Crazy Issue 20 Theories
By
Afterimage,
Posted on: 2010-09-16 11:13 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Originally Posted by Primal
This is something I'd like clarified as well.
I mean, I get the idea, that stacking buffs or debuffs are made less effective with each "stack". But why, if that were implemented, are people saying it'd be beyond horrible? Yeesh, how many teams I've been on where people could barely be bothered to de/buff at all, much less stack it up hugely, maybe you get a couple of buffs on you or a couple of debuffs on the enemies. It just seems like a large majority of the players wouldn't even notice much less raise hell. Somebody scare me! I hate to use the phrase "min max" as it usually comes off as derogatory, but frankly that's what it's sounding like. I doubt I'm the only one who plays in PuGs that are, at best, mid-tier. I will agree with the Shaman et al though, a sudden (or increasing) emphasis on end-game would make me say my farewells. I prefer the journey. I just mention this if it's related, I honestly don't know. |
As I, a casual PvP'er undersood it:
Take a team of 8 buffers, They're all force-multipliers getting the full effect of the force multiplier... effectively hitting every hard cap imaginable at PvE levels. Match them against a team of 8 non buffers- let's use an assembly of 8 blasters and scrappers. No force multiplier in effect, nobody able to get near the buffable caps.
Not much of a contest.
So, the idea was to make it so the 8 buffers' force multipliers would give SOME stacking benefit, but not such an extreme difference.
The problem as I saw it was that it just made it tougher to PUG pvp. If you were a buffer in a field the team was already strong in, they didn't see you as providing much contribution... And it didn't really stop the team-composition issues. People just built a team with a specific blend of innate powers, buffs, and debuffs to give the broadest range of benefit with least possible "lost" to the stacked buffs. Where the intent of I13's changes was to broaden the range of playable PvP archetypes, it made these teams much more selective in who they took!
(One of the guiding principles I've heard about PvP is you don't give any quarter-- you engage with every advantage imaginable and preferrably when every disadvantage is on your foe. PvP teams don't forget buffs or debuffs as much as their PvE counterparts. In PvE, the AI is stupid, predictable, and rather forgiving of mistakes. In PvP, your adversary is usually... well, stupid and predictable, too... and generally they have worse grammar, but your teammates are thoroughly unforgiving and consider you to be dumb as rocks the moment you let your buffs drop when engaging the enemy.
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A better analogy is to imagine yourself running with a 50ft bungie cord tied around your waist. You can make the first 50 feet with no problem, but every step after that takes more effort and gains less ground, until eventually you reach a point where the cord just won't stretch any further.
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Originally Posted by PC_guy
diminishing returns is essentially that. literally everything that happnes to your character hits a "wall" so to speak after a certain point. so for instance, a 25% tohit buff (note: of any kind, tactics, BU, aim, the source doesn't matter) might not be affected by DR but in the current system if you had 50% it might hit the wall around 35 and the final number might only be 39 (also note these are completely fabricated numbers only to show an example).
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Main Hero: Chad Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1396 Badges
Main Villain: Evil Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1193 Badges
Mission Architect arcs: Doctor Brainstorm's An Experiment Gone Awry, Arc ID 2093
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
one thought, i dont think its the animation thing, too many characters have the option of doing kicking techniques that would look horrid without rooting. other heroic mmo doesn't un-root all powers, and the ones that are usable moving look awful in a lot of cases. I significantly doubt that would be doable here nor that it would look good.
yeah we know about endgame, seems excessive to do that much security for that, so people speculate about what else could be in it as well. |
Agreed. Take a moment to STUDY the melee attacks. Virtually all of them are (rightly) full-body engagements. There's a leaning forward posture to dual blades, punches are leaned into, you commit into a sword swing with the whole center of gravity. You can't just run the punch emote on the top of the body while setting the legs to running without getting into... well... laughably ridiculous animations. You'd have to have virtually all new upper-body animations to fit the lower-body movement so at that point why the heck do you separate them?
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Heh... some of us just like taking the "Crazy" part of this thread seriously.|
Originally Posted by ChaosExMachina
Wow, I'm simultaneously amused and embarrassed that they did everything but explicitly announce what the big i20 system was, and yet there is only 1 post here referencing it.
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And some of us just like prodding the crazies on.
And some of us are a little of both.
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I guess that's a good way to look at it. |
Originally Posted by Terwyn
So.... a CoX version of a Time War of the Doctor's persuasion?
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I usually equate it to some of DC's "Infinite Crisis / One Year Later" or Marvel's "Heroes Reborn" titles. That keeps things consistent with the comic book genre.
... and besides, both of those served as a way to cut free of the past and re-imagine and modernize the world in a way that satisfies old users and can attract new ones. CoH2 would have similar purposes of modernization, re-imagination, and opening a new game to old and new audiences alike. To me, it seems like a perfect "end."
I know. Blue Steel will finally get a Praetorian counterpart and we shall meet him! 
to 
TO THE END!Villains are those who dedicate their lives to causing mayhem. Villians are people from the planet Villia!
Hamidon?
to TO THE END!Villains are those who dedicate their lives to causing mayhem. Villians are people from the planet Villia!
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Originally Posted by Obscure Blade
*The "vanishing contact" technology being expanded to the larger environment, so if a mission ends with the building supposedly being destroyed, you actually see it as being in ruins or on fire but no one else does.
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You know, I hadn't thought of this one before.
But that would be one way to actually implement a type of "destructible environment" into the overworld map in an acceptable fashion.
Hmm....
6000+ levels gained and 8 level 50's
Hello, my name is Soulwind and I have Alt-Itis.
The more I think about it, the more I wonder Diminishing Returns is really as bad as people say... I mean, it doesn't effect a solo character right? Just buffs from the same powers? So, only a few powers would be effected by this, or teams that had say, two bubblers or something... but even then it wouldn't negate the benefit of two bubblers completely, just take the team down a notch.
Am I missing something?
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And I don't think that'd need an NDA either |
Originally Posted by Soulwind
You know, I hadn't thought of this one before.
But that would be one way to actually implement a type of "destructible environment" into the overworld map in an acceptable fashion. Hmm.... |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Actually, i can see DR being implemented for the newer Incarnate content, if not to the game in general. The last official Dev word on DR that i recall reading stated that it would not be added to older PvE content, but might be used in new content. IIRC the Incarnate abilities that were tested in the GR beta allowed characters to partially bypass ED for specific attributes.|
Originally Posted by Obscure Blade
I think all this talk about adding DR to PvE is mostly just deliberate rumormongering by disgruntled PvPers demonstrating yet again why they are not a popular group; not something to be taken as a serious possibility.
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i could see a less severe version of DR being used in PvE as beneficial from a balancing standpoint. As crazy theories go it has a certain appeal.
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| *The "vanishing contact" technology being expanded to the larger environment, so if a mission ends with the building supposedly being destroyed, you actually see it as being in ruins or on fire but no one else does. |
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Originally Posted by Soulwind
You know, I hadn't thought of this one before.
But that would be one way to actually implement a type of "destructible environment" into the overworld map in an acceptable fashion. Hmm.... |
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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My guess is, if they did that, they'd just not let you go into the destroyed building. Maybe put a force field around it.
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Originally Posted by Schismatrix
Though it would lead to some cognitive dissonance as you hop around in the rubble and everyone else sees you bouncing through the walls of an intact building. Or standing on top of a burning (for you) building and have the fire chew through your health next to someone standing there unharmed. That could be sort of fun.
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I'm not a numbers person, or an expert on powers, so I don't really have much idea exactly what DR is - all I know is that post-I13, I was getting held a lot less in PvP, so I only have positive feelings about it
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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You are missing a lot. I'll fully explain this when I have a little more time.
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Originally Posted by Zikar
The more I think about it, the more I wonder Diminishing Returns is really as bad as people say... I mean, it doesn't effect a solo character right? Just buffs from the same powers? So, only a few powers would be effected by this, or teams that had say, two bubblers or something... but even then it wouldn't negate the benefit of two bubblers completely, just take the team down a notch.
Am I missing something? |
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This is awesome and I fully support it.|
Originally Posted by Chase_Arcanum
Incarnate system full-blown--- I could see adding 2-3 "levels" at once, but since posi said their ultimate goal is to add something incarnate to all future issues, I wouldn't expect more.
The coming storm won't be an invasion from Praetoria. That wouldn't fit with the broad allusions we've heard since. The "Coming Storm" that is alluded to seems to be affecting the whole multiverse... seems to be akin to things like the "infinite earths" DC crisis. My guess is we're already seeing some of the initial effects of the storm ever since dark mirror introduced our dopplegangers. Since this is a thread for baseless conjecture, here's mine for the "coming storm": Whoever sets things in motion (a nemesis plot?) he may be inspired by Recluse's Victory and/or Project Destiny. In those, Recluse isn't satisfied with knowing that he wins on some other dimension, he want to bind that dimension to this one, bringing his victory here... colliding those dimensions and all their occupants together. The difference here, though, is this is a "storm" of dimensions colliding into themselves... coalescing with primal earth. It will set off wars and struggles of epic proportion as reality itself twists and cracks to make room for conflicting histories and the myriad possibilities whittling down to one true reality. Some of our doppleganger encounters are from the earliest incidences... the worlds closet to our own starting to merge over... we're not "merged" with them due to our experineces in sidestepping outside the timestream / dimension hopping. Things will only grow more dangerous as the storm proceeds. Incarnates... spread across all these issues... will deal with these cosmic metaspace collisions. We're talking Issues 20, 21, 22+ After the multiverse crashes, one world will emerge. Mender Silos is trying to set things in motion to guarantee his desired outcome. Our mystery letter-writer (Tyrant?) has his own objectives. Their goal is to influence what this world will be- perhaps to be the gods that make the next world, whether benevolent or in malice. We fight for or against these parties to save what we hold dear or grasp at the power we want for ourselves... battling to the very last moment of existence... when all goes white. At that point, a new city will emerge. Its past and present will be crafted from the remnants of the once-divided universes, and people will remember it as if it had always been that way... because it has. Parts will resemble Praetoria, Paragon, and even the Rogue Isles (all ultramoded) and its inhabitants will be us... and not. This begins CoH's equivalent of DC's "One Year Later" and Marvel's "Heroes Reborn"-- a reimagining of our world and the heroes within it. A universe that's not quite like the one we see as afterimages as we dream of battles that we don't really remember participating in. It'll be a new city... and world... that's in desperate need of heroes, again. The City of Heroes will be over. Welcome to City of Heroes 2.0. |
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Originally Posted by Zikar
The more I think about it, the more I wonder Diminishing Returns is really as bad as people say... I mean, it doesn't effect a solo character right? Just buffs from the same powers? So, only a few powers would be effected by this, or teams that had say, two bubblers or something... but even then it wouldn't negate the benefit of two bubblers completely, just take the team down a notch.
Am I missing something? |
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That was by design, though.|
Originally Posted by Schismatrix
Actually, i can see DR being implemented for the newer Incarnate content, if not to the game in general. The last official Dev word on DR that i recall reading stated that it would not be added to older PvE content, but might be used in new content. IIRC the Incarnate abilities that were tested in the GR beta allowed characters to partially bypass ED for specific attributes.
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Remember, ED came about close to the launch of CoV. They anticipated many supergroups securing Item of Power Buffs (which, as an external buff, are applied after ED). They always anticipated alternative buffs to be applied on top of the ED numbers. While HOW MUCH of a buff they allowed room for is unknown, nothing in the accessible leaks would have taken you to pre-ED levels... other-player-buffs will still have a place in taking you to the hard caps.
(Granted, there have been some dev allusions that SOME IO enhancements have gone too far in some places, so they might have to be selective on what buffs they offer via Incarnates...)
Currently DR only functions in PVP zones and arenas. It affects only attributemods and totals. This is important, but requires some explaining. For easy of explaining, you can look at DR as hitting a character twice in 2 different ways.
The first way is that it hits bonuses from slotted enhancements. DR kicks in the second you slot an enhancement. This aspect of DR does not affect set bonuses. DR only affects the bonus from the slotting, not the actual power.
Example - you slot a power for 56% defense buff. DR hits that 56% and lowers it to 51%. It doesn't affect the base defense bonus granted by the power.
The second way that DR hits, is against totals. It won't hit the bonus granted by each power individually, only the total for each attribute granted by any powers/buffs/sets you have.
Example - you have 10% Defense from TT:M, 12% from an ice shield, and 6.26% from slotting some set bonuses. DR doesn't hit each of those individually, but hits the total granted. So the 28.26% Defenses then gets DR'd.
If you put that all together, and on paper want to find out your exact attribute numbers...
- Choose your attribute, and check any powers/buffs/bonuses sets you have.
- Apply DR to the enhancement bonus on all those powers/buffs.
- Add up the total bonus granted by all the powers/buffs/sets.
- Apply DR to the total bonus granted by all the powers/buffs/sets.
That's the simplest way I could think to describe it.
The part where it really gets confusing is figuring out all the curves for the attribute mods etc. The parameters are different per attribute, archetype, and aspects inside the attributes. There is no real easy way to explain it without getting pretty deep into math.
Something like diminishing returns sounds like something a signed NDA might be used for. All I can speculate is that I20 will probably involve some kind of massive change to CoH current gameplay and setup. How CoH is currently being played will change once I20 goes live and will involve players having to relearn how to play the game.
Aside from diminishing returns and the incarnate system, here's some of my speculations.
1) The devs are doing away with the enhancement system and will implement a new way to raise the stats on player characters.
2) Changes to the powersets, some powers will be removed from sets, others will be shuffled around, and those that remain will be altered (buffed or debuffed).
3) A new leveling system, defeating enemies or completing missions no longer grant xp but a new method will be introduced.
4) Paragon studio attempts to cash in on the facebook game craze and thus all players will be forced to reveal their real names in game and on the forums in order to play.
Paragon Unleashed Forums
Twitter: @Alpha_Ryvius
There will be FOUR body models in I20: Female, Male, Huge, and Neener Neener, which will be a silicon-based life-form that looks rather like oversized pizza toppings (with extra cheese) spilled across a section of shag carpeting.
Which will look AWESOME with the new Dual Pistol 'Freem Beam Emitters'.
Yup, yup.
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No. everything is effected by Dr. |
Originally Posted by Zikar
The more I think about it, the more I wonder Diminishing Returns is really as bad as people say... I mean, it doesn't effect a solo character right? Just buffs from the same powers? So, only a few powers would be effected by this, or teams that had say, two bubblers or something... but even then it wouldn't negate the benefit of two bubblers completely, just take the team down a notch.
Am I missing something? |
DR is not specific to de/buffs. each attribute has a certain value and after that value, you gain less for what you put in (the bungie cord analogy was much better than my own)
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| I don't really have much idea exactly what DR is - all I know is that post-I13, I was getting held a lot less in PvP, so I only have positive feelings about it |
Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
They day they introduce DR to general PvE players is the day I give someone all my stuff and leave the game for good. Not doom crying, and I seriously doubt it would happen, but if there's one thing that would make me rage-quit, it would be that.
Stacking buffs/debuffs, and getting the most out of every scenario is what makes combat fun for me in this game. Take that away, and there's really nothing left to keep me interested.
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This could very well be it. They not only want testers they can trust but want to be able to really punish them if they leak critical info.|
Originally Posted by Chase_Arcanum
Why would I want the added security of a for-print SIGNED NDA?
While, besides what's mentioned: 1) They're experimenting with new ideas that MIGHT be drastic and MIGHT NOT be used at all. It's chock full of these experiments, and many will likely not see the light of day. There were a few of these in GR's CB, but I could see Incarnates making more extreme measures. Normally, they'd try to do this entirely within the staff and friends & family, but incarnates has things that are group-based and you need to see how these scale with multiple mixes, so they want to add a few more players. 2) They're worried about how far out it is and what can be done in that timeframe. You have a new mechanic that can be as MMO-changing as sidekicking/mentoring was. You need to test it often and early, but you're also concerned... if I19 releases this fall, then I20 will fall after the winter-break lull, likely closer to spring. An aggressive competitor COULD see it, copy it, and beat you to market... or to the patent office... if they get in CB. Print NDA's mean real names & addresses, so competing devs can't hide behind aliases or family members. 3) Their legal team had a change of comfort levels. Terms in NCSoft's EULA were largely discarded by the judge handling the latest lawsuit (hawaii guy suing NCSoft for making a too-addictive game) so they may have decided that an NDA using same effective mechanic is too weak legally to rely on. |
Anyhow, my guess is that issue 20 will bring some sort of major User Interface revamp. Something like that would need a lot of time for testing and could cause a lot of panic with veteran players if not handled well.
Issue 20: The Event Seven Years In The Making!
(Drum roll, please.)
It's the City of Heroes Universe, Marvel Universe, DC Universe, Champions (Pen and Paper) Universe CROSSOVER EVENT OF THE MILLENNIUM!
Statesman.
Captain America.
Superman.
Some Iconic Champions Guy.
WHOSE SIDE ...
... WILL YOU JOIN?
(P.S. Sorry for leaking this, War Witch and Positron, but it had to be done, the world deserves the truth!)
@Captain-Electric � Detective Marvel � The Sapien Spider � Moravec Man � The Old Norseman
Dark-Eyes � Doctor Serpentine � Stonecaster � Skymaiden � The Blue Jaguar
Guide to Altitis � A Comic for New Players � The Lore Project � Intro to extraterrestrials in CoH
one thought, i dont think its the animation thing, too many characters have the option of doing kicking techniques that would look horrid without rooting. other heroic mmo doesn't un-root all powers, and the ones that are usable moving look awful in a lot of cases. I significantly doubt that would be doable here nor that it would look good.