Crazy Issue 20 Theories
By
Afterimage,
Posted on: 2010-09-16 11:13 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
All I can say about Diminishing Returns is that it's a needlessly complicated system that's likely to make people who are afraid of numbers now even more afraid in the future. We already have ED, which makes it all but impossible to predict what your slotting will do without a considerable amount of experience or without a lot of Wiki-diving. We don't need a system of diminishing returns over our existing system of diminishing returns.
I hate to be the one to say it, but the more complex and user-hostile that numbers in this game get, the worse this is for the players. Yes, the select few like Arcana will still be able to make sense of them and probably write guides, but I have an Applied Mathematics degree and even I'm not going to bother figuring out the Diminishing Returns system. According to Arcana, it involves an ArcTangent function and division by Pi, for Pete's sake! I mean, I know why that is, but slap that formula on anyone who didn't study university math and most people won't even bother.
If Diminishing Returns is intended to curtail power creep via stacked buffs, then its current implementation is not the way to go about it, because it seems to clip ALL slotting and ALL buffs from ALL sources irrespective of their size or scope. Yes, for low amounts it's a small decrease, but a good amount of powersets can and do self-stack significant amounts of buffs BY DESIGN.
Not a good idea to bring it to PvE. Far as I'm concerned, it wasn't a good idea to bring it to PvP, either, but I'm not interested in debating with the PvP folk.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Okay, so here's what happened in my dream last night:
I somehow found my way to some sort of seedy forum (all black text on white backgrounds) where people were reposting screenshots from the I20 Beta. Everyone was praising how well the game looked now, but many complained that their computers could no longer run the game smoothly. I was really curious, so I clicked on a promising-looking link that said "snow is scary now!". I was expecting some sort of high-res picture of the Winter event, but instead it was a screenshot of a simplified map of Northern America with white stripes that may have been clouds or snowdrifts. Dynamic weather, you guys!
I wanted to click on a few more links but then I woke up.
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Unadulterated malice no. We should all be for the betterment of the game and for the devs to work with us to help us enjoy the game as it should make sense, not to nullify ATs and certain builds outright from play in whatever form you choose to participate. I'm all for change to make things more balanced which can add a degree of difficulty but it has to make sense in the big scheme of things. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
And thus is explained the motivation behind these rumours. And it's about what you'd expect - pure, unadulterated malice.
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What goes around comes around, people don't want to voice their opinion to help raise awareness about player related issues that actually do affect us all or outright call the ones asking for SOME kind of feedback (which hasn't been given in two years) crybabies. I'm all for fixing things, I don't base raid but for a few times and I think it's a shame that the ones who loved to do so can no longer do it, there's a lot of issues that need addressed and rather than saying "Oh well it's over there in PvP land, not my concern" maybe people should speak up because wouldn't you want others to speak up for you if the shoe were on the other foot?
You're up to bat PvE'rs, hope the devs don't bean you with a 100 mph fastball too.
coming in i20... puppies and inclement weather. you were warned!
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I thought you were playing a scrapper? If you were you shouldn't have been getting held at all unless others were stacking the holds a lot on you.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
I'm not a numbers person, or an expert on powers, so I don't really have much idea exactly what DR is - all I know is that post-I13, I was getting held a lot less in PvP, so I only have positive feelings about it
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BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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I hope they put in an incredibly awesome new Arena PvP mode with lots of new maps and various goals like capture-the-flag or escorting a slow-moving bomb and guaranteed PvP IO drops for everybody. |
Originally Posted by Championess
I REALLY hope it's DR coming to PvE, the hate that would be thrown about by the total community about how bad DR is if it were to be the current PvP version would be hilarious, finally now everyone would understand how PvP'ers felt.
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And then put a button in City Hall that when clicked, disables this PvP mode for everyone on the server for five minutes.
And when PvPers complain that someone is always sitting there obsessively pushing the button to keep the awesome new PvP mode closed, the Devs would be like "Well we hoped it would give you an incentive to go over there and talk to the person in City Hall and, y'know, roleplay and try to convince them to stop clicking the button. Roleplaying is fun, you should try it!"
Character index
I haven't read them all but one just entered my mind.
Personal bases/hideouts would be a big addition for the Roleplay crowd. It something we been asking for and something I think would be new to any MMO. Using a special building like the AE building you go in and enter your Map. Customized with items bought with INF and it be saved on your drive like the AE files for your created AE mission. At least that how I would do it.
I mostly solo so DR for buffs I won't have a problem with IF they increase the time it lasts. For example clear mind lasting longer so the buffer would be able to do more then just continue buffing down everyone. With the longer effect time I the shock of having DR wouldn't be as bad.
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Also needed for this would be unlocked hat costume piece options for PVP, some of which are AT exclusive, like some kind of Killer's Kabuto, AT Exclusive IO sets, and also a manly Australian developer.|
Originally Posted by Silver Gale
I hope they put in an incredibly awesome new Arena PvP mode with lots of new maps and various goals like capture-the-flag or escorting a slow-moving bomb and guaranteed PvP IO drops for everybody.
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Anyway though, my guess what this could all be about?
CUSTOM POWERS
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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... Dammit! Come on! It's morning coffee time. Post this kind of stuff when I don't have something extremely hot to shoot out my nose, please.
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Originally Posted by Silver Gale
I hope they put in an incredibly awesome new Arena PvP mode with lots of new maps and various goals like capture-the-flag or escorting a slow-moving bomb and guaranteed PvP IO drops for everybody.
And then put a button in City Hall that when clicked, disables this PvP mode for everyone on the server for five minutes. And when PvPers complain that someone is always sitting there obsessively pushing the button to keep the awesome new PvP mode closed, the Devs would be like "Well we hoped it would give you an incentive to go over there and talk to the person in City Hall and, y'know, roleplay and try to convince them to stop clicking the button. Roleplaying is fun, you should try it!" |
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If find this interesting since in many previous debates about pvp, pvers were told to shut up because they don't pvp. This was especially true when the first debates about power proliferation was going on and the discussion about Psionic Blasters started.|
Originally Posted by Championess
Unadulterated malice no. We should all be for the betterment of the game and for the devs to work with us to help us enjoy the game as it should make sense, not to nullify ATs and certain builds outright from play in whatever form you choose to participate. I'm all for change to make things more balanced which can add a degree of difficulty but it has to make sense in the big scheme of things.
What goes around comes around, people don't want to voice their opinion to help raise awareness about player related issues that actually do affect us all or outright call the ones asking for SOME kind of feedback (which hasn't been given in two years) crybabies. I'm all for fixing things, I don't base raid but for a few times and I think it's a shame that the ones who loved to do so can no longer do it, there's a lot of issues that need addressed and rather than saying "Oh well it's over there in PvP land, not my concern" maybe people should speak up because wouldn't you want others to speak up for you if the shoe were on the other foot? You're up to bat PvE'rs, hope the devs don't bean you with a 100 mph fastball too. |
Why all of a sudden now do pvpers care what pvers think?
If you want folks to speak up for you perhaps you shouldn't do everything in your power to alienate them. Just saying.
EDIT: Also during the I13 testing MANY folks (/em raises hand) DID speak up about how craptacular I13 was, and how it made the pvp and pve games further divergent. We were also soundly ignored by the devs. They were hellbent on trying out this new pvp system to bring in new pvpers. There was nothing ANYONE could do to change that.
EDIT2: Also keep in mind some people LIKED (and still do) the I13 system, and said so. THAT feedback is also taken into account whether those of us who don't like I13, like it or not.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
A total revamp of the Costume Creator(bring in Aion's CC+current) and a total refresh of all city zones and maps! Shard renovation!...and to get the testers fired up at each other something controversial with the Incarnate system...its not a good beta without a spirited debate and some number tossing fights...meeow cat fight saucer of milk for the accounts table!
I saw an intriguing loadscreen yesterday. It said, "With Praetoria and Primal Earth looming ever closer can war be far behind?" I know that most of these are written by players but what if this was written by a dev? It sounds very much like a teaser for coming issues. No one seems to be acknowledging the obvious though. Praetoria is only 20 levels in it's present form and the only way in is to create new characters. GR and Praetoria have been spouting off about "The Hamidon Wars". It's common knowledge that many players are unhappy with the lack of endgame material and that most agree PvP in this game sux. Positron has already mentioned that he is working on new endgame content. I think that i20 will incorporate a little or maybe even a lot of all of these things. Will factions be able to control Hamidons and use them against each other in PvP? What will take place in the remaining 30 levels that will open up Praetoria to the whole playerbase? Will those other 30 levels be full blown PvP zones? Will we finally get a system put into place that allows players to choose whether or not they want to PvP in PvP zones like there is in other games? What's up with zowies? The devs promoted them like they were going to be much more significant than they are now. I know that there's problems with them. They also seem kind of lame just as glowies in open areas. It leads me to believe that there is coming content for open zone missions that will only been seen by the players on the team. There's also this:
It was posted on the CoH facebook page on Sept. 3rd with the caption, "What could this mean? Find out at the City of Heroes panel at Pax Prime tomorrow morning!" Could it mean that they are working on an auto-teaming system? If you attended that panel and it doesn't break the NDA could you let us know?
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See Below.
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Originally Posted by GhoulSlayer
It was posted on the CoH facebook page on Sept. 3rd with the caption, "What could this mean? Find out at the City of Heroes panel at Pax Prime tomorrow morning!" Could it mean that they are working on an auto-teaming system? If you attended that panel and it doesn't break the NDA could you let us know? |
That picture is about the Apex TF coming in I19 for characters with the Alpha Incarnate slot enabled. We've known about this since the PAX Panel.
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What does a level 15 scrapper lft have to do with level 50 content?
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Originally Posted by DMystic
That picture is about the Apex TF coming in I19 for characters with the Alpha Incarnate slot enabled. We've known about this since the PAX Panel.
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He's leveled up a lot in the past several years.|
Originally Posted by GhoulSlayer
What does a level 15 scrapper lft have to do with level 50 content?
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-Rachel-
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I would have quit. No need to stay on and attack other players for something they had no control over.|
Originally Posted by LuxunS
Admittedly PvP was not perfect prior to I13. PvP was very close to the PvE game. Now it is a completely different game. Powers don't work the same, and complete understanding of the system requires knowledge of calculus. If the developers changed the part of the game that you most enjoyed, then promised you that they would continue to work on it and refine it; how would you feel? After nearly 2 years would you be malicious? |
Being malicious DOES NOT get anyone on your side. Especially not other players in the playerbase.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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The problem is many members of the PvP community have that malice aimed squarely at PvE'ers. I have literally never PvP'd in this game, nor have I ever given any feedback regarding PvP. The Dev's would have to make purples drop every 30 seconds for me to even think about setting foot in a PvP zone. And then I still might not.|
Originally Posted by LuxunS
Admittedly PvP was not perfect prior to I13. PvP was very close to the PvE game. Now it is a completely different game. Powers don't work the same, and complete understanding of the system requires knowledge of calculus. If the developers changed the part of the game that you most enjoyed, then promised you that they would continue to work on it and refine it; how would you feel? After nearly 2 years would you be malicious?
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I'm not alone in that either. Many of us just aren't interested in PvP at all. It's not a case of hating PvP or those who like it. It's a case of simply not being interested. Yet we are often targeted by the malice you mention. Wrong target. Your ire should be at the Devs, not the players. ("You" in the general sense, of course.)
Two words: signature powers.
I mean, c'mon, the suggestion's been stickied for three years!
~union4lyfe~
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You know, I will agree with you that PvPers didn't ask for those particular changes. And I'll also agree that your complaints were ignored during beta.|
Originally Posted by LuxunS
You've said this more then once now, it is absolutely false. No one in the pvp community wanted the changes introduced in I13. During the closed beta, people complained, there was some awesome feedback and suggestions given; all of it was ignored.
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But here's the thing. While the PvP community didn't ask for *those* changes, they did ask for change. To be honest, the complaints I hear now don't really sound all that different from the ones I heard pre-I13. PvP was broken, it was unbalanced, it wasn't as fun as it should be, the devs weren't spending enough time addressing the concerns of the PvP community, they weren't doing enough to keep experienced PvPers and to attract new ones. The zones were empty, not enough people used the arena, they were tired of dealing with badgers who didn't want to fight, and so on and so forth.
The only difference is that now all the complaints are aimed at the new system. You guys sound like widows who pretend their deceased husband was a saint even though they fought with him constantly while he was alive. And I can't really blame the devs for not seeing a difference in beta between PvPers honestly having a problem with the changes, and just complaining because it's not perfect.
"Home is where, when you have to go there, they have to let you in."
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Exactly. Most of the reasonable members of the community left in short order. All that's left are trolls and those hopeful that changes will be coming.|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
I would have quit. No need to stay on and attack other players for something they had no control over.
Being malicious DOES NOT get anyone on your side. Especially not other players in the playerbase. |
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Originally Posted by Steel_Shaman
Your ire should be at the Devs, not the players. ("You" in the general sense, of course.)
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Originally Posted by Steel_Shaman
The problem is many members of the PvP community have that malice aimed squarely at PvE'ers.
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If we were all children the PvPers are the kids that act up to get attention. The Devs are the bullies who steal the PvPers candy, but are too big for the kids to do anything about it. The PvEers who don't say anything about it and ignore PvP are the ones who watch the kids get bullied but don't say anything about it because its not their business. If I had my candy taken and you turned a blind eye, I wouldn't be much happy with you either.
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Stop. Getting. My. Hopes up!! |
Originally Posted by Duncan_Frost
Two words: signature powers.
I mean, c'mon, the suggestion's been stickied for three years! |
Gah! *throws self out of thread and runs away*
Speculation is bad for me!
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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My crazy theories:
1) City Vault, with a online build planner in a bid to replace the ever-popular Mids.
2) Opposing faction missions, where two teams have to complete opposing goals with automatic failure if they PvP.
3) Implementation of peer to peer technology supposedly to reduce server load, but more so the dev's can get copies of all the porn on your system.
4) Additional client versions to tap into that massive Amiga market my coworker *swears* is out there.
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And what pray tell do you expect the pvers to do about it?|
Originally Posted by LuxunS
Exactly. Most of the reasonable members of the community left in short order. All that's left are trolls and those hopeful that changes will be coming.
It is. The devs get <$#!%> from PvPers constantly. Not just the devs most of the NcSoft employees do whenever they make themselves available. During live chats and in-game events its terribly noticeable. During the first free server transfers there was a pvp event on the champion server. I went over there to participate and Niv showed up to participate as well. In the first round she had to have been killed 40 times. I'm not exaggerating it was 8v8 in an office map, she was dead before she could move. It's the "you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem" mentality. Enough strictly PvE players come over to the PvP boards saying things along the lines of "You got what you deserved" that the community has little tolerance for PvE players with similar mentalities. Many PvE players who were not able to be competitive in pvp or badgers who were upset about being attacked in pvp zones taunted PvPers when their aspect of the game was ruined. Now most PvPers have adopted that sentiment. If we were all children the PvPers are the kids that act up to get attention. The Devs are the bullies who steal the PvPers candy, but are too big for the kids to do anything about it. The PvEers who don't say anything about it and ignore PvP are the ones who watch the kids get bullied but don't say anything about it because its not their business. If I had my candy taken and you turned a blind eye, I wouldn't be much happy with you either. |
Quit? When the pvpers won't? That makes NO LOGICAL SENSE WHATSOEVER. As I said before MANY a pver also complained after testing the proposed I13 changes that they sucked. Yet (I feel like a ******* broken record) they too were ignored. THAT somehow keeps getting glossed over by many (notice I didn't say all) pvpers.
The pvers taunting are idiots. However the ones who say NOTHING about because they don't care about pvp most definitely do not need or deserve the stupidity often pointed their way.
Let me put it another way, bases haven't had anything done with them for a long time. Yet you don't see base lovers attacking pvers for "not saying anything". The logic that it's okay to be mad at someone who had NO CONTROL over an aspect of the game and don't comment on it cause they aren't interested is silly to me.
It's okay to not care about a certain aspect of the game. If everyone ******* about parts of the game they don't use, have no interest in, just to *****, there'd be threads as long as 100+ pages on every page and a lot of folks with indigestion. It also wouldn't make sense since the only ones who have control over ANYTHING in this game are the devs. Period.
EDIT: To turn your analogy right back at you, if I saw you getting bullied and having your candy taken away, I'd go to a teacher. Except in this case the teacher and the bully taking your candy are on and the same. The teacher would just smile and say "it builds character, trust me I know what I'm doing". soooooo, there isn't much that either of us could do besides walk off the playground. However, I LIKE the playground despite the bullying.
To bring back to game terms, it'd be like pvers who don't like pvp, don't care about pvp, quitting over something they have no care about. you quitting makes perfect sense. A pver over something they never cared about and don't like? LOLWUT?
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Stacking buffs/debuffs, and getting the most out of every scenario is what makes combat fun for me in this game. Take that away, and there's really nothing left to keep me interested.
Since CoH has competition on the way, would the Devs really want to take the risk of a game-wide nerf likely to cause every bit as much rage as ED and GDN? I would hope not.
I don't really think DR for PvE is coming. But then the human race has consistently amazed me with our ability to make really dumb decisions, so who knows?