and play it more than any other toon. It would DESTROY anything that stood in front of it.
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Illusion is fun.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
You want an illusion dom? Pretend it's there already.
Problem solved. I'd be perfectly happy if Illusion completely disappeared. With two invisibilities, I don't know what's taking it so long. Can't stand that set. Yes, I've run it to nearly 40. Still don't like it one bit. |
I have 4 Illusion controllers and what bores me about them is the controller secondaries (excluding Storm). I'd love to play some with the dom secondaries and domination.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
I don't see any reason not to port it over. It might require tweaking, a few sets have before when being ported. But that's about it.
My only request would be that they give Masterminds a version of it too. I have a few dream/nightmare villains waiting to come forth.
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I wouldn't call that horrible at all. I'd say your response is pretty subjective tbh and it's made almost no difference to me. |
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Actually, there are several things where they're judgment has been horribly wrong, we complained until they changed their minds, and the game was better for it. For example, at one point, the devs were adamant that we shouldn't have a market merge because it would "hurt" villains. Two months in and the market is healthier than I've ever seen it.
The game as it stands now is a testament to the devs ability to listen to complaints from their loyal, but crabby, playerbase. |
I have no argument about the Devs listening - they certainly do, much more than Cryptic ever seemed to - NCSoft, not so much
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While I realize it's not exactly the same, isn't side switching and Any-AT-starting-Praetoria sort of doing something proliferation-esque? I'm enjoying my blueside Praetorian stalker.
/shrug
But I do want to see ice stalkers.
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How long have scrappers wanted Energy Melee or Super strength?
Really, I just want to see Ninitsu ported to scrappers.
I agree, it is time for more proliferation. I will also admit it made me sad to see there isn't a new Eviscerate animation.
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you'd be wrong, but that's your prerogative.|
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
I wouldn't call that horrible at all.
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| I'd say your response is pretty subjective tbh and it's made almost no difference to me. |
Any improvement in the general welfare is a net good for the game.
The market merge has been a boon for pretty much everyone except the redside marketeers who enjoyed massive profit taking on the back of much lower levels of supply.
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Personally, I think Illusion Control steps on the MM's toes too much with the number of pets it can have.
If Illusion was made today and not when the game began, it would probably be unrecognizable. Or at least without Phantom Army.
Illusion would work well for dominators, in my opinion, not because they have domination but because they have attacks. An illusion controller can put out a great deal of damage, but if they lack an offense-friendly secondary much of that damage goes away. A dominator? high damage makes this less of a problem. With their damage, spectral wounds would be obscenely damaging.
That said, developers seem to lean toward the easy ports first. The finicky sets would be things like ninjitsu for anything non-stalker, illusion because the damage/AT fit might need tweaks, Super strength for scrappers because of the rage+high damage mod might work out, and so on.
The easy proliferations:
Cold domination for masterminds
Sonic resonance for masterminds
Energy melee for scrappers
Psy blast for corruptors
Energy aura for tanks
More finicky:
ice/ice for stalkers
/poison for corruptors
/ninjitsu for scrappers
Illusion/ for dominators
/Dark for controllers
Dark/ for blasters
/kinetics for masterminds (you think controlling your ninjas is tricky NOW? Try giving them crack!)
/radiation for masterminds (!!!!)
/regen for brutes/tanks
*edit: forgot /sonic for mm's, and /regen.
As for why they didn't proliferate (or at least mention any proliferation), they added a bunch of new animations to existing powersets. I'm sure any time that would have otherwise gone to said proliferations was better used there.
Ocho's opinions are not Ultra Mode compatible...
or else they'd be reflective..
*hides*
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