Going Rogue/Issue 18 - Patch notes for build 1850.201009101722.1T
By
Alpha-One,
Posted on: 2010-09-16 14:08 in The Global Training Room Test Server
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I'm pretty sure he was implying that. It's hard for the devs to see what needs fixing while the "I Win" button is still screwing up the results.
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Originally Posted by ROBOKiTTY
To me, that would indicate there's something wrong with the encounter itself.
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then why aren't they banning Temp pets or all temps also? 24 people launching 1-2 EB level pets is a huge balance shifter as well... 24 people just turn in to 48-72 |
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
It seems to me that if I wanted to test out the difficulty of an encounter like this and datamine how the players handled it, I might want to eliminate a huge balance shifter, such as the warburg nukes, especially if I saw them being used enough that it was affecting my ability to judge how much trouble the players may have against the encounter.
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not saying your wrong. just seems if thats what they were testing then they would want to eliminate anything that would effect how the players needed to handle the trial...
Banning the nukes is bad juju since people are expecting a single and consistent set of game rules (one of the reasons why pvp is doa).
The AV could be made more resistant to nukes (either stacking doesn't work on him or he is specifically more resistant to the nuke debuff effects)
The larger issue is that teams that cannot drop him in the first two rounds have very little hope of finishing him at all. For a trial with an hour timer this means that the CoP timer may as well be on a twenty minute timer.
Consider lengthening the timer between reinforcement rularuu spawns each time they come. This would add breathing space for weaker teams and eventually lengthen the window that the AV could be vulnerable. Of course the effects of this specific change wouldn't be noticeable until 5+ rounds in, but it would give hope for teams fighting an epic battle that the AV would 'let up' a little. Without hope the teams will just give up since they know that their best shot was their only shot, and if they miss it it's game over.
Personally I believe this game is too easy but there has to be a balance and opportunity between the haves and have nots.
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This 1000 times THIS!!!!!!!
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Originally Posted by ChaosExMachina
What about Mace Beam Volley? Mace Mastery is currently the only Controller APP that does not include an AOE attack, and it would almost certainly make more sense than an accuracy boost to an AT that has little need of it.
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There is but one truth. Time is limited. ndnw its over
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What about sending the darn things back in time? The rockets have made their way into the distant past to hit Romulus from time to time.
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Originally Posted by Czar_Bal
I always wondered how the missiles got there in the first place. If we humans can ship missiles across dimensions with amazing accuracy, what would we need supers for? Targeting?
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Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
Let's all just hope that they did this as a preparation for Incarnates, because testing showed that they made the CoP a cakewalk. (Even though that is still stupid to do it BEFORE release)
Otherwise,
FFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
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all right, benefit of the doubt, I didn't realize Rularuu had two different versions. Out of the last four runs I did (did two last night) 3 times we had *I think* the purple version, which apparently has higher resistances/regen. The second run last night we got the red version, which was considerably weaker, didn't use any nukes, but three people had a HVAS and we finished the trial in like 8 minutes.
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
I do disagree with this somewhat.
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I think you're crossing wires on what is meant by "exploit"... exploiting is when some one abuses a bug that gives them an advantage. NOT abusing something working as intended...|
Originally Posted by Xionian
ok I don't get how this is an exploit. Its a temp power that is a tool given to players to make hard tasks easier(possible?). If it was allowing people to do something unintended for the CoP that should have been taken into consideration when designing the damn trial. Are you banning Nukes from all TFs and trials? will you ban them from hami/MS raids also?
If its something else that's exploity about the nukes on the trial. can you please figure out a fix that doesn't ban them... |
Also the problem isn't the nukes. It's the trial's code obviously.
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Given the amount of posts to the contrary I'm going to have to disagree there. If there was a proven reliable method for PuG's to do this then we'd be scratching our heads wondering what difference nukes made in the first place.
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Originally Posted by Amygdala
In my experience, you don't need 'mind boggling' levels of co-ordination to do the CoP reliably without nukes. The Storm AV may be more demanding in this department, but not impossible. The other AV is very doable with a PuG group and no nukes and in a decent amount of time.
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In-game and now on Twitter @Tsumiju Zero "The Nightmare of Dra'Gon"
"The flow of battle can only be influenced, not by realtime tactics, but by strategy."
Proud resident of the Union EU Server.
B.A.F. Trial Guide
I think the worst part of this outcry is that CoP isn't even worth doing...
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Chalk me up as another player who was totally unaware that the trial had two versions of the final AV.|
Originally Posted by Mr. DJ
all right, benefit of the doubt, I didn't realize Rularuu had two different versions. Out of the last four runs I did (did two last night) 3 times we had *I think* the purple version, which apparently has higher resistances/regen. The second run last night we got the red version, which was considerably weaker, didn't use any nukes, but three people had a HVAS and we finished the trial in like 8 minutes.
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Union's runs that I've been on have both been against the Storm summoner AV, against whom the best we managed was to knock about 25-30% of his health in one shield downtime, all of which he'd regenerated by the time we got the shields down again. This sort of result leads to more than a little disillusionment with the prospects of completing the damn thing after an hour of battering your head off a brick wall and faceplanting repeatedly.
Nothing I've seen in game has implied that there was an 'easy mode' version of the AV.
Warning:
The above post may contain Cynicism, sarcasm and/or pessimism. If you object to the quantities contained, then tough.
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Then you would be wrong. As White Hot Flash said, we run this PuG and SG on Champion consistently without nukes, Shivans, Heavies. |
Originally Posted by TsumijuZero
Given the amount of posts to the contrary I'm going to have to disagree there. If there was a proven reliable method for PuG's to do this then we'd be scratching our heads wondering what difference nukes made in the first place.
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Like I said on Virtue, just because they couldn't pull it off doesn't mean that they should take away someone else's accomplishments.
"Champion (the Community Server... or GTFO) is like a small town where everyone knows each other's names, for better or worse." -kojirodensetsu.
"If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail." - Maslow's Hammer
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I have to agree. After the badgers get their badge what is left? Herding cats for an hour just to make the teams for a trial whose dificulty is based on luck only to get a reward I could have got running an Oro arc in half that time...This trial is already suffering from enough issues. Lets not make it worse.
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Originally Posted by Mattwo7
I think the worst part of this outcry is that CoP isn't even worth doing...
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Virtue
--Blazing Tiger-- 50 Invulrn/Fire Tank
<<Virtues Tankiest Kitty>>
Try my Arcs: #4892 and #112548
@Blazing Tiger and @Aqua Fox
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And just like it says in that thread (referenced here) it's suggested that the Red Aspect AV is easier in comparison to the Purple one and that there is an issue with the monster regeneration of the latter. Both there and here your opinion seems to be in the MINORITY so I would avoid suggestion other players are "wrong" when discussing events such as the CoP.|
Originally Posted by Cobalt_Azurean
Then you would be wrong. As White Hot Flash said, we run this PuG and SG on Champion consistently without nukes, Shivans, Heavies.
Like I said on Virtue, just because they couldn't pull it off doesn't mean that they should take away someone else's accomplishments. |
A better reply would have been to conceed the issues that's being faced by the MAJORITY of teams and offer positive ways in which the situation can be overcome.
In-game and now on Twitter @Tsumiju Zero "The Nightmare of Dra'Gon"
"The flow of battle can only be influenced, not by realtime tactics, but by strategy."
Proud resident of the Union EU Server.
B.A.F. Trial Guide
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You were disagreein' that it was very doable, which we've clearly illustrated that it is very doable, thus why you're wrong.
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Originally Posted by TsumijuZero
And just like it says in that thread (referenced here) it's suggested that the Red Aspect AV is easier in comparison to the Purple one and that there is an issue with the monster regeneration of the latter. Both there and here your opinion seems to be in the MINORITY so I would avoid suggestion other players are "wrong" when discussing events such as the CoP.
A better reply would have been to conceed the issues that's being faced by the MAJORITY of teams and offer positive ways in which the situation can be overcome. |
"Champion (the Community Server... or GTFO) is like a small town where everyone knows each other's names, for better or worse." -kojirodensetsu.
"If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail." - Maslow's Hammer
You and one other person out of the entire thread have said they have done it... thats hardly "clearly illustrating" in comparison to everyone else that has disagreed. Please contribute something positive to the strategies as at the moment all I'm reading is posturing to troll.
In-game and now on Twitter @Tsumiju Zero "The Nightmare of Dra'Gon"
"The flow of battle can only be influenced, not by realtime tactics, but by strategy."
Proud resident of the Union EU Server.
B.A.F. Trial Guide
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Wait here. I'll get the 23 other people to say that it happened. That's a pretty clear illustration that it's doable. |
Originally Posted by TsumijuZero
You and one other person out of the entire thread have said they have done it... thats hardly "clearly illustrating" in comparison to everyone else that has disagreed. Please contribute something positive to the strategies as at the moment all I'm reading is posturing to troll.
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I'll be right back. Honest.
"Champion (the Community Server... or GTFO) is like a small town where everyone knows each other's names, for better or worse." -kojirodensetsu.
"If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail." - Maslow's Hammer
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If you go to the forums you referenced in an earlier post, i.e. Virtue, they have posted about a recent, successful run done without nukes against the Storm AV. There is a break down of the strat as well, which is very similar to what was done on successful runs I've participated in on Champion. If you read the details of what happened during the trial, I think it serves as an excellent example of how progress can be made with some strategy modifications.
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Originally Posted by TsumijuZero
You and one other person out of the entire thread have said they have done it... thats hardly "clearly illustrating" in comparison to everyone else that has disagreed. Please contribute something positive to the strategies as at the moment all I'm reading is posturing to troll.
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Leader of Renaissance de la Veritas
Moderator of ChampioNexus
Amygdala's Guide to the Cathedral of Pain Trial
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We did indeed do this on Champion. If you have any questions about strategy I am happy to answer.
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Originally Posted by TsumijuZero
You and one other person out of the entire thread have said they have done it... thats hardly "clearly illustrating" in comparison to everyone else that has disagreed. Please contribute something positive to the strategies as at the moment all I'm reading is posturing to troll.
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i agree 100% with this, the difficulty for a PuG and the very low rewards, make it not worth doing|
Originally Posted by Mattwo7
I think the worst part of this outcry is that CoP isn't even worth doing...
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since i got the badge on my main, im not gonna touch the trial again till they start tying incarnate stuff to it
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Out of curiosity, have you run it yet?
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Originally Posted by Mattwo7
I think the worst part of this outcry is that CoP isn't even worth doing...
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Biggest Troll on the forums? I'll give you a hint:
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Frankly, because none of the existing game mechanics work that way. If you need X to win, bringing a metric butt-ton of X means you will win really, really fast.|
Originally Posted by White Hot Flash
Why does it never occur to most folks that if you defeat something that's been deemed "hard" by the developers in such a short time, maybe that's not how it's supposed to work? Teamwork and coordination can get you far, yes, but there's a difference between being efficient and being stupidly fast.
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Killing Rularuu takes some moderate coordination and a lot of effective DPS (which includes -regen). If you have the coordination down and bring huge amounts of DPS, you're going to win in a hurry.
It really is that simple.
Nukes are something that can help if you don't have a lot of "native" DPS. If you have a lot of "native" DPS, you don't need nukes. But if you let nukes exist for the sake of people who don't have lots of buffers and/or heavily IO-laden characters on the trial, then you also have to let the people who do have lots of buffers and/or IO-heavy characters bring nukes too.
Making the trial objective be a big, tall, sack of HP will always work this way.
Edit: In GR beta, Castle said he couldn't replicate the Aspect attacking when he was in his bubble. Is this still the case? If so, this perplexes the living hell out of me, because I have never seen or heard of him staying passive when invulnerable.
Also part of the edit: Giving a version of the AV Hurricane sucks (blows?) bigtime for anyone with a melee AT. Yeah, you can bring a tray full of yellow inspirations. That doesn't seem like the way it ought to work, though. First time I went on a CoP, we were melee heavy, and we got the Hurricane AV and just couldn't kill him because we lost a ton of DPS when the melees could not hit. We tried again with more ranged characters and I'm pretty sure we got the other AV, and he folded like a house of cards.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Do you ask this because you do think it's worth its reward? Because I do not think it is even remotely worth the cat herding, even if you complete it in 10 minutes.
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Originally Posted by Kheldarn
Out of curiosity, have you run it yet?
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
It seems to me that if I wanted to test out the difficulty of an encounter like this and datamine how the players handled it, I might want to eliminate a huge balance shifter, such as the warburg nukes, especially if I saw them being used enough that it was affecting my ability to judge how much trouble the players may have against the encounter.
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Do angry villagers,carrying torches, frequently storm your home ?
I18 Hamidon raiding guide