Tweets of the PAX Panel
By
abnormal_joe,
Posted on: 2010-09-04 10:38 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Damn it Devs!
These twenty dollar bills are not consecutive!
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67 slots to add. I'm not counting the base slot of each power.
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Originally Posted by abnormal_joe
Actually you will have 71 slots. The base slots in those extra powers count to.
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You're assuming that people aren't already teaming with one or more someones who packs Vengeance already, and/or aren't running around with enough defense for more mundane defense buffs to softcap them, or that they aren't already softcapped because someone on the team isn't running a FF or Cold Domination character, one or more Soldiers of Arachnos, and/or their own IO defense bonuses.|
Originally Posted by Nicetry
Personally my builds are all excellent even with fitting in stamina, so for the majority of them this means veng by 20 as a straight swap. And this means any team I'm on (if I ever resub to this game) will be breezing through +2-4/x8 of pretty much any enemy faction from level 20 on with insane speed and reward rate.
You guys are right though, that's not really power creep, that is power leap  . Provided roughly 20% of people think like I do so that most pugs will have a veng caster or two from now on.P.S. even for the selfish player there is little reason not to go the leadership route as it will give you two lotg's as opposed to 3 with concealment. Unless you literally never team then taking leadership is a pretty simple decision for most toons as a straight swap for stamina's power picks imo. |
I can tell you that this particular point will probably increase the survival of teams I run with something like ... 5-10% of the time.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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You maybe should. For all the people who are complaining that their builds will somehow get tighter, adding powers that don't need slots is the obvious solution. Even if you're only adding things for their base slot as a proc/global.
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Originally Posted by Mirai
67 slots to add. I'm not counting the base slot of each power.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Originally Posted by _Psi_
People are unhappy with this? Really?
Hah. I guess teh interwebs never really is happy. I, for one, will enjoy my new powers such as Conserve Power, Aim, PowerBuild Up, and more. |
I am happy! I just can't wait to get some powers that I will not sure because I have space for them!
http://s305.photobucket.com/albums/n...stumes%202011/
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So are yall just making stuff up? We're not complaining about tighter builds. Just making an observation. Is that so hard to get? In fact, the two most active posters stating this have said we think this is a good thing(myself and Nicetry).|
Originally Posted by Dispari
You maybe should. For all the people who are complaining that their builds will somehow get tighter, adding powers that don't need slots is the obvious solution. Even if you're only adding things for their base slot as a proc/global.
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Also Dysmal, no reason to get butt hurt because I mocked your post. You are intentionally ignoring people's clarifications and it is rather disingenuous. I don't get why you're so sensitive about the term 'tighter build'. It's weird.
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You comment on this further in later posts, but I do think the problem some folks are having is that we consider saying that something gets "tighter" has an inherently negative connotation.|
Originally Posted by MunkiLord
I don't think yall understand what he is saying. In this context tighter build simply means less slots per power. Which is true.
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In common parlance, I find that people use that to mean something like:
- People now get less return on the same investment, meaning they need to invest more to stay in the same place
- The return on investment is the same, but they require more return, and they have no additional resources to invest.
I think it's fair to say most of us would love to be able to invest more slots in these new powers, but we can't do worse than break even if we don't. I think most of us will come out slightly ahead. If we want to define "tight" as "increased ratio of powers to slots" then I guess that's OK, but I just don't find that a useful definition based on how people around me communicate.
Also, I really do think some people have issued that as an honest to goodness complaint, and not just as a statement of ratio change.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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vengeance is closer to learning the market than, say, Fireball.|
Originally Posted by Nicetry
I didn't think you would be the type of person that would fail to see the difference between learning and utilizing the market and clicking a single power while playing.
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There are steps involved in utilizing Vengeance that are not present for most of the other powers in the game. Each one of those steps will shed some % of players who might otherwise have taken the power. It has two prerequisites, it needs a team to be useful, it takes a corpse to activate.
These are not inconsiderable hurdles in a game where mashing a couple of attack buttons is the totality of most player's tactical understanding. Your insistence on pretending otherwise speaks poorly for your argument.
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| I haven't insisted otherwise, this again is you making an argument against something that wasn't said, just like earlier where you guys were attacking imaginary people that said this change was negative. |
I've never mis-characterized your position in this thread.
it is instructive that you yourself dabble in a behavior you condemn in others.
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| I'm saying random distribution of people choosing new power pools is almost enough to satisfy my statement. Add to that people that seek to improve their gameplay by a large amount with minimal investment and voila. |
What looks less fun than Leadership to most players?
Presence, maybe?
Hardly anyone will be taking Vengeance.
If you want to move the goalposts until that satisfies your requirements (which began at 20%), be my guest.
The number of people adding Vengeance to their builds will not be statistically significant and will not change game balance in any meaningful way.
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| The thing is while we both believe the average player isn't very intelligent, I don't believe they are quite as stupid as you depict. |
Vengeance isn't something that's going to appeal to lazy, incurious players.
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| The notion of tackling +3's with the ease of +1's is tantalizing enough where I think even the most - as you describe them - 'stupid' players can be convinced. Luckily they don't have to be though to satisfy what I said. |
If there was a bug with Vengeance that caused you to get x2 XP while it was active, then you'd see a MA Meow Farm style rush to add it to builds.
The problem you run up against with a performance based argument is that you're dealing with a game where a well built character can solo a mission set for +4/x8.
Any not completely retarded PUG *already* steamrolls everything they run across. I'm not seeing how "wow this buff is great and will make everything easier!" is the big sales pitch you think it is.
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| ok. I'm not going to explain it again or go over why the simple math supports what I'm saying, or why simply rationality supports what I'm saying. |
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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You're right. Perhaps slot crunch(or anything else) would have been a better term to use. At this point I'm done arguing with people about it since it is been clarified several times what was meant, and they are choosing to ignore it(at least from the posters the last few hours). |
Originally Posted by UberGuy
You comment on this further in later posts, but I do think the problem some folks are having is that we consider saying that something gets "tighter" has an inherently negative connotation.
In common parlance, I find that people use that to mean something like:
I think it's fair to say most of us would love to be able to invest more slots in these new powers, but we can't do worse than break even if we don't. I think most of us will come out slightly ahead. If we want to define "tight" as "increased ratio of powers to slots" then I guess that's OK, but I just don't find that a useful definition based on how people around me communicate. Also, I really do think some people have issued that as an honest to goodness complaint, and not just as a statement of ratio change. |
Personally I'm fine with not getting anymore slots. I'm gonna enjoy figuring out how to maximize my new powers with the slots I have available.
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I'm not seeing it as making anything "tighter", I'm seeing it as vastly increasing flexibility in how we build our characters.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
You comment on this further in later posts, but I do think the problem some folks are having is that we consider saying that something gets "tighter" has an inherently negative connotation.
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Anything that gives us more options in this arena is an unalloyed good.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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I'm not sure if Veng is the best example, but the query is sound: what is the impact going to be when players have to choose something to replace their current Fitness choices? What is the common wisdom going to be?|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
You're assuming that people aren't already teaming with one or more someones who packs Vengeance already, and/or aren't running around with enough defense for more mundane defense buffs to softcap them, or that they aren't already softcapped because someone on the team isn't running a FF or Cold Domination character, one or more Soldiers of Arachnos, and/or their own IO defense bonuses.
I can tell you that this particular point will probably increase the survival of teams I run with something like ... 5-10% of the time. |
Veng obviously hasn't been that popular since players could no longer stack it, but perhaps the new thing becomes everyone choosing Leadership (Tactics, Assault, Defence) to provide stacked team buffs. Or maybe there is some APP / VPP power combo that offers the best solo and / or team utility. Now, there may actually be issues with players already reaching softcaps, but that doesn't necessarily mean they know they've reached such a cap - it'll become an issue of what powers are considered to be good 'fillers'.
This is going to be the interesting outcome - what is going to fill in these newly created gaps and how it impacts on how CoH/V plays. Although I think the aim was to speed up the pre-Stamina journey, the full impact is more likely to be seen in the lvl 40+ game when players have their final powers to choose from.
... and then there is I20, which could contain something as radical as "pick any powers you want!", plus Incarnate slots.
I cannot speak to the vast majority of the in game population. I can speak for the coalition which I help to lead (one of the largest in this game fwiw). Veng is incredibly popular pick already and is likely to be nigh universal once we have 3 more free picks to use.
Since this thread was originally regarding all the announcements and Q&A comments I would like to return to one of the points we seem to have forgotten.
"There will be 'casual paths and new features'"
Is it possible that we will finally be getting a non-combat way to level our characters?
Taking It On the Chin I-16 Tanker Guide
Repeat Offenders
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Yeah, I did notice, so sorry for raising it again. I was gone for those past few hours. |
Originally Posted by MunkiLord
At this point I'm done arguing with people about it since it is been clarified several times what was meant, and they are choosing to ignore it(at least from the posters the last few hours).
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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No worries, you made your post about five minutes after my last post on the subject.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Yeah, I did notice, so sorry for raising it again. I was gone for those past few hours.
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I liked what you said. Your post is what made me decide to let this go. Arguing over semantics is a waste of everyone's time.
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There's no question that any increase in picking general ally/team buffs will likely stack on teams in the general case, and so probably make more teams more powerful. Hell, even just more global recharge on a single character who otherwise has click buffs has some effect like that. Defense is a tricky one though, as it's a bit more prone to run into the softcap if too many people do it. Damage is a bit similar, but there's usually no danger of running into the damage buff cap without a kin on the team (and a decently large team).
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Originally Posted by UnSub
This is going to be the interesting outcome - what is going to fill in these newly created gaps and how it impacts on how CoH/V plays. Although I think the aim was to speed up the pre-Stamina journey, the full impact is more likely to be seen in the lvl 40+ game when players have their final powers to choose from.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
As far as the tighter build argument goes, the numbers that were being presented earlier are a little incorrect.
Currently we get 27 powers at level 50, with 67 assignable slots. But on top of those 67 assignable slots we have the other 27 non-assignable slots, giving us a total of 94 slots. After inherent Fitness, we'll have 98 slots and 31 powers.
Our builds will be looser in the sense that we'll have three extra powers to pick, and those picks will be at low levels, if we took Fitness before. We'll also have 4 extra slots to put enhancements in.
Our builds will be tighter in the sense of having fewer average slots per power, dropping from 3.481 per power to 3.161 per power. The number of powers we'll be able to slot optimally won't change.
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"/window_show LFG" says yes... but the devs' track record of complete feature implementation knocks it back down to maybe...
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Originally Posted by Orion_Star_EU
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goat mode. Try reading the thread.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
vengeance is closer to learning the market than, say, Fireball.
There are steps involved in utilizing Vengeance that are not present for most of the other powers in the game. Each one of those steps will shed some % of players who might otherwise have taken the power. It has two prerequisites, it needs a team to be useful, it takes a corpse to activate. These are not inconsiderable hurdles in a game where mashing a couple of attack buttons is the totality of most player's tactical understanding. Your insistence on pretending otherwise speaks poorly for your argument. Who is this "you guys"? I've never mis-characterized your position in this thread. it is instructive that you yourself dabble in a behavior you condemn in others. Except people don't choose powers randomly, they mostly choose stuff they think will be fun. What looks less fun than Leadership to most players? Presence, maybe? Hardly anyone will be taking Vengeance. If you want to move the goalposts until that satisfies your requirements (which began at 20%), be my guest. The number of people adding Vengeance to their builds will not be statistically significant and will not change game balance in any meaningful way. They aren't stupid, they're just incurious and lazy. Vengeance isn't something that's going to appeal to lazy, incurious players. You can't convince enough players in this game of ANYTHING to make a meaningful difference. If there was a bug with Vengeance that caused you to get x2 XP while it was active, then you'd see a MA Meow Farm style rush to add it to builds. The problem you run up against with a performance based argument is that you're dealing with a game where a well built character can solo a mission set for +4/x8. Any not completely retarded PUG *already* steamrolls everything they run across. I'm not seeing how "wow this buff is great and will make everything easier!" is the big sales pitch you think it is. That's a fine idea, since neither is true. |
There is some powers that not needed any extra slots like recall friend. Some of my toons have to take crappy "trash" powers. I'm not going to slot them. Probably I'm not going to use them at all. Still some of my toons thanks devs deeply. Like my scrapper
And actually we are getting 4 new powers if we count hurdle/swiftness.
edit. some editing
Prunejuice is warriors drink.
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I'm not assuming anything. What you're depicting just isn't nearly as common as people on the boards pretend it is. If fact it is a mighty large assumption in and of itself to claim that teams are softcapped with any kind of frequency.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
You're assuming that people aren't already teaming with one or more someones who packs Vengeance already, and/or aren't running around with enough defense for more mundane defense buffs to softcap them, or that they aren't already softcapped because someone on the team isn't running a FF or Cold Domination character, one or more Soldiers of Arachnos, and/or their own IO defense bonuses.
I can tell you that this particular point will probably increase the survival of teams I run with something like ... 5-10% of the time. |
I will say that I've never seen anyone with veng at lvl 20. I'm sure they are out there, but it is pretty rare. I don't see it popping up until the main TF range kicks in which is generally around 35+. And I hardly ever see it on freedom pugs.
I will state definitively that any team I've been on that does have a veng caster has been extraordinarily fast at completing the content with almost complete disregard for the intended difficulty.
It's also not like veng only buffs defense now is it? No it turns your team into nearly unstoppable demi gods. The great thing is though if your team is already softcapped and no one is dying then you don't need to use veng. Of course that team probably has no use for you using flurry or w/e else you might pick up in unslotted form with this change. At the very least you'll still benefit from the lotg you can put in it. Heck if someone does die on a softcapped team the other benefits of veng could very well prevent that from happening again. Perhaps more than any other power pool could.
Finally I've never seen a grantable def buff that also includes DDR. That Forcefield team that is comfortably sitting at the softcap is a mere quicksand away from getting trounced. Veng to the rescue!
.....
To the thread in general this is a silly tangent. Of course there is almost nothing else to talk about in this announcement because it is almost all "it's coming...hold on", but I'm satisfied with the explanation I've given regarding the possibilities of this change. Which quite frankly in case anyone is still having issues understanding, are almost entirely positive provided you enjoy killing things faster.
I'm am however, still seeing a lot of people countering an argument that was never made and proclaiming victory. I haven't seen anyone claim this is a negative change and yet people keep jumping up and down decrying this imaginary position.
The last thing I want to say with regard to tightness is that if you inherently think it is automatically a negative thing then you my friend need to get out of the computer room and get out meeting people!
have fun guys.
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A few people have earlier in the thread, but overall everybody is for it. Some are a bit skeptical, but seem pleased.
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Originally Posted by Nicetry
I'm am however, still seeing a lot of people countering an argument that was never made and proclaiming victory. I haven't seen anyone claim this is a negative change and yet people keep jumping up and down decrying this imaginary position. |
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I've read it and understood it, which is one more hashmark on the achievement board than you've managed.|
Originally Posted by Nicetry
goat mode. Try reading the thread.
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I eagerly await the inevitable nerf to Vengeance that your tidal wave of new adopters will bring.
=)
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Am I the only one that looks on I20 with a bit of apprehension? With IOs, toons are as overpowered (peraps more so) as they were before the Global Defense Nerf and Enhancement Diversification. Adding inherent stamina and the incarnate system may make it seem even more unbalanced.
I won't be surprised to see some 'balancing' in issue 20. Not doomsaying here, just a bit of trepidation; GDN and ED were painful.
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No apprehension here... the incarnate system will not affect levels below 50 at all. And it is designed around us doing things AT 50 and continuing to give us content to enjoy AT 50. Whats to balance? Nothing will really be changing as far as how powerful IO's make us at 50 or below. And the game is balanced around SO's not IO's. IO's are SUPPOSED to let us break the limits imposed by ED to some extent.|
Originally Posted by ClancyClown
Am I the only one that looks on I20 with a bit of apprehension? With IOs, toons are as overpowered (peraps more so) as they were before the Global Defense Nerf and Enhancement Diversification. Adding inherent stamina and the incarnate system may make it seem even more unbalanced.
I won't be surprised to see some 'balancing' in issue 20. Not doomsaying here, just a bit of trepidation; GDN and ED were painful. |
I very much doubt we'll experience any rebalancing due to the incarnate system since that system only affects the lvl 50's and is precisely content lvl 50's want/need to continue enjoying/advancing their characters. The content for "beyond 50" is designed around us being as powerful as the incarnate system makes us.
Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30
People are unhappy with this? Really?
Hah. I guess teh interwebs never really is happy.
I, for one, will enjoy my new powers such as Conserve Power, Aim, PowerBuild Up, and more.
"The Hollows was a cover up; it was really caused by Blue Steel experimenting with Foot Stomp." - Steelclaw
<-- boy