Tweets of the PAX Panel
By
abnormal_joe,
Posted on: 2010-09-04 10:38 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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If anything, that is one of the bits of info that i liked from the panel. The developers did the additional work to flesh out the praetorian content based on player feedback, thats not a bad thing to know. from what i gathered, the addition of stuff at that stage was not an insignificant amount of work.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
when did listening to player feedback become a bad thing?
I'm glad they're taking the time to improve the system rather than shoving it out the door before it's ready. |
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Originally Posted by Venture
No. It won't.
You can take the exact build you have now and not change it at all, except you get to add three powers that don't get any slots. This does not "make the build tighter" because you haven't lost anything you already had. All that's happening is you're not gaining as much more as you would like, but since what you're getting is free that's not really a fair complaint. |
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Originally Posted by Dysmal
You're really not doing anything of the sort, and your reasoning is pretty fundamentally flawed. You don't have any less slots to allocate than you did before.
In fact, with three more power choices to use, with just their base slots, you have three more slots on a character to stick IOs in that you didn't have before. And if you didn't take all four fitness powers before, and Swift and Hurdle remain seperate powers, you actually have four more slots to stick IOs in. Sure, you won't be able to full slot out these powers, but so what? There are many powers that are useful with no extra added slots. |
I don't think yall understand what he is saying. In this context tighter build simply means less slots per power. Which is true.
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You're taking offense to something that was not meant to be offensive.|
Originally Posted by PhoenixKnight_NA
im sorry but i take full outrage fot this comment. ill choise what ever power i want. i had a friend that in his full "wisdom" choise to tell me how to spec out MY character. even went as far as telling our mutual friend to send through a respec trial. i went through ti and choise the so out of spite.
now you might think leadership is god. but to me its not. i would rather choise a "selfish power as you call it." to help me survive. ive soloed for 2 years in a row. in that time i made myself a good player solo and team. regardless od power choises. now that i can have fitness i can choise the fighting power pool to fill in some of the holes in my characters. |
'Selfish' used in context refers to 'solo mentality'.
If you had actually read the limited posts I've made in this thread you would not have made the comment you just made, seeing as how I even stated the EXACT thing you just did about some players taking the fighting pool.
Some of you guys kneejerk so hard I wonder if you kick yourselves in the head sometimes. Which of course leads to further comprehension failures and subsequent kneejerks due to the head trauma.
For what it's worth I haven't said anything negative about inherent fitness with the exception of contending the notion that power creep is either non existent or trivial. On the contrary the potential of team power creep is very large indeed. Whether it is realized in game or not and whether the devs are concerned one way or the other is largely irrelevant to my statement. The potential to pretty much never have a 'bad pug experience' as a result of poor players or inappropriate difficulty in the 20+ game is now there for anyone that wants it. I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing either. Killing +3-4's at lvl 20 like they are +1-2's sounds fun to me.
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lol. You sure are sensitive.
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Originally Posted by PhoenixKnight_NA
im sorry but i take full outrage fot this comment.
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When you look at it from a number of slots vs number of powers I suppose that is true. HOWEVER that doesnt mean EXISTING CURRENT BUILDS will be invalidated or harmed in any way by this change|
Originally Posted by MunkiLord
I don't think yall understand what he is saying. In this context tighter build simply means less slots per power. Which is true.
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Those builds can stay exactly as they are with 3 mule slot powers or 3 utility non-slot needing powers.
Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30
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CoV's signed beta phase must have been the very initial steps [I'd suggest the Friends & Family-esque type stage]. The digital sign from the download link and the community forums may be what they meant, but that's difficult to say.|
Originally Posted by PeerlessGirl
We actually went over this in a thread where people were posting wating to get into loyalty beta. PS has never "made us sign an NDA" not even a digital one. All they've done in every beta previous is ASK NICELY that people respect a list of terms we've all come to call "the NDA" if you broke it, and they found out, you were removed from Beta, and barred from future betas at their discretion.
For "Real" Betas. (Microsoft Products, the Japanese PS2-based Beta of FFXI I was in, many game-launch betas especially by SOE). You either electronically sign a legal document, or in the case of the "Japanese PS2-Beta" I had a physical document of serveral pages mailed to me in a fed ex mailer, I read through it, signed and dated it, then mailed it back to Sony, it also delt with how I would return the hardware at the end of the period, etc. etc. When you sign a true "signed NDA" of those natures, either physically or electronically, you can actually be sued by the company for breach of contract and things of that nature. Doesn't mean they WILL, but they CAN. So no, we've never "signed" an NDA since i9, the first "Closed Beta". I've heard/been told that the original CoV Beta had a signed NDA in some form, as did, probably the original CoH Beta. Personally I'm surprised we didn't sign one for the GR Beta, but given the nature of the loyalty rewards program and all that confusion, I suspect it was "more trouble than it was worth". So either stuff in i20 is SO big they want extra security, or they've just tired of the leaks and things they've had in the past, and have decided to move to a "real" beta model, and require signed NDAs from then on. One or the other. Short answer: Yeah, it's very different, and no, we've never signed one before. |
Personally I hope my pessimistic view of what I20 could be to require Serious Bzns NDA is wrong. But that's going to be my assumption until stated elsewise
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Let's Dance!
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Until a year ago I lived down that way. That is a long way to go to put the respec system out of its misery.
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Originally Posted by Venture
The whole existing respec system needs to be taken out back, shot in the head and thrown in a shallow grave out past Terlingua.
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Taking It On the Chin I-16 Tanker Guide
Repeat Offenders
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Obviously. I don't recall Kheldarn saying builds would be harmed, and I know I didn't. So your responses imply some kind of misunderstanding.
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Originally Posted by Kyriani
When you look at it from a number of slots vs number of powers I suppose that is true. HOWEVER that doesnt mean EXISTING CURRENT BUILDS will be invalidated or harmed in any way by this change
Those builds can stay exactly as they are with 3 mule slot powers or 3 utility non-slot needing powers. |
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not really, i dont like when someone comes and says i need to do this or do that. |
Originally Posted by MunkiLord
lol. You sure are sensitive.
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I'll take a stab at explaining it.|
Originally Posted by MunkiLord
I don't think yall understand what he is saying. In this context tighter build simply means less slots per power. Which is true.
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Currently we have 24 power picks and 3 inherent powers that can be slotted.
We get 67 additional slots.
67/27 = 2.48 added slots per power available.
By making fitness inherent and still slottable we add 3 more powers to the total.
67/30 = 2.23 added slots per power available.
By definition a build that took stamina before will be tighter.
The positives far outweigh the negatives, but it is undeniable that if someone wants to swap in powers that are slot hungry they will have to stretch the existing slots over more powers.
ie. Yay I can fit my patron pet in now. Darn I'd really like to add 3-4 slots to it so it performs better. Ergo tighter build. Which is why you've seen several people drawing attention to powers that don't require any/much additional slotting, which in that case it's a terrific bonus with no additional build construct woes.
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Castle said you NEED to respec to take advantage of this change if you already have fitness selected. Oh the outrage you must be feeling |
Originally Posted by PhoenixKnight_NA
not really, i dont like when someone comes and says i need to do this or do that.
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just buggin'. I wasn't trying to tell anyone the NEED to do anything. I was just pointing out what I see as some of the best options for those that are happy with their builds and are looking for 3 powers to swap in for the fitness branch that perform very well with no added slots.
In fact I know I wasn't trying to command people to do anything because I stated it was my opinion at the very end signified by 'IMO'. I also know I wasn't commanding people because it takes so few people making the decision to pick leadership for teams to be able to tackle significantly more difficult content. And by difficult content I include things like teams that current skip over problematic enemy factions like arachnos or malta in favor of freaks and council. I'm certainly not commanding anyone though, just highlighting some of the options that could make the game more varied and enjoyable for players. Sorry you took offense to that.
But no one is actually going to be worse off because of this - your build will either stay the same as it is now, or you'll be able to add some new powers to it.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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In a meaningless, pedantic sense.| By definition a build that took stamina before will be tighter. |
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| ie. Yay I can fit my patron pet in now. Darn I'd really like to add 3-4 slots to it so it performs better. Ergo tighter build. |
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
In point of fact we will be getting some extra slots. The base slots in the four new inherents. While folks tend to focus on slotting sets in the 4-6 slot range there is actually a lot that can be done with base slots and IOs.
Taking It On the Chin I-16 Tanker Guide
Repeat Offenders
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This.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
But no one is actually going to be worse off because of this - your build will either stay the same as it is now, or you'll be able to add some new powers to it.
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No, really. This is the net effect.
You get to choose more powers IF YOU WANT TO DO SO (assuming you already have Fitness as a pool power). The down-side is that you don't get any more enhancement slots than you already have to use on the additional powers. You have to figure out what works best for you with the SAME number of enhancement slots.
- B.
Crey Threat Assessment: Bayne
Virtueverse: Bayne
The Defenders of Paragon
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You've posted so much in this thread AND I'm the one who likes to "hear" themselves talk?|
Originally Posted by PeerlessGirl
Getting kind of tired of this "they moved back all the Incarnate levels" stuff people are spewing in a few posts in this thread. Were you in i18 closed beta at all? If not, a lot of it will be lost, but even then Positron copied his CB post into the open forums for everyone to see regarding the SNEAK PREVIEW INCARNATE SLOT removal. He explained that it was a sneak preview, not a full release of the system, that it wasn't ever intended for GR, but was added in as a peek at what was coming/bonus. It got removed because they had to slap together a hacknied reward system to facilitate unlocking it, and there was no content to really use and test it on, because the content that goes with it wasn't there, as it was just a preview. Also, people in the CB complained (rightly so) that it didn't make enough of a difference to their characters, and that there was no "lore" to back up how we got the Incarnate abilities, or what allowed such a thing within the framework of CoH. Both of those are being addressed by pulling the slot, reworking it, and waiting until some of the content is there to support it. The one slot was the only thing covered. all 10 of them were not going to be released at the same time, and they still won't. Positron has covered this a few times as well. They've flat admitted that i19 is "The stuff we didn't have time for while working on GR". Just like i7 was basically "The stuff we couldn't work into CoV (i.e. Mayhem Missions, Level cap to 50 increase, PPPs etc.). That's no different than has ever happened before.
Sometimes I think people just complain to "hear" themselves talk. |
Just pointing out the fact that these guys don't know what their player base wants, maybe they should try playing the game a lil more often. It's funny that something as trivial as inherent fitness that could have been done anytime within the past six years is now the major selling point only because they are running thin on ideas instead of implemented years ago.
A crap ton more stuff to do, or at least the smidgeon that we are getting with i19 should have been thought out enough to be implemented with the "expansion" that was purchased and not have to wait till they ration it out for god knows how long. But hey what do I know, I like PvP and when they say things are in the works I know to trust that within three years "maybe" something will get done. Since there's not much left to PvP with I am forced to find my end-game content elsewhere for the time being. I'd rather they just fixed PvP so I never have to come to these boards and get demonized because I voice an opinion that their vision and efforts are lacking most times and that they pander to the select group and fail to recognize fault when a minority is upset about something.
Failure to agree with a minorities vision is not "fault" or a "mistake" it is a simple business choice. You have to spend your assets in such a way as to please the majority. All of us take our turn being in the minority.
Taking It On the Chin I-16 Tanker Guide
Repeat Offenders
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Pretty much this right here... at worst you get to take 3 more powers that you where not using before that you don't have to slot or even put on your action bars. No one is going to show up put a gun to your head and make you slot those new powers. You can have your build just as it is now with three extras that you can completely ignore and your play will remain the same.|
Originally Posted by Emperor_Justin
If you are already using the fitness pool on a build and have it slotted, having it inherent and slotted isn't going to change anything except giving you three empty spots for 3 new powers which you do not have to slot at all. nobody is forcing you. Anybody saying "But this is going to make my build really hard/tight for slots!" well, that's only true if you consider your current build really hard, or tight for slots.
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The only draw back here is since everyone will have fitness we might see new content planned around the idea of higher HP/Regen End/Recovery.
I'm enjoying the attempts by some to convince us that something that used to cost something and was optional is better than having that same something be free (and better than before since we'll all have Swift AND Jump on every character instead of choosing one or the other) and inherent.
You guys want something to do with your 50s? Here's something to do. Figure out how to make do with having Inherent Fitness and come up with a different build. Then go take that build and start earning your Incarnate slots.
Loose --> not tight.
Lose --> Did not win, misplace, cannot find, subtract.
One extra 'o' makes a big difference.
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If by meaningless and pedantic you mean accurate and correct then yes I agree.|
Originally Posted by Venture
In a meaningless, pedantic sense.
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| Except you couldn't have the patron pet at all before. |
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
But no one is actually going to be worse off because of this - your build will either stay the same as it is now, or you'll be able to add some new powers to it.
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However, saying the build is tighter isn't meant to imply such negative connotation I'm pretty sure it is you guys that are implying all the negativity into posts that the posters aren't intending.
In fact if you were to read the posts I've made in this thread you'd see where I pointed out that this is a tremendous buff to anyone that wants to take advantage of it. I've gone so far as to say that people that choose so will be the exact opposite of 'worse off'. They'll be blowing through difficult team content like a recharge capped pre-nerf shield scrapper could go through even cons.
But you guys are free to continue insinuating things. I wouldn't dream of a cox thread that was otherwise.
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You're not going to get anything approaching that number.|
Originally Posted by Nicetry
It only takes one person per pug really.
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Taking Vengeance requires a tiny little bit of forsight- "oh, hey, if I fired that off on a big team it would be epic!"
That's more than 99.9% of the playerbase will ever exhibit.
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| Also you are the first person I've ever seen state that vengeance is a 'not fun' power. |
fun as in it looks like something neat when you're leveling up and check out the power description at the trainer.
Vengeance is a fabulous power hardly anyone takes.
Giving them more chances to take it won't improve its market penetration by a meaningful amount.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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Agreed.
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Originally Posted by Nicetry
If by meaningless and pedantic you mean accurate and correct then yes I agree.
I don't think a single person has said your build will be "worse off". If they have I missed it. All I've seen some people say is that things might be tighter for some builds. Which there is no denying. It's easily demonstrated through simple math as I did and through simple examples as I did. It seems like you guys are making up a non-existent stance to argue against. However, saying the build is tighter isn't meant to imply such negative connotation I'm pretty sure it is you guys that are implying all the negativity into posts that the posters aren't intending. In fact if you were to read the posts I've made in this thread you'd see where I pointed out that this is a tremendous buff to anyone that wants to take advantage of it. I've gone so far as to say that people that choose so will be the exact opposite of 'worse off'. They'll be blowing through difficult team content like a recharge capped pre-nerf shield scrapper could go through even cons. But you guys are free to continue insinuating things. I wouldn't dream of a cox thread that was otherwise. |
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Yeah but they devoted a large portion of their assets for a whole issue for them to ignore a minority in hopes of attracting new "minorities" to become a majority but didn't listen to the minority on how this was a failed tactic and better to implement certain things to draw people in a different way rather than to kill what the minorities liked best about this playstyle as opposed to other games. I know it's hard to filter out the resounding groans to find valuable insight but they are doing it with their PvE player base, it's just sad they didn't take the time to do that with the PvP base (well they did but just went ahead with their "vision" anyways). An hours worth of thought and reasoning instead of stubborness on both sides would have saved thousands of subscriptions and maybe created a few more too. So yeah that was a smart business choice right there.
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Originally Posted by abnormal_joe
Failure to agree with a minorities vision is not "fault" or a "mistake" it is a simple business choice. You have to spend your assets in such a way as to please the majority. All of us take our turn being in the minority.
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Well, I deny it, but I seem to have a different definition of a "tight build". For me, opening up three power slots loosens my builds up, and allows me to fit in powers I couldn't quite squeeze in before. This variation of "tight" that you're using confuzzles me greatly.
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Originally Posted by Nicetry
All I've seen some people say is that things might be tighter for some builds. Which there is no denying.
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Certainly some exciting news about i19 & i20!
Apex... I would much prefer that they kept /some/ of the classic look, as others have suggested and even mocked up in the creator.
Inherent Fitness is cool. Nothing but gain, for certain. I'll probably take leadership on my MMs that did not have it, maybe. Mostly I'll go for concept, like taking some of the powers I skipped out on in the primary or secondary. It definitely helps on the early side, allowing you to get more powers into the mix without having to worry about the Road to Stamina.
Ideally the respec system should work like Dynamic mode in Mids: