Emperor Cole at the end of the Power Loyalist Arc...
By
AnElfCalledMack,
Posted on: 2010-09-20 14:19 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Quote:
Compared to the fascist horror of Tyrant's murderous dictatorship, no |
Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
Is this not tyrannical, quarrelsome and otherwise disruptive to the well-being of the people as a whole?
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
There is no need to continue to entertain yourself with these delusions, young one.
Should I ask, "What makes Emperor Cole a tyrant," you will respond "For he is a tyrant." You have no message, and you've subscribed to a particular belief without any semblance of reason. You are no better than the traitorous scoundrels who lurk in the sewers beneath us. If you would like to be taken seriously, you may wish to employ an amount of intellect to accompany your claims.
Not that it will matter, of course, for your crushing defeat at the hands of my Emperor lingers on the horizon, but perhaps you can make more effective use of what time you still have available to you.
Quote:
Well, I'd also repost the stuff that shows what a monster he is |
Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
There is no need to continue to entertain yourself with these delusions, young one.
Should I ask, "What makes Emperor Cole a tyrant," you will respond "For he is a tyrant." |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
Dang, that's a real good one too. |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
That blog isn't really helping your case
|
"If Pro is the opposite of Con, then what is the opposite of Congress?"
Progressman - Level 50 - Energy/Energy Blaster - 500 Badges
~Virtue~
Quote:
Good for a laugh, yes |
Originally Posted by Progressman
Dang, that's a real good one too.
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
Err, no? O.o'
|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Good for a laugh, yes
|
"If Pro is the opposite of Con, then what is the opposite of Congress?"
Progressman - Level 50 - Energy/Energy Blaster - 500 Badges
~Virtue~
Remember, Progressman. You're dealing with a woman who cannot or will not see reason or utilize logic beyond the most simple of concepts.
She will simply toss a winking smiley face on the end of her sentences with the same authority of the common forumite and believe, in haughty arrogance, that she has proven beyond all doubt her beliefs are true.
-Rachel-
Quote:
Yes - whack-job blogs are almost always funny |
Originally Posted by Progressman
Err, no? O.o'
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
I can see that.
|
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
Remember, Progressman. You're dealing with a woman who cannot or will not see reason or utilize logic beyond the most simple of concepts.
She will simply toss a winking smiley face on the end of her sentences with the same authority of the common forumite and believe, in haughty arrogance, that she has proven beyond all doubt her beliefs are true. -Rachel- |
"If Pro is the opposite of Con, then what is the opposite of Congress?"
Progressman - Level 50 - Energy/Energy Blaster - 500 Badges
~Virtue~
As a random note about morality in Praetoria, I would like to point out that Cole wasn't the first to bring shades of moral gray to the world, you might say their "morality evolved different than ours."
The America mentioned by the hobo is not our America, it is not CoX-Verse's America, it is an America that Elected General MacArthur for President. It is an America that swore a man into office who dropped nuclear bombs on on the borders of North and South Korea during the Korean war, killing thousands of our own people and the people America was supposed to be protecting as well as possibly causing nuclear fallout that likely devastated Asia well before Hamidon came about. Indeed, it truly was a darker America that felt justified to drop nuclear weapons on itself and kill millions of American citizens with a weapon that caused enormous collateral damage, and by that point had proven ineffective against against the advance of the swarm.
It was not any America we knew. The world of Praetoria had changed long before Cole even gained power with Stephen Richter and killed him... It is... a Grim Dark future...
Click here to find all the All Things Art Threads!
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
|
Quote:
And we all know only MY beliefs are true.
|
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
She will simply toss a winking smiley face on the end of her sentences with the same authority of the common forumite and believe, in haughty arrogance, that she has proven beyond all doubt her beliefs are true.
|
Quote:
It's how you get 30+ posts made a day.
|
Originally Posted by Progressman
I can see that.
|
Quote:
Her capacity for double-think is certainly fascinating for someone who cries out against fascism. It certainly takes quite some leaps of logic to mercilessly kill Seers because they're just another tool of oppression and a second later to consider them just another set of victims of a fascist regime when it's suddenly convenient to say so.|
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
Remember, Progressman. You're dealing with a woman who cannot or will not see reason or utilize logic beyond the most simple of concepts.
She will simply toss a winking smiley face on the end of her sentences with the same authority of the common forumite and believe, in haughty arrogance, that she has proven beyond all doubt her beliefs are true. -Rachel- |
The funny thing about Praetoria is that you cannot go through it without being disgusted by both sides if you're an actually moral person. After the hundreth time watching a Resistance Crusader gun down civilians in a drug-dazed stupor you decide to become a Loyalist instead only to turn around again after seeing Praetoria's justice system up-close.
What do you choose when your choices are a government ruled by an oppressor or a revolution led by sociopaths? Would you rather help a scientist who's doing his best Doctor Mengele act by killing countless seers in cruel operations, but don't worry, he's doing it for their own good! Or do you choose to support a man who sends his daughter to be brainwashed and bereft of her indivduality because he sincerely believes she will be able to do good that way?
Praetoria's designed in such a way that it's impossible not to get blood on your hands, even in the "good" Warden and Responsibiliy arcs. That's why I find Golden Girl's act so disturbing. It's a polarised view that completely ignores individual human losses in order to further an idelogy, just like a certain super-powered dictator does. It's that part where you agree with her that Emperor Cole's regime is wrong, but just hearing her own propaganda machine gives you that feeling that you're being lied to and manipulated so you slowly start sympathising with the other side.
It's certainly why I believe that Golden Girl is secretly an agent of Emperor Cole.
Quote:
bah, I've known Golden Girl is secretly evil for a long time now. check out my signature! She actually wanted to make three way porn of all the existing Marcus Cole incarnations in a plot to melt the forums! ALL FOR THE LULZ!
|
Originally Posted by Noxilicious
It's certainly why I believe that Golden Girl is secretly an agent of Emperor Cole.
|
Click here to find all the All Things Art Threads!
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
|
Quote:
I for one am glad you appreciated the arc, and were able to make a connection with one of your characters and his/her beliefs. |
Originally Posted by Progressman
... is my favorite ending of a story arc in the game.
http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Neuron#Aid_the_Loyalists I couldn't imagine bringing myself to side with the Resistance after this.  "Too many have already forgotten how hubris nearly destroyed us all." |
I have characters that will proudly stand shoulder-to-shoulder with you. I also have characters that are as virulent as the most loathsome crusader or aloofly brutal warden. It is a fine testimony to the quality of Praetoria, and the work of the Dev team.
<aside> I wish everyone was able keep from cluttering threads that appreciates all aspects of the stories and character opportunities in the game like this was some sort of PvP arena.</aside>
City of Heroes was my first MMO, & my favorite computer game.
R.I.P.
Chyll - Bydand - Violynce - Enyrgos - Rylle - Nephryte - Solyd - Fettyr - Hyposhock - Styrling - Beryllos - Rosyc
Horryd - Myriam - Dysquiet - Ghyr
Vanysh - Eldrytch
Inflyct - Mysron - Orphyn - Dysmay - Reapyr - - Wyldeman - Hydeous
Quote:
Loyalist -> Hero is not actually the Responsibility path, and choosing "Hero" is not choosing "Loyalist". If you listen to what Marchand tells you before you make that choice, choosing to go to Paragon City is choosing to oppose the Emperor's invasion and support the people of Primal Earth (by standing as an example that not all Praetorians are evil). |
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
My Responsibility Loyalist (who went Loyalist at every decision point, including the Warden arcs she ran undercover) was very disappointed with her interview with Cole, for what it's worth. To be called a traitor, after sacrificing personal friendships and emotional attachments for the greater good? Too cruel, sir. Too cruel.
|
The speech you get from Cole when you step out of the Rift Enclosure into Paragon City is not the speech the OP is talking about. Throughout the Responsibility path, you have been expressing your loyalty to Praetoria and to Provost Marchand, not to Emperor Cole (the penultimate Responsibility mission, when you and Kang gang up on Arachnos to save Neutropolis, is expressly against the orders of the Emperor). After that, even if you put down Kang because he has snapped and wants to join the anarchists now, choosing to follow Marchand's path over the Emperor's is most definitely being a traitor to the Emperor. Whether that makes you a traitor to what matters to you is up to you.
The speech the OP is referring to is at the end of the Power arc, when the moral choice is literally between "do what the Emperor commanded to protect the people from Neuron's insanity" and "blow it all up for the lolz and impress the Resistance". When you call the Emperor and do as he asked, you see the hero that Emperor Cole once truly was shining through.
I suppose if you then went to Paragon City, you would probably still get the traitor speech, though.
Quote:
I'm afraid, sir, that your claim that you seek to further the betterment of Praetorian populace does not paint you in a favorable light - namely, that of either a liar, or an incompetent. We agree, I'm sure, that Praetoria's suppression of freedom of expression or thought is essential for its survival, and yet we must disagree on what that survival means.|
Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
We in Praetoria seek only to further the betterment of the public, my dear. Do you know why we have such things as prisons and rehabilitation facilities? It is because the public will eventually turn on itself given the chance. When a man decides that his personal needs or desires outweigh those of his neighbors, he is heading down a dangerous path of mistakes and misguided effort.
Mother and her Seers constantly keep watch to ensure our safety should one such self-seeking individual wish to cause us harm. They are not restrictive or brainwashing; rather, theirs is a responsibility to ensure the well-being of all of Praetoria. Our great Emperor Cole is no murderer or propagandist. His just acts in the past have served only to strike down those who would cause us destruction; the Hamidon and its abominations among them. In that same way, he is preparing to retaliate against the unprovoked attacks from Primal Earth, and he will not cease until the threat is put to rest. All hail Emperor Cole! |
Its necessity for the survival of every society is pure fabrication. The world itself has been brought to the point of a struggle for survival, that is indisputable, yet this collapse of society was brought on not by its own behavior, but because of the rise of the monstrosity that is the Hamidon. In short, sir, your arguments does not hold.
"When a man decides that his personal needs or desires outweigh those of his neighbors, he is heading down a dangerous path of mistakes and misguided effort." I could not agree more. And yet, this is what we see, a principle, a desire brought to fruition before us, in every waking moment. A man's need for absolute power over others. A man's desire for perpetual glorification, in thought, deed and action. What would happen, do you think, if one thought that Emperor Marcus Cole was less than a perfect leader? What would happen to this man, do you think, were he to voice his opinion? Not in public, not shouting it from the rooftops, but merely overheard by someone who does not care for such sentiment? Would this man, no terrorist or agitator he, without criminal intent, be allowed to continue holding such sentiment? Or would he be made to disappear, for daring to question? And if so, is failure of unwavering adoration toward those who demand it not an everlasting hallmark or tyranny?
The Seers are here to protect us. How true indeed, for we need protecting from the chaos they themselves foster. For it is their suffocation of thought that gives rise to the very destructive forces that threaten the innocent the Seers hold under their thumb. For without the crime of defiant thought, what need would there be for defiance? And thus Mother ensures that that no self-seeking individual may wound Praetoria - no individual without the wherewithal to keep that wound open for as long as it serves them.
Indeed, Cole is no murderer. No evidence remains to point to the blood on the Emperor's hands. No government remains to offer its leadership in his stead. Besides, the time to do so is long since past, with so many to do so on his behalf. The police, above the law themselves, with no need for trial or evidence. Mother Mayhem, like a butcher culling the prime specimens of her herd. And it takes but a short trip underground to see the fruits of the Praetors' labors, though they may be the last thing you will see.
All hail Emperor Cole. And all must hail him. Or perish.
Quote:
I'm disgusted by neither group. What I have found absolutely intriguing about these discussions is the complete disconnect from the real world that many of you seem to have. Both of the extremes of Praetoria exist RIGHT NOW on this planet. Men who have schools named after them and statutes celebrating their accomplishments have done things more horrific than anything in these arcs. |
Originally Posted by Noxilicious
The funny thing about Praetoria is that you cannot go through it without being disgusted by both sides if you're an actually moral person. After the hundreth time watching a Resistance Crusader gun down civilians in a drug-dazed stupor you decide to become a Loyalist instead only to turn around again after seeing Praetoria's justice system up-close.
|
I favor the Resistance side because I do not see them as sociopaths. Their cause is just like many revolutionaries in the past. I feel their methods are very extreme and only justified under the narrowest circumstances.
By contrast, I think the Loyalists are probably the less "cruel" side. But they are wrong. They take reprehensible actions for all the wrong reasons. So to me it's more like this: Do you join the Resistance and do horrific acts in service of a most just cause or do you join the Loyalists and do less horrific acts in the cause of slavery and oppression.
No disgust here, because I recognize that people have had to make these choices for most of human history. It's only because of our modern society that we have the luxury of being disgusted by these acts. In other parts of the world and in our own recent past, we would be making these choices ourselves.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Quote:
Agreed. Whatever my point of view on the Praetoria situation, this sniping back and forth is ruining the thread. I have missed half the posts on this thread due to the ignore function. |
Originally Posted by Chyll
<aside> I wish everyone was able keep from cluttering threads that appreciates all aspects of the stories and character opportunities in the game like this was some sort of PvP arena.</aside> |
The devs wrote some nice stories. In some ways, much Redside should have been more like this. Take the Burke/Kalinda debacle. At the end of Mercy Island, there really was no choice to either contact. They all the same. It would have been nice to have that schism that exists in Praetoria.
Is Cole a good guy? No. But as historians have learned, and I was reminded from a friend, a good Ruler is not a good man. A good Ruler need make decisions that a good man would not.
Quote:
Yes, you do get the traitor speech. Which was a bit silly for my Powers guy as he did the leaving mission directly after the final powers path mission.
|
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
The speech the OP is referring to is at the end of the Power arc, when the moral choice is literally between "do what the Emperor commanded to protect the people from Neuron's insanity" and "blow it all up for the lolz and impress the Resistance". When you call the Emperor and do as he asked, you see the hero that Emperor Cole once truly was shining through.
I suppose if you then went to Paragon City, you would probably still get the traitor speech, though. |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
An on-topic post for me.
When I first met the Emperor himself at the end of the Powers Arc, I loved it. Every second I was talking to him, every moment I was in his presence, I knew I had earned my place in Praetoria. GG just needs to warm up to Cole, he's no Tyrant, he's just stressed from work. Personally, I hope Cole teaches the Resistance and Primal Earth a first-class lesson in annihilation.
*sips Enriche, does the Praetorian Salute* All hail Emperor Cole!
Username: @Royal
The Alien Tyrant, 357388: Stop the reign of an evil emperor!
Spawning Chaos, 469020: Form an army of Freaks, win the Freaklympics!
The Restarian Front, 363257: Stop the invasion of an alien fleet from another galaxy!
My first live character despised the Praetorian government by the time he finished the Power arc but the moment he met Cole, he turned into a a melty fanboy and almost drank the extra strength Enriche.
The Neutropolis Responsibility arc cured him.
It's funny though, while I tend to favor the Wardens, I have, so far, created Loyalists coming out of the tutorial (I usually flip twice during my sojurn in Nova Praetoria (ito take out Reese and Jackhammer they can't be allowed to survive in "my world."
I also choose loyalist because I like being able to talk to Marchand for more options. I'll eventually do something similar for Resistance, but I just don't remember coming across that many phone home options.
Quote:
A tyrant is never a good ruler |
Originally Posted by BlackArachnia
Is Cole a good guy? No. But as historians have learned, and I was reminded from a friend, a good Ruler is not a good man. A good Ruler need make decisions that a good man would not.
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
Punching him repeatedly in the face would be a good warm up routine |
Originally Posted by The Hound
GG just needs to warm up to Cole
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Even in your primitive, barbaric Primal Earth, do you not elect your leaders to govern those who elected them? To select from their ranks a champion to place into a position of greatness? This behavior is, by your own admission, fostering tyranny, though I presume you will decide in disagreement.
Though as I observe your world from my objective vantage point, I see your presidents and prime ministers acting on behalf of only a fraction of the people they pretend to serve. Theirs is an agendum of political merit; to use their influence as provided by their election to impose petty laws on the population in total, all too often to be met with bitter opposition and to nonetheless proceed in their endeavors.
Is this not tyrannical, quarrelsome and otherwise disruptive to the well-being of the people as a whole? It seems to me that your own world cannot even come to agreement on such simple issues, yet you feel the entitlement to point to ours and claim our Emperor to be a tyrant.
This prejudice is inherent in your kind, and you have actively struck out against us in a form of misplaced vengeance for the perceived wrongs of the people of our world. You are beasts, the lot of you, and fitting of the Primal name.
Emperor Cole's victory over your world will be most majestic indeed.
For Praetoria!