Emperor Cole at the end of the Power Loyalist Arc...
By
AnElfCalledMack,
Posted on: 2010-09-20 14:19 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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I say this in a spirit of honest confusion: I wasn't aware that the Syndicate was created by the state.|
Originally Posted by Venture
Helps, but not much. The real problem is that not once in the 20 levels do you ever fight or even see a threat to Praetoria that was not created by the State.
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I do agree with your larger point - that the conflicting factions in Praetoria are generally either directly working for the state, directly working against the state, or a side effect of that conflict. It would be nice to have some ordinary greedy people, although the Syndicate seems to be this. It would also be nice to resolve the question of whether the Devouring Earth continue to be a threat, because if the DE turn out to be a falsified threat then I feel this detracts enormously from the scenario as presented.
My personal feeling is that popular media, particularly in the US, tends to shy away from any implication that the designated villains have a point, and tends to reconfigure morally ambiguous stories into ones where the designated villains are the sole source of all evil. For instance, the film adaptation of V for Vendetta implicates the leaders of fascist England in causing the crisis that precipitates their rise to power; the original graphic novel takes the much more disturbing tack that the crisis was unrelated and that the people of England voluntarily chose fascists to lead them - and worse, that the alternative that V offers is not a populist restoration of democratic rule but rather a violent, bloody, anarchic revolution against a backdrop of dire and desperate circumstances that have not been resolved.
In short: if Praetorian Hamidon isn't real, then Going Rogue is V the Movie and I am disappoint.
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
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Well, Tyrant's making good progress with that aim |
Originally Posted by BenRGamer
could very well kill almost everyone in Praetoria
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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In the retconned MJ and Tina arcs you can see them on some of the mission maps - but they're no different to the Primal Earth ones.|
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
I say this in a spirit of honest confusion: I wasn't aware that the Syndicate was created by the state.
I do agree with your larger point - that the conflicting factions in Praetoria are generally either directly working for the state, directly working against the state, or a side effect of that conflict. It would be nice to have some ordinary greedy people, although the Syndicate seems to be this. It would also be nice to resolve the question of whether the Devouring Earth continue to be a threat, because if the DE turn out to be a falsified threat then I feel this detracts enormously from the scenario as presented. |
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My personal feeling is that popular media, particularly in the US, tends to shy away from any implication that the designated villains have a point, and tends to reconfigure morally ambiguous stories into ones where the designated villains are the sole source of all evil. For instance, the film adaptation of V for Vendetta implicates the leaders of fascist England in causing the crisis that precipitates their rise to power; the original graphic novel takes the much more disturbing tack that the crisis was unrelated and that the people of England voluntarily chose fascists to lead them - and worse, that the alternative that V offers is not a populist restoration of democratic rule but rather a violent, bloody, anarchic revolution against a backdrop of dire and desperate circumstances that have not been resolved. In short: if Praetorian Hamidon isn't real, then Going Rogue is V the Movie and I am disappoint. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Yes, because 99% of everyone being alive and well cared for is definitely him killing everyone, and it's DEFINITELY better if we went the way of the Resistance and 99% of everyone wound up being dead. They're obviously the heroes here, only wanting anarchy and death for all.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Well, Tyrant's making good progress with that aim
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I note that if Cole actually wants to kill everyone in Praetoria, if that is his sole and explicit aim, then he's got a really weird way of going about it. I mean, he can go switch off the sonic fence if he wants to, or just start beating people to death with his bare hands. He is the sole Incarnate of Praetoria; he can survive nuclear weapons and the Hamidon; who's going to stop him?
Which, incidentally, also kind of throws over the entire idea of revolution against the state. When you have a physical god for a dictator, the will of the people is completely irrelevant. Even if every Praetorian took up arms against Cole, there's no guarantee that they could kill him. About the only tactic that has a chance of working is a threat of mass suicide, gambling on the hope that given the choice between maintaining power over a city of corpses and stepping down but keeping his people alive, Cole would choose the latter. Because if that doesn't hold, you're screwed any way you look at it.
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
Quote:
One alternative might be to try and get help from another dimension where there were people just as powerful as Tyrant |
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
I note that if Cole actually wants to kill everyone in Praetoria, if that is his sole and explicit aim, then he's got a really weird way of going about it. I mean, he can go switch off the sonic fence if he wants to, or just start beating people to death with his bare hands. He is the sole Incarnate of Praetoria; he can survive nuclear weapons and the Hamidon; who's going to stop him?
Which, incidentally, also kind of throws over the entire idea of revolution against the state. When you have a physical god for a dictator, the will of the people is completely irrelevant. Even if every Praetorian took up arms against Cole, there's no guarantee that they could kill him. About the only tactic that has a chance of working is a threat of mass suicide, gambling on the hope that given the choice between maintaining power over a city of corpses and stepping down but keeping his people alive, Cole would choose the latter. Because if that doesn't hold, you're screwed any way you look at it. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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The Syndicate is composed of psychics trying to avoid becoming first Borg drones and then Tilman's lunch.| I say this in a spirit of honest confusion: I wasn't aware that the Syndicate was created by the state. |
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| In short: if Praetorian Hamidon isn't real, then Going Rogue is V the Movie and I am disappoint. |
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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Maybe they just like the uniforms?
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Originally Posted by Venture
I don't think that Praetoria measures up as a scenario rife with moral ambiguity but I also don't think it was ever really intended to. The devs did say, flat out, that Tyrant is the bad guy and his regime is evil. I have no idea where the Draco in Leather Pants style admiration is coming from and/or why some people are so hell-bent on trying to show the brownshirts of a fascist state in a positive light.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Praetoria is not large or dense enough to hold millions of people. Hyperbole for the lose. And Cole's reach and evil extends far past the capital city. You all ignore the terror that's not staring you in the face and denounce the Crusaders because they get their hands dirty.
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Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms
Remember, EvilGeko has thrown in with the Crusaders. If he's OK with them killing millions, then Cole killing thousands probably doesn't phase him.
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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I don't know about you, but I'm thinking (at least in that toon's storyline) that it'll be MY Praetorian after I get all my Incarnate slots and then go back to kick his spandex covered hiney. |
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
I note that if Cole actually wants to kill everyone in Praetoria, if that is his sole and explicit aim, then he's got a really weird way of going about it. I mean, he can go switch off the sonic fence if he wants to, or just start beating people to death with his bare hands. He is the sole Incarnate of Praetoria; he can survive nuclear weapons and the Hamidon; who's going to stop him?
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Except the armed insurrection going on in the streets.|
Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms
No wars,
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| no crime (to speak of), |
Maybe if we ignore that.
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| no economic crisis, no menial labor, no hunger issue |
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| no homelessness issue (hard to have that with a severely lessened populous. |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Arachnos and Longbow both invade Praetoria in different parts of the story; Longbow being all Golden Girl and trying to tell everyone that Emperor Cole is evil no matter what actual logic you may use, and Arachnos legitimately trying to destroy the place since there's no Lord Recluse there.|
Originally Posted by Venture
Helps, but not much. The real problem is that not once in the 20 levels do you ever fight or even see a threat to Praetoria that was not created by the State.
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Play the game, get informed, then make statements.
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The point remains, Cole's ultimate goal is the preservation of Humanity, much like animals in the zoo. The Crusaders are willing to cast the entire city into the abyss.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Praetoria is not large or dense enough to hold millions of people. Hyperbole for the lose. And Cole's reach and evil extends far past the capital city. You all ignore the terror that's not staring you in the face and denounce the Crusaders because they get their hands dirty.
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The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
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No - he's stripped the humanity from the people - he just wants to rule over robots, not people |
Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms
The point remains, Cole's ultimate goal is the preservation of Humanity, much like animals in the zoo.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Primal Earth forces are involved in Praetoria because of Praetorian attacks on Primal Earth. With an infinite number of parallel worlds, Primal Earth has neither the resources nor desire to meddle in any of them arbitrarily.| Arachnos and Longbow both invade Praetoria in different parts of the story; Longbow being all Golden Girl and trying to tell everyone that Emperor Cole is evil no matter what actual logic you may use, and Arachnos legitimately trying to destroy the place since there's no Lord Recluse there. |
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| Play the game, get informed, then make statements. |
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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Won't argue that. He's still trying to make sure the species doesn't go extinct. I honestly can't say the same for the Crusaders.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
No - he's stripped the humanity from the people - he just wants to rule over robots, not people
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The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
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I'm sure all the parades must make up for it though - all those uniformed ranks marching with minimal knee movement, the flags, the speeches, the calls for sacrifice, duty, discipline and obedience to the Emperor - plenty of things to excite the loyalists.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Except the armed insurrection going on in the streets.
Well, there is the psychic mafia, the insane disembodied psychic, the anarchist throwing molotov cocktails in the street, the corrupt brutal police, the shadow war between two Praetors. Maybe if we ignore that. Except for ALL the areas outside the capital. Except for the homeless people in the underground running from ghouls trying to stay alive. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Sure...that's why he plans to start a war to subjugate a dimension that hasn't done anything other than repel HIS unjustified attack. |
Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms
The point remains, Cole's ultimate goal is the preservation of Humanity, much like animals in the zoo. The Crusaders are willing to cast the entire city into the abyss.
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But in any event, a life as an animal in his zoo isn't a life worth living. Better the human race on Praetoria die off than that fate.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Essentially you're flipping over the chessboard because you didn't win in three moves.
Make no mistake, I do not condone Tyrant's actions, but as long as humanity survives, there is a chance to free them WITHOUT killing them. Once you've murdered everyone the game is over.
The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
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Actually, he's trying to wipe out humanity and replace it with a population of soulless drones - Tyrant fears and despises human beings for being human.|
Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms
Won't argue that. He's still trying to make sure the species doesn't go extinct.
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| I honestly can't say the same for the Crusaders. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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So, you are OK with them killing everyone in that city? That's an acceptable idea for you?|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Actually, he's trying to wipe out humanity and replace it with a population of soulless drones - Tyrant fears and despises human beings for being human.
They don't seem to be attacking the places outside Praetoria where other humans live |
EDIT: Actually, I have a question for the Crusader supporters. Let's say your plans succeed, and Utopia city is now a smoldering shell, and everyone inside is dead. How, exactly, is any of this supposed to destroy Cole's empire, when he can simply fly to the next largest populated city on the planet, and ask for greater controls over the populous, to prevent the tragedy which has just happened from repeating itself?
Cole himself is OK with letting Arachnos waste a third of his city because he can use it to further demonize the Resistance. Your characters have to disobey his orders to prevent the destruction from happening. So, how is the great Crusader plan supposed to work if it's NOT genocide?
The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
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You're OK with a mad dictator attacking the people of Primal Earth? Because that's going to lead to the destruction of Praetoria as sure as anything the Crusaders do.
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Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms
So, you are OK with them killing everyone in that city? That's an acceptable idea for you?
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Hell no. I've said repeatedly that Cole is not in the right. But that does not justify genocide. Nothing does.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
You're OK with a mad dictator attacking the people of Primal Earth? Because that's going to lead to the destruction of Praetoria as sure as anything the Crusaders do.
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The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
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See here for my position on Crusader tactics:|
Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms
So, you are OK with them killing everyone in that city? That's an acceptable idea for you?
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http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...7&postcount=27
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
In regards to the choice between Loyalists and the Resistance... I prefer stability to the suicidal Resistance.
As I've mentioned in another thread, if the Resistance wins, humanity loses.
Calvin Scott has no plans for after the war, it says as much in his bio that he'll let the whole world burn if it'll get his wife back. The Resistance constantly try to sabotage the power supply (which would in turn take out the Sonic Shielding keeping Hamidon at bay and dooming much of the population)
Evil Geko keeps saying that it's 'like real world today' except, I don't recall reading about 90% of the population being gone in the real world. Like I've said elsewhere, that's a gamechanger, with the population that low and enemies at the gates, the instability of a civil war (which would wreck the infrastructure of that one-city state), could very well kill almost everyone in Praetoria, no matter whether it's even successful or not.