Going Rogue/Issue 18 - Patch notes for build 1850.201009101722.1T
By
Alpha-One,
Posted on: 2010-09-16 14:08 in The Global Training Room Test Server
Ok ok ok, so it was done with 45 seconds remaining, with nearly everyone dead and theres evidence of it being done once.
Thats hardly a proven method to do it reliably is it. Go on, scroll up, you'll find thats what I've been discussing in my posts...
additionally I notice that it was done redside, which if memory serves was discussed being easier on test due to the style of the Villain AT's. Now I know we can side switch but I would surmise that the trial would have gone over time if it were done Hero side.
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I think you already know that. Why should I? All the effort for a tiny buff? I'd rather grab accolades.|
Originally Posted by Kheldarn
Out of curiosity, have you run it yet?
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It amuses me that the /RP/ server is the one that's reportedly doing so well. Not that I'm saying I have any doubt of their ability what with it being my main server.
I can't but agree with Tsumiju, maybe across the pond with litterally hundreds of players on each server more than here in Europe can be easier to assemble a PuG or a SG CoP and play it several times per day, here in Europe have been several attempts both Defiant and Union (sorry for french and german servers, I can't speak for them as I have no chars there and I don't know their situation), with only a couple of success runs afaik.
I've been in 2, both in Defiant blueside, one of them I was one of the teamleaders (last night, in fact), and we gave up when we were 15 minutes to go no matter what we used, shivs, nukes, HVAS, Enchanment of Serafina and some other temp powers against that stupid bug "hohoho I got a pff that allows me to oneshot you while you can't even touch me" besides his insane regen and the incredibly high spawn rate.
I tend to agree with those of you that said "ok, if they disallow the nukes it's because some kind of exploit" but no one can say that we are wrong saying this is an impossible-to-do trial because at least here from the dozens of attempts in either Defiant of Union only 2 or 3 times it's been completed succesfully.
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That made me think of the irony of the fact that by the devs not saying we're wrong about it being an exploit because they can't say it IS one, pretty much would mean it is.
Honestly, having done it a bunch of times, removing the Nukes will really only take away some prep time. We only really use a couple of Bio nukes now, but they can easily be replaced by some extra Empaths. The damage nukes were for funs, and only 1 chem nuke ever did anything to Ruladek (did nothing to Lanaruu), which can be compensated by a few rads.
The strategy will be the same:
If it's Lanaruu (stormy) - wait for timer to run out, try again later
If it's Ruladek (red one) - 2 of the Empaths throw down RAs (I think that caps, maybe it's 3), beat up spawns, beat down Ruladek, 2 more empaths throw down RAs in the middle of fighting Ruladek, beat spawns, beat Ruladek. Easy peasy.
Of course, we'll only run it if people want the badge. The rewards are laughable.
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The part that worries me about these nukes being considered "an exploit" by the Devs (if that is indeed what happened here) is that it leads us towards the "any legitimate usage of a power can be considered an exploit in any given situation" death-spiral. |
Originally Posted by Mattwo7
That made me think of the irony of the fact that by the devs not saying we're wrong about it being an exploit because they can't say it IS one, pretty much would mean it is.
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My guess is that if any group of players spams several dozen copies of -any- power at -any- AV it's going to be a major overkill regardless. Is that necessarily the players' or power's fault? Does that mean any power could be banned if it's used enough times in one place? I just wish (for once) the Devs would fix a problem with the finesse of a scalpel instead of the hamfistedness of a sledgehammer. This power ban has all the hallmark smells of the Devs effectively telling us, "There's something going on we don't like but we don't really know how to fix the specific problem so let's just randomly nerf/ban stuff until it all goes away."
That is, as they say, a really crappy way to run a railroad...
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Like I said, it has been done on Champion (on both blueside and redside). So it hasn't been done 'just once' or 'just with villain ATs'. (Not that it matters much, since people are able to switch sides). I used Virtue as an example only because they have a good break down of the strat and the progress they made during the trial. You had asked for constructive information on how to succeed, and theirs was readily available. I'm sure more information will be available as other groups start to write up their experiences. |
Originally Posted by TsumijuZero
Ok ok ok, so it was done with 45 seconds remaining, with nearly everyone dead and theres evidence of it being done once.
Thats hardly a proven method to do it reliably is it. Go on, scroll up, you'll find thats what I've been discussing in my posts... additionally I notice that it was done redside, which if memory serves was discussed being easier on test due to the style of the Villain AT's. Now I know we can side switch but I would surmise that the trial would have gone over time if it were done Hero side. |
My impression from reading it was that things didn't go so great at first and consequently, people quit or what have you. They had to regroup and recruit more. That is why it took the full hour. The promising part about this recap is that once they did regroup, modified their strat and tried again, they were successful.
I'd like to quote the leader:
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Originally Posted by xeaon
I was really happy about our progress last night I was even careless to win or fail. But we did won, so its even better.
Our technique still needs to be tuned if you ask me, but it proved its efficacy. Having more ppl try and learn it, will better it, and as some point those CoP trial will become pretty easy I believe. |
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Amygdala's Guide to the Cathedral of Pain Trial
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I ask because IMO, if you haven't run it, you're not really in a position to talk about things like banning nukes from it. YMMV.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
Do you ask this because you do think it's worth its reward? Because I do not think it is even remotely worth the cat herding, even if you complete it in 10 minutes.
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As for me, 10 merits or a badge isn't enough to have made me want to run it yet. That places me outside the in-group who has run it, a group that is probably more likely to believe the encounter and rewards are OK. Still, it doesn't prove my decision not to run it, or my belief the encounter and rewards are uninteresting, are wrong.
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And as for the Warburg nukes, I look to the KISS principle. The nukes should follow one simple, rational rule. Usable everywhere. Or usable on Primal Earth in the present time. Or usable only in PvP. Or usable only in Warburg. Something you can put right in the nuke powers' description without confusing people too much.
Usable everywhere except CoP is simple, unless more exceptions get piled in. Problem is, it's not rational. The CoP exception is completely arbitrary. Put that in the nuke powers' description and there'll be a lot of scratching heads. Heck, it's just in test server patch notes, and there's already a lot of scratching heads.
Can I just say, I think hoarding up on temporary powers like Shivans, Nukes, HVACs really goes against the spirit of the game. CoX is the only game I know of that would accept such rampent misuse of powers in order to bypass the tactics/strategies needed to kill an encounter; where tactics/strats are even necessary and its not just a mountain of regen to climb over. Seriously I would have expected these powers to have been shot down years ago.
So should the devs balance encounters with these powers in mind (i.e, making them required), or should they disable them and balance them without them? Personally, I think it should be the latter, but I guess people love farming their shivans.
Because that is the bigger picture which people seem to miss as they rant about "OH NO MY NUKES ARE GONE!"
Having said all that, the devs are also doing it wrong here. Make a decision based on the principle and stick to it. If you think that in principle Nukes and Shivans shouldn't be used as a cheap work around for difficult trials and TF's, then surely the devs should disabled across the board; not single out individual fights. This is just a ridiculous situation where it seems the devs are too afraid to make the right call and balance accordingly and so we are left with these silly exceptions.
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These items have all been in the game years. Their use IS considered an effective tactic or strategy. You can't hoard them because you can only carry one of each type. Please do a better job of explaining how using them is against the "Spirit of the game."
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Originally Posted by Peacemoon
Can I just say, I think hoarding up on temporary powers like Shivans, Nukes, HVACs really goes against the spirit of the game. CoX is the only game I know of that would accept such rampent misuse of powers in order to bypass the tactics/strategies needed to kill an encounter; where tactics/strats are even necessary and its not just a mountain of regen to climb over.
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Learn what an exploit is before posting BS
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Originally Posted by Lothic
The part that worries me about these nukes being considered "an exploit" by the Devs (if that is indeed what happened here) is that it leads us towards the "any legitimate usage of a power can be considered an exploit in any given situation" death-spiral.
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Originally Posted by Mattwo7
That made me think of the irony of the fact that by the devs not saying we're wrong about it being an exploit because they can't say it IS one, pretty much would mean it is.
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I can't say this too often, even if there is an exploit, that lets you finish the trial in one minute from the timer start, you will still come out behind every other thing you can do in the game.
Its just that grueling.
For me it's not a fun TF. I'll do it for the character badge once and once I have that, I never want to see it again.
I understand if there is an exploit in the TF which resulted in the decision to removes the nukes, however, the TF itself is a gigantic pain. With 24 people required odds are some of it will be PuG with the consequential additional cat herding that goes with that.
Those who are completing it in 15 mins I salute you but for those of us who are struggling with it NOW, removal of nukes without making it more enjoyable and less painful is very frustrating. We want new content as much as anyone but content which is FUN with a good chance of completion.
Even the 'we do it using brawl in 15 mins' groups are saying they reset if the Stormy aspect shows. So even the uber runners give up on one part of the TF. So what does that say about how difficult the rest of us are finding it?
CoX was always able to be played at different levels. The recent push towards ramping up the difficulty has gone a little too far in some parts. EG Reichsman HP, redside ambushes in Baracuda TF, ambush city in Praetoria, orange conning mobs in missions set -1 x1 and the fact that this TF is so much work for so little reward even if you can complete it (and many can't).
If you don't want nukes used - and I don't care why - fine. But change the TF so everyone - not just tight SGs with vent - have a good chance of successfully completing it. Otherwise you just wasted a load of time creating it. Same as AE.
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Apologies if you read that as directed at you personally, however the links referenced suggested only a redside trial with no mention of anything other than one redside attempt. Even with side switching I would say statisticially that there would be more Villains in a Redside attempt and vice versa so I would still factor in that information when discussing strategy as what works for one team makeup won't work for another.|
Originally Posted by Amygdala
Like I said, it has been done on Champion (on both blueside and redside). So it hasn't been done 'just once' or 'just with villain ATs'. (Not that it matters much, since people are able to switch sides). I used Virtue as an example only because they have a good break down of the strat and the progress they made during the trial. You had asked for constructive information on how to succeed, and theirs was readily available. I'm sure more information will be available as other groups start to write up their experiences.
My impression from reading it was that things didn't go so great at first and consequently, people quit or what have you. They had to regroup and recruit more. That is why it took the full hour. The promising part about this recap is that once they did regroup, modified their strat and tried again, they were successful. |
It's nice to get a reply that actually discusses said strategy etc.
I'm putting together an attempt this week, basing whats being discussed here I have a suggestion for consideration. Alongside HVAS use, would it be plausable to arrange all the ranged toons with -regen etc into a single formation between the willforges with a strategy thus:
The raid leader when assembling takes minimum 4 close in characters, and say 2 blasters + debuffs / support.
When attacking the AV, the 4 melee characters alternate between the AV and Rularuu spawns dependant on shield status, with the ranged characters holding the central area attacking the AV and spawns from that position. This would keep a buffed group, able to observe shield status and effect fire as required whilst also staying out of range of the nasty storm debuff the AV has.
Now this does mean that the strategy relies on the close range players being able to engage rularuu spawns quickly, and the ranged characters to be sensible enough to fire from position and choose targets wisely, however I do believe that the Storm powers of the AV are hindering a lot of the damage inflicted against the AV directly.
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"The flow of battle can only be influenced, not by realtime tactics, but by strategy."
Proud resident of the Union EU Server.
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Quote:
Thanks. I was wondering but did not want to look it up.|
Originally Posted by Leandro
Disruptor Blast (the third power of Mace Mastery for Controllers/Dominators) is an AOE.
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In that case, what about Power Boost instead of Focused Accuracy?
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
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Well first, I think if you read my post in its entirety then it is explained sufficiently. This is a game where you are meant to be playing as super heroes, not pokemon. It should be about your characters and the team, not who can "cheese" a fight with powerful temporary stuff. |
Originally Posted by James_Donner
These items have all been in the game years. Their use IS considered an effective tactic or strategy. You can't hoard them because you can only carry one of each type. Please do a better job of explaining how using them is against the "Spirit of the game."
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Second, it comes down to this:
Do you want the devs to develop and implement challenging end game content?
If no, then this doesn't apply to you.
If yes, then do you propose that all future end game content is balanced around the assumption that everyone has Shivans etc? Because that is what it will come to. I recognise these have worked for years now and that is a mistake of the devs, but I would suggest draw a line under that. Of course it is also the responsibility of the devs to make challenging fights and not just huge sacks of health with lots of regen.
P.S I'm not making accusations of people, it is perfectly legit to use these temp powers because that is how they are/were designed, but the design is wrong. That was my point.
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I don't consider the CoP to be endgame content. At all. Not with weak temp powers and a measly 10 merits (I somehow thought they had increased it to 20 since just about every tester in beta recommended this.)|
Originally Posted by Peacemoon
Well first, I think if you read my post in its entirety then it is explained sufficiently. This is a game where you are meant to be playing as super heroes, not pokemon. It should be about your characters and the team, not who can "cheese" a fight with powerful temporary stuff.
Second, it comes down to this: Do you want the devs to develop and implement challenging end game content? If no, then this doesn't apply to you. If yes, then do you propose that all future end game content is balanced around the assumption that everyone has Shivans etc? Because that is what it will come to. I recognise these have worked for years now and that is a mistake of the devs, but I would suggest draw a line under that. Of course it is also the responsibility of the devs to make challenging fights and not just huge sacks of health with lots of regen. P.S I'm not making accusations of people, it is perfectly legit to use these temp powers because that is how they are/were designed, but the design is wrong. That was my point. |
If in I19 they add something to it that permanently advances your character in some way, THEN I will agree that it can be categorized as endgame content, THEN I will agree that it's fine to ban temps from it. Now? NO.
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Really? You're taking that kind of childish tack with this?|
Originally Posted by Mattwo7
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Show me some proof that we are even talking about an exploit in the first place before you rudely insult people who question your point of view by presenting you with a valid point.
I don't like Devs "making things up as they go" just because they can. Obviously they can label anything they want to be an exploit because they wield god-like power in this game. But simply being reactionary via calling something they didn't foresee to be an exploit is, like your response to me, an immature way to react to serious problem.
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I'd pretty much have faith (which could be incredibly silly of me but I'll run with it) that this change is a precursor towards upping the reward. They obviously don't want a repeat of the poor Eden trial and are trying to remove the Speed Run outliers before adding a proper reward.
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Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master
i agree 100% with this, the difficulty for a PuG and the very low rewards, make it not worth doing
since i got the badge on my main, im not gonna touch the trial again till they start tying incarnate stuff to it |
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Thats an invalid argument for a superhero game. Many classic heroes relied on any number technologies to either gain or increase their powers. Your basically saying that Batman can't use his utility belt or Wonder Woman her lasso because they give them extra powers they would normally never have.
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Originally Posted by Peacemoon
Well first, I think if you read my post in its entirety then it is explained sufficiently. This is a game where you are meant to be playing as super heroes, not pokemon. It should be about your characters and the team, not who can "cheese" a fight with powerful temporary stuff.
Second, it comes down to this: Do you want the devs to develop and implement challenging end game content? If no, then this doesn't apply to you. If yes, then do you propose that all future end game content is balanced around the assumption that everyone has Shivans etc? Because that is what it will come to. I recognise these have worked for years now and that is a mistake of the devs, but I would suggest draw a line under that. Of course it is also the responsibility of the devs to make challenging fights and not just huge sacks of health with lots of regen. P.S I'm not making accusations of people, it is perfectly legit to use these temp powers because that is how they are/were designed, but the design is wrong. That was my point. |
"If a system can be exploited, it will be exploited. And if a developer thinks their system cannot be exploited, it'll be exploited like a new actress in her first porn movie." Sanya Weather MMORPG Examiner
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Power Boost is already in the Primal Forces Mastery and I think they are trying not to duplicate powers for the same AT in different pools.|
Originally Posted by ChaosExMachina
Thanks. I was wondering but did not want to look it up.
In that case, what about Power Boost instead of Focused Accuracy? |
I would instead ask for Shatter Armor, maybe.
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This isn't really a new thing.
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Originally Posted by Lothic
I don't like Devs "making things up as they go" just because they can. Obviously they can label anything they want to be an exploit because they wield god-like power in this game. But simply being reactionary via calling something they didn't foresee to be an exploit is, like your response to me, an immature way to react to serious problem. |
"If a system can be exploited, it will be exploited. And if a developer thinks their system cannot be exploited, it'll be exploited like a new actress in her first porn movie." Sanya Weather MMORPG Examiner
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Does this mean that the Heal Self IO will give a 20% chance to heal for each time it chains? Or is it still one check on the initial enemy?
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Originally Posted by Avatea
Patch notes for build 1850.201009101722.1T.
Invention
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Main Hero: Chad Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1396 Badges
Main Villain: Evil Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1193 Badges
Mission Architect arcs: Doctor Brainstorm's An Experiment Gone Awry, Arc ID 2093