Crazy Issue 20 Theories
By
Afterimage,
Posted on: 2010-09-16 11:13 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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My mind is blown. Definitely gets me thinking about the future of the storyline.
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Originally Posted by Chase_Arcanum
Incarnate system full-blown--- I could see adding 2-3 "levels" at once, but since posi said their ultimate goal is to add something incarnate to all future issues, I wouldn't expect more.
The coming storm won't be an invasion from Praetoria. That wouldn't fit with the broad allusions we've heard since. The "Coming Storm" that is alluded to seems to be affecting the whole multiverse... seems to be akin to things like the "infinite earths" DC crisis. My guess is we're already seeing some of the initial effects of the storm ever since dark mirror introduced our dopplegangers. Since this is a thread for baseless conjecture, here's mine for the "coming storm": Whoever sets things in motion (a nemesis plot?) he may be inspired by Recluse's Victory and/or Project Destiny. In those, Recluse isn't satisfied with knowing that he wins on some other dimension, he want to bind that dimension to this one, bringing his victory here... colliding those dimensions and all their occupants together. The difference here, though, is this is a "storm" of dimensions colliding into themselves... coalescing with primal earth. It will set off wars and struggles of epic proportion as reality itself twists and cracks to make room for conflicting histories and the myriad possibilities whittling down to one true reality. Some of our doppleganger encounters are from the earliest incidences... the worlds closet to our own starting to merge over... we're not "merged" with them due to our experineces in sidestepping outside the timestream / dimension hopping. Things will only grow more dangerous as the storm proceeds. Incarnates... spread across all these issues... will deal with these cosmic metaspace collisions. We're talking Issues 20, 21, 22+ After the multiverse crashes, one world will emerge. Mender Silos is trying to set things in motion to guarantee his desired outcome. Our mystery letter-writer (Tyrant?) has his own objectives. Their goal is to influence what this world will be- perhaps to be the gods that make the next world, whether benevolent or in malice. We fight for or against these parties to save what we hold dear or grasp at the power we want for ourselves... battling to the very last moment of existence... when all goes white. At that point, a new city will emerge. Its past and present will be crafted from the remnants of the once-divided universes, and people will remember it as if it had always been that way... because it has. Parts will resemble Praetoria, Paragon, and even the Rogue Isles (all ultramoded) and its inhabitants will be us... and not. This begins CoH's equivalent of DC's "One Year Later" and Marvel's "Heroes Reborn"-- a reimagining of our world and the heroes within it. A universe that's not quite like the one we see as afterimages as we dream of battles that we don't really remember participating in. It'll be a new city... and world... that's in desperate need of heroes, again. The City of Heroes will be over. Welcome to City of Heroes 2.0. |
I like Chase's ideas.
My crazy Issue 20 theory: A roll back of some or most of I13 pvp, planting the seeds for pvp missions in the future, and some form of DR being turned on WHEN AND ONLY WHEN you activate your incarnate abilities. Turn them off (the on/off trigger would be be on a cool-down after you used it in either direction) then the DR goes off.
And finally a new type of respec system which allows you to remove and replace one power or one slot if you choose.
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Scabbards!
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Originally Posted by GhoulSlayer
 It was posted on the CoH facebook page on Sept. 3rd with the caption, "What could this mean? Find out at the City of Heroes panel at Pax Prime tomorrow morning!" Could it mean that they are working on an auto-teaming system? If you attended that panel and it doesn't break the NDA could you let us know? |
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To be fair, I think the main reason why GW was designed with a Mag 100 hold was so that it would be non-trivial for players to bypass with one or two applications of certain powers, since the only way around stacking multiple powers is to put bigger numbers on the table.|
Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
And even if DR does come to PVE, what makes people think it would be Enhancement Diversification all over again? Sure, you probably won't be able to Clear Mind-stack your way out of Ghost Widow's hold. Is it reasonable to expect that you should be able to do so against a Mag100 hold to begin with? Should a Blaster with the right IOs have better defense than a Tanker with SOs?
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Yet, players still found a way to circumvent it, leading to Castle toying around with the whole nerf to CM in the first place.
If some sort of DR were implemented in PvE, it would require multiple passes, not just for player abilities, but also to see how it interacts with NPC encounters. That would require a bit of extra play testing and data mining, especially before being in a place that could be presented in a positive light to players ("Yeah we put in DR, but we tested it against all of these scenarios and made these further adjustments..."). That's the sort of thing you'd want under strict NDA so that soemone doesn't flip out and start badmouthing the changed wholesale before devs can make adjustments or before players even get a chance to judge it for themselves.
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Really, the only way an I13 rollback would occur is if travel suppression wasn't necessary. Which leads back to reworking player models to be able to move and attack simultaneously. Otherwise, you're right back to PvP being a club for only Super Jump or Super Speed.
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
My crazy Issue 20 theory: A roll back of some or most of I13 pvp, planting the seeds for pvp missions in the future, and some form of DR being turned on WHEN AND ONLY WHEN you activate your incarnate abilities. Turn them off (the on/off trigger would be be on a cool-down after you used it in either direction) then the DR goes off.
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Scabbards and other new back options (backpacks, costume jet packs, fixed wings, etc.) are one of those tall tales like Bigfoot or the Loch Ness Monster |
Originally Posted by Diggis
Scabbards!
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You'll see some interesting, fuzzy pictures, but you'll never see them in Atlas Park. Would love to be proven wrong some day though
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It looked more like Steel Canyon to me...
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Originally Posted by Obsidius
Scabbards and other new back options (backpacks, costume jet packs, fixed wings, etc.) are one of those tall tales like Bigfoot or the Loch Ness Monster
You'll see some interesting, fuzzy pictures, but you'll never see them in Atlas Park. Would love to be proven wrong some day though |
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I never mentioned anything about encouraging people to quit. If I thought that was the appropriate course of action then I would not be here. I did not ask anything of you, as I wouldn't know what to ask. The developers created a system for a target audience, the target audience did not like the product they created. They made no changes to the product to make it more attractive, and didn't switch back to the old model which proved to be more popular. Overwhelming feedback for either case goes unheeded; if I had an answer I'd provide it.|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
And what pray tell do you expect the pvers to do about it?
Quit? When the pvpers won't? That makes NO LOGICAL SENSE WHATSOEVER. As I said before MANY a pver also complained after testing the proposed I13 changes that they sucked. Yet (I feel like a ******* broken record) they too were ignored. THAT somehow keeps getting glossed over by many (notice I didn't say all) pvpers. |
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
The pvers taunting are idiots. However the ones who say NOTHING about because they don't care about pvp most definitely do not need or deserve the stupidity often pointed their way.
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
EDIT: To turn your analogy right back at you, if I saw you getting bullied and having your candy taken away, I'd go to a teacher. Except in this case the teacher and the bully taking your candy are on and the same. The teacher would just smile and say "it builds character, trust me I know what I'm doing". soooooo, there isn't much that either of us could do besides walk off the playground. However, I LIKE the playground despite the bullying.
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Errrrm, it still mostly is. This didn't change much at all, in fact teleport got gutted. (in I12 there used to be plenty of Assassin Strike, followup attack to get kill, then tp away to safety stalkers [and other classes], you don't see that anymore due to how travel suppression makes tp very difficult to use.) Fly is slightly better but still FAILS if someone hits you with an immob.|
Originally Posted by Obsidius
Really, the only way an I13 rollback would occur is if travel suppression wasn't necessary. Which leads back to reworking player models to be able to move and attack simultaneously. Otherwise, you're right back to PvP being a club for only Super Jump or Super Speed.
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sooooo, I13 DID NOT CHANGE "PvP being a club for only Super Jump or Super Speed".
so yeah if that's the only hold up, they're good to go for the rollback.
EDIT: And just in case you don't believe me step into RV one night and observe how many players have sj/ss versus how many have flight and lolteleport. I already know the answer but humor me.
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Fair enough. |
Originally Posted by LuxunS
I never mentioned anything about encouraging people to quit. If I thought that was the appropriate course of action then I would not be here. I did not ask anything of you, as I wouldn't know what to ask. The developers created a system for a target audience, the target audience did not like the product they created. They made no changes to the product to make it more attractive, and didn't switch back to the old model which proved to be more popular. Overwhelming feedback for either case goes unheeded; if I had an answer I'd provide it.
I was not attempting to condone their actions, merely trying to provide some insight. Yea the playground is nice, and you might like it enough to stay and endure the bullying. But it seems every month more kids think about leaving the playground and going to the one across town; they get to have fun and don't have to deal with bullies. I hear in 2 months a nice shiny new playground is being built a few blocks away and these bullies can't go there. |
On that last part actually as pver they're not enduring any bullying cause they don't care to have the candy (ie couldn't care less about pvp and never will)
And yeah there is a new shiny playground being built, except that the TEACHER (SOE) doesn't have a very good track record. In fact they have a track record of raising the playground with fire and then re-building a new one while ignoring all feedback. TWICE (SWG's CU and NGE debacles which made ED and I13 look like child's play).
Just warning you ahead of time.
EDIT: Even with that said I'm going to give that playground (god this no talking about other games rule can be annoying) a try. It might become my second errr, playground. Why? Cause I like DC. After enduring some of the most legendary revamps (purple patch, ED, CU, NGE, etc, etc) there's nothing any developer can do that can shock me, so I'm good. I also won't be pvping over there, as I've come to distinct realization that there will never be a well balanced pvp mmo system.
As an aside a recent other playground (A strange Potentially large Bullying ground one
) recently shut down. Two problems that lead to it: hackers and the impossibility to balance their pvp. As i said: I've come to distinct realization that there will never be a well balanced pvp mmo system. Hell the largest playground currently has had class and ability revisions EVERY patch since it's existence and they still haven't gotten their pvp (or pve for that matter) balance right.If I want competitive play I'll stick to my old FPS playgrounds.
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Well we still don't know what all the Incarnate slots do, so at least one of them may be for this purpose.
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Originally Posted by Duncan_Frost
Two words: signature powers.
I mean, c'mon, the suggestion's been stickied for three years! |
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This never changed. Teleport doesn't work in pvp so that's out. Fly is too slow to pursue anyone and is tactically a poor option. There are too many ways to disable it, from webnades to immobilizes or attacks with -fly. |
Originally Posted by Obsidius
Otherwise, you're right back to PvP being a club for only Super Jump or Super Speed.
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Super Speed was pretty much always the standard and still is. Since i13, slows do pretty much nothing, it is the best option. Super Jump offers some vertical mobility and allows speeders to get close enough to fliers to ground them and make them helpless. It is not as much a necessity.
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Yea I played EQ before Verant sold it to SOE, and I also played a Creature Handler in SWG, and that was completely removed from the game. The first year or 2 are usually fine. EQ2 hasn't been destroyed yet. Vanguard, eh.|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
TWICE (SWG's CU and NGE debacles which made ED and I13 look like child's play).
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I'm getting used to it.
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Maybe they will call this big system the Incarnate System?|
Originally Posted by Obsidius
It means they're probably working on a system, a big system; probably bigger than the Alignment System (which didn't require a signed NDA), but maybe something as big as the Architect System (which did require a signed NDA).
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Honesatly, I don't see it being any of the other things mentioned. Changes to PvP wouldn't be a big deal. I see no reason for DR in PvE due to incarnate abilities, since the Incarnate stuff only works at level 50 and they already have the level shift mechanic to add a form of DR for that.
Its probably 5 ish levels of Incarnate stuff and all the new content, enemies and possibly zone(s) to go along with that.
Plus some other cool stuff.
Always remember, we were Heroes.
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I would hope this would the OMEGA slot. It would be a good capper for the first 10 Incarnate Slots.
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Originally Posted by Lazarus
Well we still don't know what all the Incarnate slots do, so at least one of them may be for this purpose.
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I19 already has the tf and first slot of the Incarnate system. Seeing as how Posi already said they are releasing them over time I don't see them putting 9 slots into issue 20.|
Originally Posted by Dr_Darkspeed
Maybe they will call this big system the Incarnate System?
Honesatly, I don't see it being any of the other things mentioned. Changes to PvP wouldn't be a big deal. I see no reason for DR in PvE due to incarnate abilities, since the Incarnate stuff only works at level 50 and they already have the level shift mechanic to add a form of DR for that. Its probably 5 ish levels of Incarnate stuff and all the new content, enemies and possibly zone(s) to go along with that. Plus some other cool stuff. |
I can see them putting in DR JUST FOR Incarnate missions.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
I19 is giving Fitness to everyone, thus encouraging more powers diversity (in theory, I forsee a lot more Leadership).
So with that in mind, I think they are developing more powers for every set. Much like with Kheldians opening up usually 2 powers per tier, all other AT's will get similar treatment.
It's a crazy theory, but it would be pretty cool.
Crazy Issue 20 Theories?
Lightsabers. That is all.
What?
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I think the only tangible reason why the I20 beta NDA is a "more serious" written one this time is because of one thing: DCUO. |
Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
I think that the existence of a written NDA isn't conclusive (or crcumstantial) evidence of anything except the fact they're getting tired of people taking the unwritten NDA as seriously.
Basically, the closed beta system has been an evolving process. Consider this another step in the evolution and wait to speculate on content when we have some facts. |
I assume that our Devs consider the impending release of DCUO as a credible and serious threat to the playerbase of this game. More than any other time our Devs don't want the "competition" to know what they are doing. I hope the Devs are planning for big things in order to counter the threat DCUO represents. I figure whatever speculation we have for the future of CoH must take the impact of DCUO into account.
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I said 5 (ish) slots though, and are you assuming that I19 won't be part of the I20 beta? if so, how are people gonna be unlocking their Incarnate stuff? I'd guess when I20 goes live we'll have the first half or so of the Incarnate system, given that they seemed to have that far planned out (based on the leak on Test).|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
I19 already has the tf and first slot of the Incarnate system. Seeing as how Posi already said they are releasing them over time I don't see them putting 9 slots into issue 20.
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DR for Incarnate missions is a possibility, but... not sure how that would work. being an Incarnate makes you weaker than not being one?
Always remember, we were Heroes.
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This times infinity brazillion. You can't balance PVP in any game where one player (or character) gets access to something that another doesn't.|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
I've come to distinct realization that there will never be a well balanced pvp mmo system.
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That balancing act was attempted in Issue 13. Most of the changes went too far (they turned the dial to 11 when a 3 or 4 would have sufficed), but I honestly believe that every thing they changed was necessary for something that at least resembles balance. Travel Suppression (in theory) puts melee-only ATs in a position to strike back at ranged attackers... but it went too far and slowed everything down to a crawl. Diminishing Returns (in theory) limits the effectiveness of min/maxers versus casual players and large teams versus small ones... but it went too far and made buff ATs nearly useless. Heal Suppression (in theory) makes it so someone can't win a fight just by popping more green insps or Aid Self... but it went too far and crippled powersets like Regen whose base mitigation is to heal from damage spikes. The changes to mezzing (in theory) make it so that someone can't be chain held to death over the course of five very boring minutes... but it went too far and now mez ATs are just another ranged damage AT in PVP that happen to be able to stop someone in their tracks for as long as it takes to sneeze.
Anyway, the PVP community is not faultless with the current state of PVP. I was in the i13 beta (mostly complaining because I hate Day Jobs so @#$^ing much). I watched the PVP community burn their bridges when Castle and the other developers were actually listening to feedback. I continued to watch while the PVPers filled that gap with toxic waste and then lit it on fire too. I stopped watching when they tried to wade through the burning sewage and demand that the devs pay attention to them again.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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also note that a large reason no one takes fly is because of all the -fly powers around. |
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Errrrm, it still mostly is. This didn't change much at all, in fact teleport got gutted. (in I12 there used to be plenty of Assassin Strike, followup attack to get kill, then tp away to safety stalkers [and other classes], you don't see that anymore due to how travel suppression makes tp very difficult to use.) Fly is slightly better but still FAILS if someone hits you with an immob.
sooooo, I13 DID NOT CHANGE "PvP being a club for only Super Jump or Super Speed". so yeah if that's the only hold up, they're good to go for the rollback. EDIT: And just in case you don't believe me step into RV one night and observe how many players have sj/ss versus how many have flight and lolteleport. I already know the answer but humor me. |
it also used to be very slow but i'd imagine that since the fly speed increase that isn't as much of an issue anymore.
but, for example, PB nova's are very successful in zones.
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| Anyway, the PVP community is not faultless with the current state of PVP. I was in the i13 beta (mostly complaining because I hate Day Jobs so @#$^ing much). I watched the PVP community burn their bridges when Castle and the other developers were actually listening to feedback. I continued to watch while the PVPers filled that gap with toxic waste and then lit it on fire too. |
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Why all of a sudden now do pvpers care what pvers think? If you want folks to speak up for you perhaps you shouldn't do everything in your power to alienate them. Just saying. |
EDITED FOR OBSIDIUS
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| I was in RV on Wednesday. Several players had fly, but admiteddly, I can't remember anyone with TP. So although I'll admit that TP is still left in the dust where PvP is concerned, my PvP-lame Stone/ Axe Tank wi th Fly has an easier time participating in PvP with the current rules |
Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
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I was in RV on Wednesday. Several players had fly, but admiteddly, I can't remember anyone with TP. So although I'll admit that TP is still left in the dust where PvP is concerned, my PvP-lame Stone/ Axe Tank wi th Fly has an easier time participating in PvP with the current rules.|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Errrrm, it still mostly is. This didn't change much at all, in fact teleport got gutted. (in I12 there used to be plenty of Assassin Strike, followup attack to get kill, then tp away to safety stalkers [and other classes], you don't see that anymore due to how travel suppression makes tp very difficult to use.) Fly is slightly better but still FAILS if someone hits you with an immob.
sooooo, I13 DID NOT CHANGE "PvP being a club for only Super Jump or Super Speed". so yeah if that's the only hold up, they're good to go for the rollback. EDIT: And just in case you don't believe me step into RV one night and observe how many players have sj/ss versus how many have flight and lolteleport. I already know the answer but humor me. |
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Originally Posted by LuxunS
This never changed. Teleport doesn't work in pvp so that's out. Fly is too slow to pursue anyone and is tactically a poor option. There are too many ways to disable it, from webnades to immobilizes or attacks with -fly.
Super Speed was pretty much always the standard and still is. Since i13, slows do pretty much nothing, it is the best option. Super Jump offers some vertical mobility and allows speeders to get close enough to fliers to ground them and make them helpless. It is not as much a necessity. |
In fact, PvP is the only reason I use Air Superiority, slotted with +Acc. Besides, there's nothing better for kiting than fly (flying above someone's SJ ceiling), but I guess that makes Fly better for Zone PvP than the Arena.Back on topic though, and not getting stuck on a single point, the reason I13 travel suppression was to help level the playing field (its questionably results debated above). Revamping the animation rig for independent upper / lower torso would be something entirely new (for CoH anyhow), and might do to even the playing field even further
... but upon further thought, might replace one set of problems with another.
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
As i said: I've come to distinct realization that there will never be a well balanced pvp mmo system.
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The fly speed increase was only to the base fly speed. It didn't affect the maximum fly speed; the cap is still the same. The reason PBs can be successful is not so much because of the flight, but the extreme range their powers can be fired from. (100 base range, toss in some Centrioles and you can shoot from over 150ft. nearly double the average range.) Combined with travel suppression, it can be nasty.|
Originally Posted by PC_guy
it also used to be very slow but i'd imagine that since the fly speed increase that isn't as much of an issue anymore.
but, for example, PB nova's are very successful in zones. |
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Originally Posted by Obsidius
What's the difference between attacking a flier with -fly powers and attacking a SSer with slow powers?
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But here's the thing. While the PvP community didn't ask for *those* changes, they did ask for change. To be honest, the complaints I hear now don't really sound all that different from the ones I heard pre-I13. PvP was broken, it was unbalanced, it wasn't as fun as it should be, the devs weren't spending enough time addressing the concerns of the PvP community, they weren't doing enough to keep experienced PvPers and to attract new ones. The zones were empty, not enough people used the arena, they were tired of dealing with badgers who didn't want to fight, and so on and so forth.
The only difference is that now all the complaints are aimed at the new system. You guys sound like widows who pretend their deceased husband was a saint even though they fought with him constantly while he was alive. And I can't really blame the devs for not seeing a difference in beta between PvPers honestly having a problem with the changes, and just complaining because it's not perfect.
Pre-I13 PvP was had issues that REALLY limited its participation to a narrow group that had a particular mindset. Where THEY saw the problems and what I recall THEY were advocating for was, in a way, something that would only reinforce that isolation and narrow the group further.
The devs wanted to do something different- they asked, 'what would widen the appeal of PvP to more people?" and thought that widening the range of viable builds, lessening the rock-paper-scissors effects of some of the extremes, and dampening down on the possible extreme team builds would have that effect. They wanted more casual PvP'ers to enjoy PvP.
What they missed was that all the changes they did, while theoretically meeting those desired goals, made something that performed so different from the PvE that the casuals didn't want to commit time to playing and that was so antithetical to the wants of the existing PvP'ers that their rage would be neverending. heck, that uproar was so loud that many of the potential players this might have appealed to made up their minds without even trying.