Tweets of the PAX Panel
By
abnormal_joe,
Posted on: 2010-09-04 10:38 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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I am truly beside myself with happiness!
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Originally Posted by Castle
Yes, they are enhanceable and you can add up to 5 additional slots to them, just like the current versions. The powers are all available either at level 1 or 2 (I forget at the moment) -- no waiting 'til 20 for Stamina.
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@ Tymers_Realm and SolarSentai
As I understand it...
If after I19 hits you still have Fitness in a build, you will not lose it, and you will not have the Inherent Fitness.
If you make a new character or respec a build after I19 hits, you will be given Inherent Fitness at the start of the creation/respec process, and will not be able to pick Fitness from the power pools.
You will not be required to do anything before I19 arrives.
If you're worried, there's always open beta. We should get a definite answer to how it works then, but I have a hunch I'm right.
"The Hamidon is a what what of what?" - Brian the mission guy.
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yeah go back to this. Please
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Originally Posted by Mouse_Man
This I don't understand... It's really not that hard to make Apex look recognizable with existing costume parts...
 I mean, why mess with an established look? The full Vanguard suit looks bad on him... |
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And if you wanted the option to slot it, you could take the power, which would still be in a pool. What would be a much simpler solution is a global movement/regeneration/recovery rate buff, along with a nerf to fitness.|
Originally Posted by reiella
Exactly, by making it inherent, you no longer have the option to slot enhancements in it.
[ edit for clarity ] By making the modifications to the values themselves, you remove the options of slotting it, and placing more slots in the power. |
Don't get me wrong, I'm not against more inherent movement/regen/recovery. My question is why was this approach chosen.
EDIT:
Not just a change to fitness, but all other regeneration/recovery/movement powers to keep their power level the same.
So, it requires fewer spreadsheet changes to just make fitness inherent. This makes sense. However, it's causing power creep, and power creep leads to nerfs.
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Have you considered pairing this change with a random feature where characters die without warning or explanation every ten minutes? I think that would split the forum community pretty evenly on whether the two changes, together, were an improvement or not. |
Originally Posted by Castle
Yes, they are enhanceable and you can add up to 5 additional slots to them, just like the current versions. The powers are all available either at level 1 or 2 (I forget at the moment) -- no waiting 'til 20 for Stamina.
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Because buffing base regen/recovery would have multiplicative effects on all other regen/recovery boosting powers in the game.|
Originally Posted by azile
And if you wanted the option to slot it, you could take the power, which would still be in a pool. What would be a much simpler solution is a global movement/regeneration/recovery rate buff, along with a nerf to fitness.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not against more inherent movement/regen/recovery. My question is why was this approach chosen. |
You can still slot the new inherent Fitness powers, as Castle said, the same way you slotted the old ones.
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This is what I'm wondering myself. I'll gladly sign an NDA if it means I get to test. Alpha and beta testing are among the few things that I still enjoy in most MMOs. |
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
... also, signed NDA...just what big change is coming that they want the extra insurance?
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I have my blood pen waiting whenever you're ready Devs.
This is great news, and yet another step in "the devs listen to us (and probably peruse the data they have access to to back up our requests as viable) and make changes to the game that we like and want, even if it takes a while and they have to watch us blather on about it for 12-18 months or more while remaining silent." *whew*
I would have a very hard time keeping my mouth shut for that long, let alone doing it for multiple things coming down the pipe. </em raiseglass>
M. Bison: For you, the day Bison graced your village was the most important day of your life. But for me...it was Tuesday.
-- Street Fighter (1994)
McClane: Hey, thanks for saving my daughter's life.
Farrell: What was I going to do?
McClane: That's what makes you "that guy."
-- Live Free or Die Hard (2007)
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I understand the confusion, please read the edit for clarification that I added. I believe you quoted it as well. I actually agree with your point |
Originally Posted by Terminal Velocity
Incorrect. Brawl. Sprint. Rest. Kheldian Travels and the form powers. The whole fitness set, now.
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.By making modifications to the values themselves [Recovery, Regeneration, and Movement Speed, as mentioned earlier in the reply/thread I was responding to] instead of moving the powers in question to an inherent power pool, you would no longer be able to slot them, since there is no power. It's simply a change to the intrinsic values.
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Originally Posted by azile
And if you wanted the option to slot it, you could take the power, which would still be in a pool. What would be a much simpler solution is a global movement/regeneration/recovery rate buff, along with a nerf to fitness.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not against more inherent movement/regen/recovery. My question is why was this approach chosen. EDIT: So, fewer spreadsheet changes. Makes sense. It's still causing power creep, and power creep leads to nerfs. |
This method lets them maintain the same endurance economy at the top end [and the 'general' end], at the expense of increasing it at the low end.
Let's Dance!
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Have the devs released any information on how people slot? I know virtually all my characters have 1 or 2 in Swift, 3 in Health and at least 3 in Stamina with Common IO's being used. Only my favorite characters have Performance Shifter, with my main having one of those special Health procs...|
Originally Posted by Lord_Thanatos
The thing you forget is that most builds that have fitness have it with spending very few slots, most of the time only 2 extra slots for stam, and maybe and extra one for health for the two +recovery procs. So even with 3 new powers, on current builds, most people don't have slots to put into the new powers.
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Originally Posted by Weatherwoman
My only problem with inherent fitness is that we won't get any extra slots for the powers that we have to take in their place, so they will end up being unused dummy powers. Incarnate levels has a *chance* to fix this. I just think that dispersing the enhancement slots we have is already hard enough without adding even more powers to the mix.
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Years ago (around i1 or i2) I had this same discussion with Statesman, when I felt that stamina should have become an inherent. It feels weird to be using his argument against it. But again, this approach causes power creep (even if it's simpler to implement).
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Originally Posted by reiella
Ah, I was responding to a different logic then. I was assuming you meant still removing the power in question, simply making it's effects baseline. More so for that, to maintain the same economy. More so the second item I listed initially. They don't want to just buff Recovery 0.83%/s to everyone. Because frankly, [most] everyone would feel the need to take Recovery. Consider that before I6, the population still typically 6 slotted Stamina.
This method lets them maintain the same endurance economy at the top end [and the 'general' end], at the expense of increasing it at the low end. |
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I personally have come to dislike (real) beta testing and loath alpha testing. As such, I would like to thank you for participating in those activities because I won't go near'em anymore for the exact reasons they're needed (bug squashing, stability issues, etc).
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Originally Posted by Obsidian_Farmer
This is what I'm wondering myself. I'll gladly sign an NDA if it means I get to test. Alpha and beta testing are among the few things that I still enjoy in most MMOs.
I have my blood pen waiting whenever you're ready Devs. |
The incarnate slots/powers will help with those single slot powers also.
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Okay, slottable Fitness inherent at level 1 or 2, great. Now what's this about a *SIGNED* NDA? As in actually literally signed? Implies something BIG that they want testers to really understand to keep quiet about it. Let the rampant baseless speculation begin! ...again!
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Originally Posted by orion_star_eu
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"And yes, it worries me that people know how many pipelines their graphics cards have and the bus speed of a PCIe-16x, yet don't know how to convert between bordering time zones."
[COLOR="Yellow"]Avatar by Dragonberry, coloring by Bubbawheat[/COLOR]
Has it been confirmed that the actual values will be the same? I worry that, even with the powers being slottable, the maximum level of regen and recovery achievable will go down. I can see the devs shooting for numbers big enough to give lowbies and current no-fitness, non-minmaxed builds a boost, but low enough to bring the very high end down. They don't seem to be too fond of massive outliers.
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Were any of them slated to be exemplarable? I know the Alpha wasn't, but there's still 10 more planned...
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Originally Posted by Zyphoid
The incarnate slots/powers will help with those single slot powers also.
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Do you think we can sign it electronically, or will we actually have to fax in our signature?
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Nothing yet.|
Originally Posted by Selina_H
Has it been confirmed that the actual values will be the same?
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I think the fact we'll get three more powers but no more slots *might* be enough to keep things the same. We might be kids in a candy shop when it comes to possibilities, but we've only got so much to spend, you know?
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I am pretty sure not, so the help will only come after you are 50.
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Originally Posted by Psyte
Were any of them slated to be exemplarable? I know the Alpha wasn't, but there's still 10 more planned...
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Types of Swords
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Federal Express booster pack |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Do you think we can sign it electronically, or will we actually have to fax in our signature?
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I want to say it was about the same time that Hasten got nerfed, since I remember the lines about 'required' powers then too |
Originally Posted by azile
Years ago (around i1 or i2) I had this same discussion with Statesman, when I felt that stamina should have become an inherent. It feels weird to be using his argument against it.
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. Since that was well expected to also bring a Stamina nerf with it, since Hasten was nerfed for the same reason in play. Although, interestingly enough, the solution with Hasten wasn't to raise everyone's inherent cast time . It was to make perma Hasten impossible [or near Impossible] at that time.I also remember it coming up during the beta for CoV when Positron broke the news about ED.
I think those discussions did provide an interesting insight as to why an additive solution wouldn't really be viable, since that type of statistic is one that the player base will never be satisfied with until it's completely trivialized. Again, see the usage pre-ED.
Let's Dance!
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Doing this at all creates power creep unless it comes pre-loaded with a nerf. Making this part of the base rates would be a nerf to everyone who has set bonuses, uniques or procs in Health and Stamina, a wash to anyone who has nothing but SOs or commons in them, and a buff to everyone with +regen or +recovery powers.|
Originally Posted by azile
So, it requires fewer spreadsheet changes to just make fitness inherent. This makes sense. However, it's causing power creep, and power creep leads to nerfs.
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The question is which way creates the least power creep, or the most acceptable form of creep, hopefully while nerfing the fewest people. I think the option that does that best is probably the one they have chosen.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Can you imagine what the response to ED would have been like if Fitness was made inherit in the same patch?
Do they literally mean a signature? Sounds crazay. I just assumed the signed NDA comment was a circumlocution for closed beta as opposed to open beta.
Sermon
@sermon
One of Six, Cannibal 6
1 - Keep the relative power of movement and regen/recovery powers balanced. All movement, Recovery and Regeneration powers (Non-instant) are calculated as a multiplier to the base rate. For example, Health increases HP Regeneration by 40%. If the base HP Regeneration were to be increased by 40%, it would increase the effectiveness of all powers that increase HP Regeneration by 40% as well, which would involve a lot more work (Imagine the Regeneration Powerset where all of the +Regen power were 40% more effective - then imagine the nerf hammer coming down on it)
2 - Allowing for Enhancements. By making them Enhanceable Inherent Powers, the option is still available to add Enhancements to the powers. For those whom 1 slot is enough, they can just use that one slot. If you think you need more, you can still add more.