Going Rogue/Issue 18 - Patch notes for build 1850.201009101722.1T
By
Alpha-One,
Posted on: 2010-09-16 14:08 in The Global Training Room Test Server
Quote:
You're right, it's not a new thing.|
Originally Posted by James_Donner
Quote:
|
It's just that the Devs usually manage to do a better job pretending they don't approach things this way. *shrugs*
Loth 50 Fire/Rad Controller [1392 Badges] [300 non-AE Souvenirs]
Ryver 50 Ele� Blaster [1392 Badges]
Silandra 50 Peacebringer [1138 Badges] [No Redside Badges]
--{=====> Virtue ♀
Quote:
You are in a sad state of mind if you think that the devs removed the nukes becuase the nukes /themselves/ were an exploit that made it easier to beat thier so called "pet" (which is absurd thinking in it's self, CoP was clearly never a priority for them and they only put it back due to people wanting it back and then removed the most vital part of it, IoP theft >.>)
|
Originally Posted by Lothic
Really? You're taking that kind of childish tack with this?
Show me some proof that we are even talking about an exploit in the first place before you rudely insult people who question your point of view by presenting you with a valid point. I don't like Devs "making things up as they go" just because they can. Obviously they can label anything they want to be an exploit because they wield god-like power in this game. But simply being reactionary via calling something they didn't foresee to be an exploit is, like your response to me, an immature way to react to serious problem. |
Quote:
I haven't, but I've heard of the dilemma and the fact its usually just called off it is the Storm one, so I can sympathise.|
Originally Posted by B_L_Angel
You haven't gone against the storm AV yet have you ? Nukes, shivans, pets don't make it easy they make it possible. They also let ATs that aren't the best choice get on teams.
Just a prediction from my very cracked crystal ball here. The only data this change gives the devs will be, If teams get the storm AV they will reset the trial. |
Honestly if people would rather encounters designed around the assumption that everyone present has to have nukes and shivans in order to win then that is not something I will want to participate in, nor is it good design from a gameplay perspective. Nerf the temps and nerf the AV's to compensate, thats my opinion.
Also I don't think you can compare these temp powers to gadgets that Batman would use. These powers are not innate to characters they are something they acquire. To stick with the comparison, his gadget powers would be a secondary or a power pool. Not a temporary power.
LOL, I think it's funny reading that people think this was changed due to an exploit. There is no proof there was an exploit, this is just people that like to use the word exploit for anything the devs do to the game.
The only proof we have of anything is that the temp powers were removed. If it were an exploit, I'd think the temp power (nukes) would've be dealt with and handled long ago. If it's a certain exploit with the CoP, and nothing else, then it would be safe to say there is a problem with the trial not the nukes. So no, it wasn't an exploit. If it is an exploit, the devs think they may have fixed it but they didn't.
The devs removed the nukes because they didn't want 24 people taking advantage of the nukes and totally completing the trial in less than 10 minutes.
I've ran a CoP Trail the same way I ran it when the trial was introduced back in Issue 5, nothing has changed with the trail at all. We completed the trail in 12:14 with 3 full teams and we used nukes, shivans and whatever else we had. Not to do it as fast as we could, but to make sure we could complete it.
Future attempts resulted in the same thing only with faster times. The devs most likely felt the trial was being abused with nukes allowing people to complete it in under 10 minutes which made the trial trivial even more so the reward.
Even though we feel the rewards are total crap for that trial and they are! They feel the reward is of great value... lol So they needed to do something to make the trial more of the so called "Risk vs Reward" balance by removing the nukes.
That's my take on the subject. And I still think removing the ability of nukes was a bad choice for a fix. The devs always seem to take the easy way out when it comes to fixing things, at least that's the way I see it.
And for the record, I've yet to see a team defeat the Stormer in the CoP trial on Pinnacle. Even with Shivans, nukes and HVAS mechs. And many other temps. I guess the nukes aren't as broken as the devs think!
[B]Leading Badge Holder in the City of Community[/B]
Owner & Operator of...
[URL="http://www.vidiotmaps.com/"]Vidiotmaps.com[/URL] & [URL="http://www.badge-hunter.com/"]Badge-Hunter.com[/URL]
[URL="http://net-warrior.mybrute.com/"][B][SIZE=3][COLOR=darkorange]Challenge My Brute[/COLOR][/SIZE][/B][/URL]
Quote:
Castle fought for a long time to get the CoP back into the game. As to the "most vital part": the IoP powers morphed into temporary powers. Even then those powers are a bit more than they were with the IoPs.|
Originally Posted by Mattwo7
You are in a sad state of mind if you think that the devs removed the nukes becuase the nukes /themselves/ were an exploit that made it easier to beat thier so called "pet" (which is absurd thinking in it's self, CoP was clearly never a priority for them and they only put it back due to people wanting it back and then removed the most vital part of it, IoP theft >.>)
|
Base raiding and Base PVP is a whole other ball of wax.
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Lothic
The part that worries me about these nukes being considered "an exploit" by the Devs (if that is indeed what happened here) is that it leads us towards the "any legitimate usage of a power can be considered an exploit in any given situation" death-spiral.
My guess is that if any group of players spams several dozen copies of -any- power at -any- AV it's going to be a major overkill regardless. Is that necessarily the players' or power's fault? Does that mean any power could be banned if it's used enough times in one place? I just wish (for once) the Devs would fix a problem with the finesse of a scalpel instead of the hamfistedness of a sledgehammer. This power ban has all the hallmark smells of the Devs effectively telling us, "There's something going on we don't like but we don't really know how to fix the specific problem so let's just randomly nerf/ban stuff until it all goes away." |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Lothic
Show me some proof that we are even talking about an exploit in the first place before you rudely insult people who question your point of view by presenting you with a valid point.
I don't like Devs "making things up as they go" just because they can. Obviously they can label anything they want to be an exploit because they wield god-like power in this game. But simply being reactionary via calling something they didn't foresee to be an exploit is, like your response to me, an immature way to react to serious problem. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Mattwo7
You are in a sad state of mind if you think that the devs removed the nukes becuase the nukes /themselves/ were an exploit that made it easier to beat thier so called "pet" (which is absurd thinking in it's self, CoP was clearly never a priority for them and they only put it back due to people wanting it back and then removed the most vital part of it, IoP theft >.>)
|
But please tell us your theory about WHY this banning was done. If there is no exploit being dealt with (and again to be perfectly clear I, like you, never saw an exploit here myself) then what possible legitimate excuse can the Devs be using to justify this ban other than "we want it to take players 15 minutes to finish this trial instead of 10 minutes"? If THAT'S the only reason then I'd have to say that's a pretty moronic rationale. Obviously the Devs can do whatever they want to supposedly "balance" the game. But micromanaging our play choices to this level of making something just a "tiny bit" harder is laughably absurd. Don't the Devs have anything better to do?
Had the Devs found a REAL exploit to justify their actions with this I'm sure they would have been overjoyed with themselves. As it is I think they just decided to meddle with something just for the sake of meddling. And THAT's what I'm upset with. I think this kind of foolish tinkering establishes the precedent that the Devs simply won't bother to adequately consider the consequences the next time something like this comes up and it DOES make a real difference to players.
Loth 50 Fire/Rad Controller [1392 Badges] [300 non-AE Souvenirs]
Ryver 50 Ele� Blaster [1392 Badges]
Silandra 50 Peacebringer [1138 Badges] [No Redside Badges]
--{=====> Virtue ♀
Quote:
i know they are gonna up the rewards at some point, but by how much? and with removal of nukes will it be worth it then?
|
Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
I'd pretty much have faith (which could be incredibly silly of me but I'll run with it) that this change is a precursor towards upping the reward. They obviously don't want a repeat of the poor Eden trial and are trying to remove the Speed Run outliers before adding a proper reward.
|
I think the fact that the devs have NOT commented on the matter is proof enough it's an exploit. If it wasn't the CR team would already be here coving up the truth. Replacing logic with rage is a BAD idea
Quote:
Your statement is ridiculous. by your reasoning every change ever made to the game that was not specifically addressed by the Dev team would constitute an exploit. |
Originally Posted by Mattwo7
I think the fact that the devs have NOT commented on the matter is proof enough it's an exploit. If it wasn't the CR team would already be here coving up the truth (being of what you morons are thinking). Replacing logic with rage is a BAD idea
|
This is a snap reaction to a problem that doesn't exist. People are using nukes now because effective strategies for pugs haven't emerged yet and people are relying on the nukes. Someone at Paragon doesn't like that & is quick fixing a problem that doesn't exist.
Nobody wants to to use nukes to do this trial, they are a pain to collect even on toons that still dominate in warburg. People want an effective strategy that works and doesn't require cherry picking who can come along for the trial. With this nerf the devs are effectively saying no, we want you to use purpose built teams and screw everyone else.
This goes beyond just this trial because incarnate salvage is planned as part of the reward. The devs are directly excluding certain builds and ATs from full participation the the incarnate system because they will only get the salvage they will need by begging a mercy spot from a COP raiding group. Smells like more old LRSF antics to me.
"If a system can be exploited, it will be exploited. And if a developer thinks their system cannot be exploited, it'll be exploited like a new actress in her first porn movie." Sanya Weather MMORPG Examiner
Quote:
*giggles* thanks for posting that.
|
Originally Posted by Obscure Blade
Expression: Dissatisfaction. Rikti Fun: Not Permitted.
|
Friends don't let friends buy an ncsoft controlled project.
Quote:
I'm sorry but if nukes were banned, why not ban rad/rads and shivans? I think at the least rad/rads with proper builds can replace nukes rather well
|
Originally Posted by James_Donner
Your statement is ridiculous. by your reasoning every change ever made to the game that was not specifically addressed by the Dev team would constitute an exploit.
This is a snap reaction to a problem that doesn't exist. People are using nukes now because effective strategies for pugs haven't emerged yet and people are relying on the nukes. Someone at Paragon doesn't like that & is quick fixing a problem that doesn't exist. Nobody wants to to use nukes to do this trial, they are a pain to collect even on toons that still dominate in warburg. People want an effective strategy that works and doesn't require cherry picking who can come along for the trial. With this nerf the devs are effectively saying no, we want you to use purpose built teams and screw everyone else. This goes beyond just this trial because incarnate salvage is planned as part of the reward. The devs are directly excluding certain builds and ATs from full participation the the incarnate system because they will only get the salvage they will need by begging a mercy spot from a COP raiding group. Smells like more old LRSF antics to me. |
I had a feeling after reading the beta testing for the CoP Trial, that the trial itself was going to fall out of favor quickly after the initial runs upon the release of i19. There's still the problem of the AV attacking through it shield phase and rewards for it being pretty low. That being said, I'm sure glad I got my badges for the trial now.
I do think that provided that every person in the trial bring all of the Warburg nukes, that's 72 Warburg nukes, yes, they could cycle nukes and attack in such a fastion to take out the AV and the mobs in one, or more likely two shield phases. If this what the devs fear, well IMO those fears are misguided. In few PuG CoP's I have been in, I've brought Nukes once. Out of 24, maybe 7 at most had their nukes.
If the Devs can see some form of data about the CoP trials, that we the players aren't aware of, or they're monitoring the trials in someway to see that the majority of the CoP's are succeeding only by the use of Warburg nukes... well then doesn't that mean that the trial needs a fix? I can see the devs wanting something difficult accomplished without temps? and isn't that what Master runs are for? Being that this is more of a raid, than a Task Force, shouldn't there be a fix to give us the option?
I don't like the nerf, but it this case I don't hate it. Being that I can simply not do the CoP ever again, and so can the player base.
Quote:
I lol'd. I've done plenty of CoPs without nukes and many have been successful. Only a few of the initial attempts were failures and those were early attempts. God forbid we learn how to run a CoP without nukes. |
Originally Posted by ChaosAngelGeno
I had a feeling after reading the beta testing for the CoP Trial, that the trial itself was going to fall out of favor quickly after the initial runs upon the release of i19. There's still the problem of the AV attacking through it shield phase and rewards for it being pretty low. That being said, I'm sure glad I got my badges for the trial now.
I do think that provided that every person in the trial bring all of the Warburg nukes, that's 72 Warburg nukes, yes, they could cycle nukes and attack in such a fastion to take out the AV and the mobs in one, or more likely two shield phases. If this what the devs fear, well IMO those fears are misguided. In few PuG CoP's I have been in, I've brought Nukes once. Out of 24, maybe 7 at most had their nukes. If the Devs can see some form of data about the CoP trials, that we the players aren't aware of, or they're monitoring the trials in someway to see that the majority of the CoP's are succeeding only by the use of Warburg nukes... well then doesn't that mean that the trial needs a fix? I can see the devs wanting something difficult accomplished without temps? and isn't that what Master runs are for? Being that this is more of a raid, than a Task Force, shouldn't there be a fix to give us the option? I don't like the nerf, but it this case I don't hate it. Being that I can simply not do the CoP ever again, and so can the player base. |
Also while were at it they should nerf hamidon. How dare they make us have team sets up that require certain ATs. I believe all mitos should be vulnerable to all types of attacks and Hamidon shouldn't attack. In fact just give me free stuff without having to try and learn. I just want to smash away on my Awesome button. Captain Dynamic ftw.
I'll always be a "Champion" at heart. My server away from home.
"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." - Thomas Jefferson
"With great moustache comes great responsibility" - Zee Captain
Quote:
They use nukes on Justice to make Hami raids only 3 rounds. They aren't needed, but they help speed up the process. I fail to see how this is any different. You can succeed in the CoP without them, but taking the time to get nukes makes the trial go faster.|
Originally Posted by Horusaurus
I lol'd. I've done plenty of CoPs without nukes and many have been successful. Only a few of the initial attempts were failures and those were early attempts. God forbid we learn how to run a CoP without nukes.
Also while were at it they should nerf hamidon. How dare they make us have team sets up that require certain ATs. I believe all mitos should be vulnerable to all types of attacks and Hamidon shouldn't attack. In fact just give me free stuff without having to try and learn. I just want to smash away on my Awesome button. Captain Dynamic ftw. |
It would seem to me since Hami is worth 52 merits it would make more sense to not allow them there than in a Trial worth 6-8 merits and a random passive power.
What is the point of taking 30-45 minutes to get a One shot massive buff/debuff if you can't use it in a part of the game where it is most useful?
Level 50s: to many to remember at this point
There is one other thing that I really think is worth noting. If the devs ban nukes because it gives us the ability to do it to fast, isn't the time we save in the actual trial more than made up for by having to take the time to get the nukes?
If the members of the trial don't go and get nukes, they start and get it done in say 30 minutes. Isn't that the same as the members going to Warburg and spending 20 minutes getting nukes then doing the Trial in 10 minutes??
It's 30 minutes either way (the times are just placeholders but I don't think they are far off)
Level 50s: to many to remember at this point
Another thing to bring up is if it was the nukes were banned for making things go quicker, why not ban em on EVERY trial/tf/sf?
IMO the nuke's code was incompatible with CoP's code and as such a bug occurred and thus both systems were to blame.
Quote:
Sounds like the most reasonable explanation so far|
Originally Posted by Mattwo7
Another thing to bring up is if it was the nukes were banned for making things go quicker, why not ban em on EVERY trial/tf/sf?
IMO the nuke's code was incompatible with CoP's code and as such a bug occurred and thus both systems were to blame. |
. . . Ofcourse if that were the case one would hope that someone would say so and save all the rage that occurred in his thread.
Saying that would have been reasonable and is not really telling anyone of an exploit.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Quote:
Please explain what you mean by this. |
Originally Posted by Mattwo7
IMO the nuke's code was incompatible with CoP's code and as such a bug occurred and thus both systems were to blame.
|
and FYI regarding your previous quote, I was saying that if the devs let the players learn the trial better that, with time only pug and suboptimal teams will rely on the nukes. Such teams are typically going to made up of players just grabbing the badge who aren't likely to really Raid the COP trial. Any real raid group is not going to want to be relying on nukes because of the prep time it takes to have them. Such teams will be purpose built. However with the reward at only 6 merits and a temp its not likely that we will see very many hardcore groups raiding the COP like we see with hami until the incarnate system is in place. If the strategies developed by those groups does not filter down to the pugs then lots of casual players won't be getting their incarnate salvage.
I "think" the ban on nukes is the devs trying to jump start that learning process. I also think it will work eventually but in the mean time a lot of players are going to be shutout of the trial and feel some very serious resentment towards the devs. We are already seeing that even before it even happens.
That said would some of you folks that are talking about already doing nukeless raids start posting up some information about how you are doing it in the guides section.
"If a system can be exploited, it will be exploited. And if a developer thinks their system cannot be exploited, it'll be exploited like a new actress in her first porn movie." Sanya Weather MMORPG Examiner
Quote:
Every trial/tf/sf doesn't have up to 24 people flinging well placed nukes to fight a single AV.|
Originally Posted by Mattwo7
Another thing to bring up is if it was the nukes were banned for making things go quicker, why not ban em on EVERY trial/tf/sf?
|
Quote:
| IMO the nuke's code was incompatible with CoP's code and as such a bug occurred and thus both systems were to blame. |
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom (or freem?) fighter; just as one man's exploit is another man's feature.
Quote:
Then everyone would be exploiting it on live. The lack of any patch lately inc a live publish of THIS patch likely means they're fixing it BEFORE pushing it to live thus furthering my point.|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Sounds like the most reasonable explanation so far
. . . Ofcourse if that were the case one would hope that someone would say so and save all the rage that occurred in his thread. Saying that would have been reasonable and is not really telling anyone of an exploit. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by James_Donner
I "think" the ban on nukes is the devs trying to jump start that learning process. I also think it will work eventually but in the mean time a lot of players are going to be shutout of the trial and feel some very serious resentment towards the devs. We are already seeing that even before it even happens.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Fire_Away
It's just as likely that some dev (on an incognito account say) watched the CoP AV drop like a stone after a bunch of nukes and said "We can't have this.".
|
Remember, this is NOT SWG's dev team (CU/NGE). Our dev team makes an effort to listen to what the players want.
Quote:
You bet it is logical/reasonable. As much as I'm "pro dev team", there are many examples where the devs have stepped in quickly and drastically to "correct a perceived imbalance" in game play. Sometimes the "cure" is even worse than the "disease". |
Originally Posted by Mattwo7
Is that logical? Is that reasonable? Is it REALLY THAT likely?
Remember, this is NOT SWG's dev team (CU/NGE). Our dev team makes an effort to listen to what the players want. |
Not sure if you were in closed beta when the CoP was (re)introduced. If you were, you can gauge for yourself how much player comments/desires impacted the end result. I am not, unfortunately, at all surprised at what has happened since this went live.
Love the devs... but gotta call'em as I see'em.
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom (or freem?) fighter; just as one man's exploit is another man's feature.
Quote:
I never said it was a good idea. I said I think thats what their plan/goal/hope is.
| Please do tell me why that would be a good idea? The backlash so far would only get worse if this were true and pushed to live. |
"If a system can be exploited, it will be exploited. And if a developer thinks their system cannot be exploited, it'll be exploited like a new actress in her first porn movie." Sanya Weather MMORPG Examiner
Soooo, what, did the Shadow Shard sign a nuclear arms ban treaty with Primal Earth?
-STEELE =)
Allied to all sides so that no matter what, I'll come out on top!
Oh, and Crimson demands you play this arc-> Twisted Knives (MA Arc #397769)
Quote:
Then the Devs need to make encounters be more than HUGE REGEN and HUGE HIT POINTS. |
Originally Posted by Fire_Away
Every trial/tf/sf doesn't have up to 24 people flinging well placed nukes to fight a single AV.
It's just as likely that some dev (on an incognito account say) watched the CoP AV drop like a stone after a bunch of nukes and said "We can't have this.". |
I'm going to be honest right now. I'm going to try the end game content coming up, but if it's annoying/tedious/unrewarding and demands a ton of effort/planning/etc beyond say...a States/Recluse/Hami Raid I'm just going to run ITFs/Ouros for Merits.
I did the CoP once and haven't done it since I got the badges.
I'll likely do the same with anything new if the reward/time isn't efficient.
Questions about the game, either side? /t @Neuronia or @Neuronium, with your queries!
168760: A Death in the Gish. 3 missions, 1-14. Easy to solo.
Infinity Villains
Champion, Pinnacle, Virtue Heroes
So should the devs balance encounters with these powers in mind (i.e, making them required), or should they disable them and balance them without them? Personally, I think it should be the latter, but I guess people love farming their shivans.
Because that is the bigger picture which people seem to miss as they rant about "OH NO MY NUKES ARE GONE!"
Having said all that, the devs are also doing it wrong here. Make a decision based on the principle and stick to it. If you think that in principle Nukes and Shivans shouldn't be used as a cheap work around for difficult trials and TF's, then surely the devs should disabled across the board; not single out individual fights. This is just a ridiculous situation where it seems the devs are too afraid to make the right call and balance accordingly and so we are left with these silly exceptions.
You haven't gone against the storm AV yet have you ? Nukes, shivans, pets don't make it easy they make it possible. They also let ATs that aren't the best choice get on teams.
Just a prediction from my very cracked crystal ball here. The only data this change gives the devs will be, If teams get the storm AV they will reset the trial.