Emperor Cole at the end of the Power Loyalist Arc...
By
AnElfCalledMack,
Posted on: 2010-09-20 14:19 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Quote:
This is exactly why I made one character in Praetoria and will never make another there. I play this game to escape the real world, not to relive it in my off-time. I WANT to play somewhere where everything is black or white, good or evil, and wallow in either one, depending on my mood at the moment. While I'll admit that the writing and arcs were top-notch, their ability to "mimic" the true-life happenstances occurring all around us has turned me off from Praetoria forever. |
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
I'm disgusted by neither group. What I have found absolutely intriguing about these discussions is the complete disconnect from the real world that many of you seem to have. Both of the extremes of Praetoria exist RIGHT NOW on this planet. Men who have schools named after them and statutes celebrating their accomplishments have done things more horrific than anything in these arcs.
I favor the Resistance side because I do not see them as sociopaths. Their cause is just like many revolutionaries in the past. I feel their methods are very extreme and only justified under the narrowest circumstances. By contrast, I think the Loyalists are probably the less "cruel" side. But they are wrong. They take reprehensible actions for all the wrong reasons. So to me it's more like this: Do you join the Resistance and do horrific acts in service of a most just cause or do you join the Loyalists and do less horrific acts in the cause of slavery and oppression. No disgust here, because I recognize that people have had to make these choices for most of human history. It's only because of our modern society that we have the luxury of being disgusted by these acts. In other parts of the world and in our own recent past, we would be making these choices ourselves. |
I deal with real life 23 hours a day; let me play "make-believe" for just one to keep my sanity...
Quote:
I think the devs would prefer you to turn against him - it makes it much easier for making new content |
Originally Posted by Charcoal_EU
There should be another dialogue 'path' in the final meeting where the character can agree with Cole and promise to side with him when the invasion starts. Perhaps even working under cover until then.
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
Would make for an awesome twist on future Praetorian missions, though. Imagine if the Praetorian arcs in PI recognised your character as an undercover Loyalist? That'd be a pretty nice detail.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
I think the devs would prefer you to turn against him - it makes it much easier for making new content
|
Like how the Dark Watcher comments on meeting you again if you do either the Responsibility or Warden arc followed by the other. I got a "Weren't you with the Loyalists last we spoke? Interesting..." from him.
But yeah, in the interest of making it simpler, it probably is better that all characters come out of Praetoria opposing Cole. Paragon City and the Rogue Isles just aren't set up to run the whole Praetorian thing.
Aegis Rose, Forcefield/Energy Defender - Freedom
"Bubble up for safety!"
Quote:
That and I'm pretty sure from Castle's cryptic posts that Cole is a raid boss! |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
I think the devs would prefer you to turn against him - it makes it much easier for making new content
|
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Quote:
Very fair criticism IMO. I think some of the people who get revolted by the Crusaders are reacting to the realism of Praetoria. Surely we do similar things in the Rogue Isles, but with the cartoony nonsense that is CoV removed it doesn't feel so good. |
Originally Posted by Partsman
This is exactly why I made one character in Praetoria and will never make another there. I play this game to escape the real world, not to relive it in my off-time. I WANT to play somewhere where everything is black or white, good or evil, and wallow in either one, depending on my mood at the moment. While I'll admit that the writing and arcs were top-notch, their ability to "mimic" the true-life happenstances occurring all around us has turned me off from Praetoria forever.
I deal with real life 23 hours a day; let me play "make-believe" for just one to keep my sanity... |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Quote:
Yeah, his removal from the Maria Jenkins arc, and all the hype about how powerful he is really smells like a future Raid Boss. Him and Praetorian Hamidon. I bet we're going to fight both during the Incarnate arcs.
|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
That and I'm pretty sure from Castle's cryptic posts that Cole is a raid boss!
|
Aegis Rose, Forcefield/Energy Defender - Freedom
"Bubble up for safety!"
Man. As soon as this thread started, BAM, it got GG'd. Didn't even have a chance.
Although the game is very clearly set up for the dimensional war to be Primal Earth = player side, Paretoria = enemy NPCs, I think it'd still be possible for the devs to add some more content for the stormtrooper types who wanted to keep serving Tyrant, even if it wans't on the same scale as the standard anti-Tyrant content.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
Tougher than Reichsman? |
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
That and I'm pretty sure from Castle's cryptic posts that Cole is a raid boss!
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
I'm aware of all of the above. I suppose it wasn't entirely clear from my first post that I was expressing a contrasting experience, and not a contrasting opinion on the same experience, but rest assured I did read the information presented to me (amazing, I know!) and did realize that acting as my character did for the stability of Praetoria was against the expressed orders of Emperor Cole. However, what I did not make clear in my OP was that the character I was playing so thoroughly believed in the Emperor's public image that when presented with evidence that the Emperor would allow Praetoria to come to harm, or invade an innocent dimension wholesale rather than accept badly-needed aid, she simply refused to believe any of it. Instead she snapped her Occam's Razor over her knee, and constructed a barely-plausible theory of rogue elements in the government acting without Cole's knowledge or sanction. |
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
Loyalist -> Hero is not actually the Responsibility path, and choosing "Hero" is not choosing "Loyalist". If you listen to what Marchand tells you before you make that choice, choosing to go to Paragon City is choosing to oppose the Emperor's invasion and support the people of Primal Earth (by standing as an example that not all Praetorians are evil).
The speech you get from Cole when you step out of the Rift Enclosure into Paragon City is not the speech the OP is talking about. Throughout the Responsibility path, you have been expressing your loyalty to Praetoria and to Provost Marchand, not to Emperor Cole (the penultimate Responsibility mission, when you and Kang gang up on Arachnos to save Neutropolis, is expressly against the orders of the Emperor). After that, even if you put down Kang because he has snapped and wants to join the anarchists now, choosing to follow Marchand's path over the Emperor's is most definitely being a traitor to the Emperor. Whether that makes you a traitor to what matters to you is up to you. The speech the OP is referring to is at the end of the Power arc, when the moral choice is literally between "do what the Emperor commanded to protect the people from Neuron's insanity" and "blow it all up for the lolz and impress the Resistance". When you call the Emperor and do as he asked, you see the hero that Emperor Cole once truly was shining through. I suppose if you then went to Paragon City, you would probably still get the traitor speech, though. |
Which is why the Emperor's speech, in which he confirms that the invasion plans do indeed originate from him, was so unpleasant for her.
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
Quote:
Bah, I just wanna see the world burn, Cole is just to much of straight jacket, not a fun guy at all |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
I find insane mass-murdering god-emperors with messiah compexes a very dark shade of gray - the kind of gray that's so dark it's black
|
------->"Sic Semper Tyrannis"<-------
Quote:
I liked that bit too. I'm still not too sure whether I'd side with Cole or not if I had only 1 character. Cole himself doesn't seem that bad, and at least he has a noble goal in mind. Most of the Praetors are crackpots though, if not full blown psychopats. I like White, at least he's honest. But Duncan is way off the deep end. She's a sadist and a sociopath, real serial killer material.|
Originally Posted by Progressman
... is my favorite ending of a story arc in the game.
http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Neuron#Aid_the_Loyalists I couldn't imagine bringing myself to side with the Resistance after this. "Too many have already forgotten how hubris nearly destroyed us all." |
What I found dissapointing about that arc though, was the actual fight with The Olympian. You get warned that he's going to be a challenge and that you need to bring friends. I was thinking "Yippie, solo EB fight!". I like those. I enter the mission and discover that he's just a lieutenant ... 10 seconds and 1 Assassins strike later and the mission's over. Anticlimax.
@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
Quote:
Good post. I agree and have tried to explain the same thing to people before on teams before. |
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
I'm disgusted by neither group. What I have found absolutely intriguing about these discussions is the complete disconnect from the real world that many of you seem to have. Both of the extremes of Praetoria exist RIGHT NOW on this planet. Men who have schools named after them and statutes celebrating their accomplishments have done things more horrific than anything in these arcs.
I favor the Resistance side because I do not see them as sociopaths. Their cause is just like many revolutionaries in the past. I feel their methods are very extreme and only justified under the narrowest circumstances. By contrast, I think the Loyalists are probably the less "cruel" side. But they are wrong. They take reprehensible actions for all the wrong reasons. So to me it's more like this: Do you join the Resistance and do horrific acts in service of a most just cause or do you join the Loyalists and do less horrific acts in the cause of slavery and oppression. No disgust here, because I recognize that people have had to make these choices for most of human history. It's only because of our modern society that we have the luxury of being disgusted by these acts. In other parts of the world and in our own recent past, we would be making these choices ourselves. |
I believe that the loyalist path has some merit though, sacrificing the few for the safety of the many, sounds ok in theory. But what is done to the Seers for instance makes my stomach churn.
@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
TBH I'm with the Warden Resistance types: freedom, by force if necessary, but not at any cost. Staring into the abyss, stares back into you, whosoever fights monsters must avoid Lady Gaga references, that sorta thing.
Is it time for the dance of joy yet?
Quote:
Honestly, take out the Seers & Enriche and Cole looks a lot more reasonable. I think the devs put those things in (and made some of the Praetors completely despicable) precisely to show how horrific Cole's regime is.
|
Originally Posted by TrueMetal
Good post. I agree and have tried to explain the same thing to people before on teams before.
I believe that the loyalist path has some merit though, sacrificing the few for the safety of the many, sounds ok in theory. But what is done to the Seers for instance makes my stomach churn. |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Quote:
True. But characters could still promise to side with Cole, without actually doing it. 20+ levels is a long time. So it would make sense that blue siders would get into real heroism and reds would start to value their own power above all, even if they started out as loyalists.|
Originally Posted by McNum
<snip>
But yeah, in the interest of making it simpler, it probably is better that all characters come out of Praetoria opposing Cole. Paragon City and the Rogue Isles just aren't set up to run the whole Praetorian thing. |
What this game needs is a redside counterpart to the high level praetorian arcs where redside characters get to have some good clean 'fun' in praetoria. Would be a good way for ex-praetorians to show Cole that they will not serve him and are powerful enough to stand against his praetors and war walkers. And primal earth villains would do it because destruction and looting is its own reward.
I do not suffer from altitis, I enjoy every character of it.
Quote:
Blame her family - or her boyfriend - or maybe both.
|
Originally Posted by TrueMetal
But Duncan is way off the deep end. She's a sadist and a sociopath, real serial killer material.
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
Well, maybe not reasonable - but still a few less twirls on the moustacheometer - like there'd still be the mass murder, "disappearances", torture, propaganda, tightly controlled media and education and so on - so it'd still be an evil system, but not quite the over the top evil system that's shown right now.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Honestly, take out the Seers & Enriche and Cole looks a lot more reasonable. I think the devs put those things in (and made some of the Praetors completely despicable) precisely to show how horrific Cole's regime is.
|
And like I said earlier, Enriche and the drugged water supply take away the angle that a lot of people are genuinely happy with Tyrant and his dictatorship - if there was no drugging of the citizens, but they were still shown to support the fascist government, that would add a bit more gray to the setting.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
Helps, but not much. The real problem is that not once in the 20 levels do you ever fight or even see a threat to Praetoria that was not created by the State.
| Honestly, take out the Seers & Enriche and Cole looks a lot more reasonable. |
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
Quote:
Well, with 30% of the entire government budget going to the PPD and IDF, Tyrant probably feels he has to show the tax payers they're getting value for money |
Originally Posted by Venture
Helps, but not much. The real problem is that not once in the 20 levels do you ever fight or even see a threat to Praetoria that was not created by the State.
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
Remember, EvilGeko has thrown in with the Crusaders. If he's OK with them killing millions, then Cole killing thousands probably doesn't phase him.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Well, maybe not reasonable - but still a few less twirls on the moustacheometer - like there'd still be the mass murder, "disappearances", torture, propaganda, tightly controlled media and education and so on - so it'd still be an evil system, but not quite the over the top evil system that's shown right now.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
And like I said earlier, Enriche and the drugged water supply take away the angle that a lot of people are genuinely happy with Tyrant and his dictatorship - if there was no drugging of the citizens, but they were still shown to support the fascist government, that would add a bit more gray to the setting.
|
The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
Quote:
Don't forget keeping street gangs in dope. |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Wlel, with 30% of the entire government budget going to the PPD and IDF, Tyrant probably feels he has to show the tax payers they're getting value for money
|
Quote:
"A comprehensive welfare plan for war veterans" sounds better in any policy documents |
Originally Posted by Divus
Don't forget keeping street gangs in dope.
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
Bah!! I bet he stole the kill shot and took credit for the whole battle and had everyone that didn't play along dealt with.
|
Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
He saved us from the Hamidon. You think that was a hoax?
|
"All problems can be solved by throwing enough scrappers at it."
@Riez on Virtue, Protector, Champion, and Exalted server.
I do not suffer from altitis, I enjoy every character of it.