Going Rogue/Issue 18 - Patch notes for build 1850.201009101722.1T
By
Alpha-One,
Posted on: 2010-09-16 14:08 in The Global Training Room Test Server
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Pretty sure that's the reason why. Trying to figure out in my head what the actual exploits are and I'm getting a few ideas.|
Originally Posted by Starjammer
QR
If they removed the Warburg option and won't say why -- exploit. |
I think CoP is another example where rewards = time fails. As far as I've been able to tell from my own server, it's either 15 minute perfect runs with well oiled SGs or the trial fails. The 15 minute runs are driving down the reward averages while the failures don't even get factored into the average.
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If that's the case, that's a fair reson to remove them. However, if they hadn't made it so stupid hard in the first place, there probably never would have been a Nuke Exploit...
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Originally Posted by Zamuel
Pretty sure that's the reason why. Trying to figure out in my head what the actual exploits are and I'm getting a few ideas.
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the trial itself isn't all that hard, it's just the AV PFF hax that makes it overly difficult, once that gets fixed (don't know why it hasn't yet) it'll be cake again.
My initial reaction to the low rewards for Cathedral of Pain was that they were low-balling the reward until they could see how we could break it. Im expecting this "nerf" is a step to fix the risk versus reward ratio on CoP.
I'm going to reserve judgment for now.
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I sure hope the data mining is more sophisticated than this. I'm guessing most failures don't stick around for the clock to reach 0:00 either. I don't do this thing a lot and I'm 2-1. On the failure, everyone dropped out with about 5 minutes to go, so if data mining is only including failures that reach 0:00, well, that's a failure too. I'm speculating that the data mining must be showing an average completion time in the neighborhood of 15 minutes, because, as mentioned above, you either finish it fast or you don't finish at all (my 2 "wins" were between 10 and 15 minutes). |
Originally Posted by Zamuel
Pretty sure that's the reason why. Trying to figure out in my head what the actual exploits are and I'm getting a few ideas.
I think CoP is another example where rewards = time fails. As far as I've been able to tell from my own server, it's either 15 minute perfect runs with well oiled SGs or the trial fails. The 15 minute runs are driving down the reward averages while the failures don't even get factored into the average. |
What's also not factored in (and I know you can't), is the time spent assembling the team. At this point, finding the right composition for all 3 teams takes more time than successfully executing the trial once the clock starts. That is, trading the Rad Def from team 1 for the Blaster on team 2, etc. One could do an ITF in the time spent before even entering the Trial instance.
I'm sure someone has an anecdote about their l33t SG needing 5 minutes to assemble and 10 minutes to win with, as mentioned above, Walk and Brawl. That's the outlier. Unfortunately I'm guessing for data mining purposes, that's showing up as the average.
Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)
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Anyone been on test yet? I would expect that this got silently fixed in the same patch that they take out warbug nukes from being used (which I find hilarious since warburg nukes can be used to speed just about every other TF and trail in the game . . . but hey somehow they are overpowering in this trial which only gives 20 merits as compared to Sister Psyche which gives what, 50? Just saying).|
Originally Posted by Mr. DJ
the trial itself isn't all that hard, it's just the AV PFF hax that makes it overly difficult, once that gets fixed (don't know why it hasn't yet) it'll be cake again.
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Cause fixing a major bug in the trail at the same time as you remove an option from player to use in the trail would only be fair and logical. Amirite?
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Well I know my VG is running the COP on Saturday, has this posted yet?
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The amount of prep time (organizing, forming teams, balancing teams, going over strategy if there are new people, and acquiring any temps if you used them) isn't factored either.
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Originally Posted by Zamuel
Pretty sure that's the reason why. Trying to figure out in my head what the actual exploits are and I'm getting a few ideas.
I think CoP is another example where rewards = time fails. As far as I've been able to tell from my own server, it's either 15 minute perfect runs with well oiled SGs or the trial fails. The 15 minute runs are driving down the reward averages while the failures don't even get factored into the average. |
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Woah, your CoP's are paying out 20 merits? Hax.
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
but hey somehow they are overpowering in this trial which only gives 20 merits as compared to Sister Psyche which gives what, 50? Just saying).
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As much as some posters are eating their own heads, gnashing against the Wailing Wall, or invoking the undead spirit of Jack, I will just say, in the simplest of terms, that I don't understand the reason behind this apparently arbitrary change. It's the first time that I can think of that a certain set of powers was explicitly banned from an encounter (besides the "Master of" challenges or Ouroboros challenges, of course).|
Originally Posted by Avatea
Tasks
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Would anyone with a red name care to elaborate. Not that I expect anyone to do so, of course
Also, corrected patch note below:
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Known Issue:
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Think this patch is still on test.
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Originally Posted by twelfth
Well I know my VG is running the COP on Saturday, has this posted yet?
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Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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Doesn't CoP only give 10 Reward Merits (or 6 with a personal Item of Power)?
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
... somehow [nukes] are overpowering in this trial which only gives 20 merits as compared to Sister Psyche which gives what, 50? Just saying.
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Main Hero: Chad Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1396 Badges
Main Villain: Evil Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1193 Badges
Mission Architect arcs: Doctor Brainstorm's An Experiment Gone Awry, Arc ID 2093
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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So how about them stalker pools?
Also lol at disabling warburg nukes.
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Another use of "median" times that doesn't take into account failed attempts.
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Originally Posted by Zamuel
Pretty sure that's the reason why. Trying to figure out in my head what the actual exploits are and I'm getting a few ideas.
I think CoP is another example where rewards = time fails. As far as I've been able to tell from my own server, it's either 15 minute perfect runs with well oiled SGs or the trial fails. The 15 minute runs are driving down the reward averages while the failures don't even get factored into the average. |
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I think the developers are fixing the wrong things:|
Originally Posted by StormSurvivor
I can kinda of see why this has changed, but I don't think this is the way to do it. It's true that it's rare for twenty-four players being availiable to stack the same power, but if players think it's that needed, it may be that the trial itself needs looking at, rather than hampering the method that players are using to beat it.
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Originally Posted by Lothic
The main problems with the CoP trial right now are that:
A) The AVs can shoot through their "affect only self" shields. This is an obvious bug that needs to be fixed. B) The AVs Regen rate is quite likely set way too high, especially on the "stormy" AV. |
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Originally Posted by Lothic
How does the restriction of an unrelated temp power affect those two things?
As long as these two problems exist Warburg nukes are almost REQUIRED to have a successful CoP trial. Now if the Devs plan to have the two actual problems fixed very soon after this "no Warburg nuke" patch goes in then maybe it'll work together as a multi-part solution to the balancing problem. With those two problems fixed Warburg nukes would (in all fairness) probably be overkill on the AV. |
Biological Payload: Maxes most/all of the player's regen rate to survive the damage that the AV+combined spawns can dish out and increases damage output. (PBAoE, Ally +Regeneration, +Dam)
Chemical Payload: Floors the AV's defences so the nukes deal full damage. (Ranged AoE Foe -Res(All), -DEF)
Nuclear Payload: Deals a whole bunch of direct damage in a single burst and reduces the AV's End and Recovery. (Ranged AoE, Extreme DoT(Energy), Foe -End, -Recovery)
Note that these could be considered to be working as Intended, but not when the developer's pet is getting its butt whipped. I hate GMs that have tantrums that their "baby" was taken out too easily.
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Originally Posted by The_Coming_Storm
=/ Are you sure the AVs' bubbles are bugged? They could just be Untouchable bubbles, not OAS bubbles. I like it that way.
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Originally Posted by Mr. DJ
the trial itself isn't all that hard, it's just the AV PFF hax that makes it overly difficult, once that gets fixed (don't know why it hasn't yet) it'll be cake again.
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Anyone been on test yet? I would expect that this got silently fixed in the same patch that they take out warbug nukes from being used (which I find hilarious since warburg nukes can be used to speed just about every other TF and trail in the game . . . but hey somehow they are overpowering in this trial which only gives 20 merits as compared to Sister Psyche which gives what, 50? Just saying).
Cause fixing a major bug in the trail at the same time as you remove an option from player to use in the trail would only be fair and logical. Amirite? |
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This was just stated so well and eloquently that I don't know how to say it any better.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
Yeah I'll have to agree that the "no Warburg nukes in the CoP Trial" change seems, when considered by itself, like a very random and nonsensical reaction from the Devs.
 The main problems with the CoP trial right now are that: A) The AVs can shoot through their "affect only self" shields. This is an obvious bug that needs to be fixed. B) The AVs Regen rate is quite likely set way too high, especially on the "stormy" AV. How does the restriction of an unrelated temp power affect those two things? As long as these two problems exist Warburg nukes are almost REQUIRED to have a successful CoP trial. Now if the Devs plan to have the two actual problems fixed very soon after this "no Warburg nuke" patch goes in then maybe it'll work together as a multi-part solution to the balancing problem. With those two problems fixed Warburg nukes would (in all fairness) probably be overkill on the AV. But that still raises the bigger question others have mentioned here: How can the Devs arbitrarily decide that a certain temp power will not be allowed in a given trial? That's almost like the first step towards forcing everyone to have to play the CoP Trial as if it were a "Master of CoP" Trial. I think this is a slippery slope the Devs are going to ultimately regret: having the OPTION to run a Master of CoP is one thing, FORCING people to run it that way is a very bad precedent to set. |
My feelings are if you didn't have an Archvillain that CHEATED, you wouldn't have people using nukes to overcome it. Firing through the force field and regen should have been fixed FIRST.
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the exploit being that the STUPID amount of regen given to an AV with a 45 second attack window can, unreliably, be overcome thus making the trial completeable without having to wire together 24 sg mates who live in the same basement and pvp each other all day for the perfect setups...|
Originally Posted by Starjammer
QR
If they removed the Warburg option and won't say why -- exploit. |
thats a really retarded change and I fully support the suggestion to cut the AV's overpowered regen and ability to fire through his shield.
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Originally Posted by Avatea
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Nit pick time:
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Chem is a -Def, -Res power. I think the value is -30% for each. I don't see any indication it affects -Regen.|
The rockets do three things: Bio: Maxes most/all of the player's regen rate to survive the damage that the AV+combined spawns can dish out. Chem: Floors the AV's regen rate. Nuke: Deals a whole bunch of direct damage in a single burst |
Bio is also a substantial +Dmg buff (150%)
Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)
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correct, the amount of 24 nukes would be enough to basically floor any resistance the AV has thus making it able to overcome regen through sheer dmg and whatever -regen debuffs poeple have through secondary effects of powers|
Originally Posted by Deacon_NA
Nit pick time:
Chem is a -Def, -Res power. I think the value is -30% for each. I don't see any indication it affects -Regen. |
the warburg nuke not allowed in CoP was one of the stupidest changes so far, aside from the low reward and now this making it more difficult, im gonna have a hard time finding a reason for doing this outside of the badge and possible future for incarnate salvage
I'm actually really annoyed with this, probably more than I should be!!! If the patch notes suggested about removing the Warburg nukes, but they have made the trial more achieveable through a regen reduction (heck even just that and leaving the big fat overpowered cheap jerk to fire through his shields would be a start) thats ok, but as it stands, they have just potentially wasted the large amount of time i've spent earning the prestige to get the equipment to even do this trial EU side, let alone sinking the ability for a lot of people to get the badge.
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Proud resident of the Union EU Server.
B.A.F. Trial Guide
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i think it was discussed earlier in the thread that the 2 main priorities that need to be fixes is the AVs haxxor PFF and the insane regen rate of the AVs|
Originally Posted by TsumijuZero
I'm actually really annoyed with this, probably more than I should be!!! If the patch notes suggested about removing the Warburg nukes, but they have made the trial more achieveable through a regen reduction (heck even just that and leaving the big fat overpowered cheap jerk to fire through his shields would be a start) thats ok, but as it stands, they have just potentially wasted the large amount of time i've spent earning the prestige to get the equipment to even do this trial EU side, let alone sinking the ability for a lot of people to get the badge.
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as to why they did this little shenanigan, we still have yet to hear some reasoning
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sorry, an out of character additional rant from me, but I have just spent a rather large amount of my time getting my SG base raid equipped (and im solo so it wasnt easy)
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Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master
i think it was discussed earlier in the thread that the 2 main priorities that need to be fixes is the AVs haxxor PFF and the insane regen rate of the AVs
as to why they did this little shenanigan, we still have yet to hear some reasoning |
In-game and now on Twitter @Tsumiju Zero "The Nightmare of Dra'Gon"
"The flow of battle can only be influenced, not by realtime tactics, but by strategy."
Proud resident of the Union EU Server.
B.A.F. Trial Guide
Colour me unimpressed and baffled by the no-nuke change, too. Are any devs looking at feedback here or regarding the party pack?
On the other hand, the stormy AV obviously needs to be reworked. Let's look at some logs.
08-27-2010 18:42:09 Aspect of Rularuu HITS you! Ion Burst power had a 42.37% chance to hit and rolled a 37.51.
08-27-2010 18:42:11 Aspect of Rularuu HITS you! Ion Burst power had a 95.00% chance to hit and rolled a 17.65.
08-27-2010 18:42:14 Aspect of Rularuu HITS you! Ion Burst power had a 74.47% chance to hit and rolled a 25.18.
08-27-2010 18:42:16 Aspect of Rularuu HITS you! Ion Burst power had a 15.75% chance to hit and rolled a 8.68.
08-27-2010 18:42:19 Aspect of Rularuu MISSES! Ion Burst power had a 15.75% chance to hit, but rolled a 51.52.
08-27-2010 18:42:21 Aspect of Rularuu MISSES! Ion Burst power had a 15.75% chance to hit, but rolled a 49.68.
A massive AoE every 2-3 seconds (1 second animating, 1 second recharge, and then server delay). Did someone misplace a zero again? His hurricane does -57.6% tohit debuff. He's constantly spamming blizzard, freezing rain, and ice storm in and out of barriers. He regens back to full in seconds, even if taken to one third of his health before barrier comes up. Please fix this encounter before taking away the last-resort tools of the few who are even bothering with this trial, whose difficulty is already substantial without this buggy AV.
08-27-2010 18:43:23 Aspect of Rularuu HITS you! Ion Burst power had a 95.00% chance to hit and rolled a 6.56.
08-27-2010 18:43:24 Aspect of Rularuu blasts you with his Ion Burst for 1328.47 points of energy damage and drains some of your Endurance!
I18 Hamidon raiding guide
This Patch is Epic Fail.
Everyone else has pretty much covered how I feel. The No Nukes on CoP is ******* ******** retarded, uncalled for, unwanted, and unnessecary. The problem isn't the Nukes, it's the broken piece of WoW that is the GM.
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