Could Batman be jailed?
By
BlackArachnia,
Posted on: 2010-08-18 14:45 in Comic and Hero-Villain Culture
Quote:
And mindwipe the planet into forgetting they ever knew who Batman was. I think the JL still owes him a mindwipe in any way.
|
Originally Posted by CaptainFoamerang
Yeah, Zatanna and J'onn alone could track him in about 10 minutes tops.
|
"If you're going through hell, keep going."
Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill
When did Batman stop being authorized by the Gotham City Police Department? If they still have the Batsignal you have to figure that he's going to have some legal standing ...
My COX Fanfiction:
Blue's Assembled Story Links
Quote:
Well there was a time when Gordon wasn't commissioner anymore and the GCPD was more anti-Batman, but think Gordon's back.
|
Originally Posted by BlueBattler
When did Batman stop being authorized by the Gotham City Police Department? If they still have the Batsignal you have to figure that he's going to have some legal standing ...
|
- CaptainFoamerang
Silverspar on Kelly Hu: A face that could melt paint off the wall *shivers*
Someone play my AE arc! "The Heart of Statesman" ID: 343405
Quote:
This.
|
Originally Posted by Blood Spectre
He's rich and white.
|
Wash: "I've been under fire before. Well ... I've been in a fire. Actually, I was fired. I can handle myself."
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Blood Spectre
No.
He's rich and white. /winthread. |
Quote:
Vigilantism does not require deadly force. Spiderman hanging a criminal in front of the police department wouldn't be vigilantism (remove the spider web and the sticky note, and it's basically the same thing as a neighborhood watch), but Batman stalking down a criminal and beating them up would.
|
Originally Posted by Durakken
The whole taking down criminals thing is not Vigilantism. To be vigilantism you have to use deadly force and such.
|
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
Quote:
Modern Lore...|
Originally Posted by CaptainFoamerang
Well there was a time when Gordon wasn't commissioner anymore and the GCPD was more anti-Batman, but think Gordon's back.
|
During year 1 Batman is seen as a criminal.
During year 2 Batman is seen as a good thing and by the end of year 2 Gordon makes Commissioner largely due to his connection with Batman and Batman giving most of cred to Gordon for most captures...
During KnightSaga, Armand Krol supports Azrael Batman as Gordon doesn't support Batman. This causes Essen, his wife, to be put in charge. However, when Krol loses the re-election to Grange Essen is made the mayoral liaison and Gordon is remade into Commissioner...
Sometime after this point, around War Games, apparently Grange, Essen, Gordon, Bullock, and Montoya are ousted and Batman is seen as a criminal and hunted.
And then Gordon is remade Commissioner and Batman is fine again... but disappears for a while during Bruce Wayne's Murderer arc...
As far as Organizations that know Batmans' identity...
Amanda Waller... which is the top of the line pretty much/
"The Agency"
Gordon "knows"
I don't think any others know...
Tim figured it out only because of Dick Grayson's usage of the triple or quadruple flip thing both at the circus and as Robin, something only he could do.
Bane figured it out just by looking at him ^.^
Vicki Vale was going to be told but Bruce was interrupted and now she suspects.
Ra's Al Ghul know, dunno how.
One would have to think that the Vatican and the Order of St. Dumas both know, but as far as I have seen it's never been said.
There are a number of people who think they know, but are not 100%.
Quote:
Gotham Central, issue 34: Batman is shot by a Gotham City Police Officer after being caught "interrogating" the Penguin. The Penguin is bloodied and shouting for help. Batman proceeds to strike the officer, breaking her nose, and then steals her sidearm.|
Originally Posted by Durakken
Just recently come across the second cop I can remember him hitting... and it could be considered justifiable as the cop could arguably be considered out of his gourd. I think however that the statute of limitation would have been passed by now considering that that happened in year 2, the cop was fired, and it's now year 19 or 20.
|
So that also adds second degree robbery.
GC#34 was released back in late 2005/early 2006 which puts it well into 5 year statute of limitations on felonies in NY (which is technically 10 years for unknown assailants).
Head of TRICK, the all Trick Arrow and Traps SG
Part of the Repeat Offenders
Still waiting for his Official BackAlleyBrawler No-Prize
Quote:
* Assault, aggravated assault The use of force against another is only justified in certain cases of self defense or defense of another who would have had the right to defend himself. (If someone started a fight, and you thought THEY were being the attacked, so you jumped in to defend them, THAT person didn't have the right to defense, so you could find yourself charged)|
Originally Posted by Durakken
Asuming Batman is caught, is there anything that the police could charge him with that would get him sent to jail, and the charge stick?
After thinking for a while I don't think there is. Vigilantism... He's not a Vigilante in the proper definition of the word. Breaking and Entering... There's no evidence beyond testimony. Wreckless endangerment of a minor... Nope. Batman isn't wreckless and that is easily provable. Concealment of deadly weapons... He doesn't carry anything more dangerous than you or I can carry. The deadliest thing he carries is a Batarang which doubles as a knife. That's not considered a concealed deadly weapon. impeding justice or whatever it's called... This about the only one I can see holding as they could claim that he impedes justice by removing evidence from crime scenes, but every time he is seen doing this it is almost always after CSI is done and/or minor stuff that they wouldn't pick up on or use. It seems to me that if he went to trial he could only be heavily fined (mainly for the car) and nothing else. |
Even then, "self defense" is an active justification. You have to PROVE it in court.... so if the scene is so confusing that it can't be said who attacked who, you're not able to prove the self defense. Many of batman's incidents apply.
Attempted Murder Little bit of self defense info here for people. In may/most states, the use of lethal force in self defense is EXTREMELY limited. You have to yourself be threatened by murder, kidnapping, etc to make it justified.
This is made more challenging by the fact that "lethal force" can be broadly defined. In several states around the mid-atlantic region (where I'm at) using a MAGLIGHT (not mini-- the bigger one) to hit a person above the shoulders- that's lethal force. (Generally, using any "levering" item against a person above the shoulders is considered "lethal force). That ruling came about when a security guard, jumped by an unarmed opponent, struck the guy in the head. He unnecessarily "escalated" the fight to lethal force, so he lost his "right" to self defense and was charged and convicted for manslaughter.
For Batman, any such use of a lethal weapon against a person that didn't warrant lethal force WOULD be considered premeditated, so higher charges like attempted murder would stick.
And yes, in many/most jurisdictions, solid-core (non-nerf) boomerangs are considered lethal weapons.... a batarang that has enough force to embed itself into a wall certainly would.
Reckless endangerment of a minor Recklessness is defined by how the actions appear to the general public, not a character's demeanor. Willingly allowing a minor to become involved in acts of questionable legality AND high likelihood of injury certainly qualifies. Negligence would be even easier to prove.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Durakken
Prove he's done it ^.^
That's the thing, he could be held for breaking and entering, but there is no proof that he has done it. Likewise there is no proof that he has "tortured" people. There is only proof that he has detained people, which is perfectly legal to do. |
The only thing keeping Batman out of jail is the fact that you can't convene a jury that believes Gotham would be safer with him behind bars. It wouldn't matter how airtight the case was, the jury wouldn't convict because they know in their hearts that they are safer with him out on the streets doing everything the cops can't do.
For a while there, one could assume the higher ups of Checkmate were aware of who Batman was, but then that was mostly because of who was in charge. Also, in considering individuals who know who the Bat is, Bane and David Cain know. Riddler knew for a while, but got mindwiped or somesuch non sense. Hush is another one. The only one im unsure of is Max Lord. Im pretty sure he knows, but ive no confirmation.
As to whether or not the idea that Bruce could face jail time for being Batman? First, they'd probably forgo the jury trial or try the case outside of Gotham. Second, if he was put on trial would they be able to convict him? Yes. because whoever the hell caught him arranged for Batman/Bruce to be there and wouldn't have helped a trial get that far along without being able to provide proof of his crimes.
In this day & age, just having the sidekick could land him in jail, for many reasons.
"They've got us surrounded again, the poor bastards." - General Creighton W. Abrams
Quote:
Such people wouldn't be eligible for an impartial jury, would they? They'd be altering the verdict to save their own skin. |
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
The only thing keeping Batman out of jail is the fact that you can't convene a jury that believes Gotham would be safer with him behind bars. It wouldn't matter how airtight the case was, the jury wouldn't convict because they know in their hearts that they are safer with him out on the streets doing everything the cops can't do.
|
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
Quote:
Probably.|
Originally Posted by Comeuppance
In this day & age, just having the sidekick could land him in jail, for many reasons.
|
@Demobot
Also on Steam
Ok..lets..for a moment consider two "facts", as it relates to DC and its mythos.
1) Batman is considered the "greatest" detective. If you think about that, he would know enough to keep the evidence of any crime to a minimum.
It would be like if Dr. Brennan, on the show Bones, where to commit a murder. She knows so much about how to figure out who commited murder, that she would be able to do so and leave no evidence.
2) Batman is considered the 2nd best escape artist in the entire DC universe. Mr Miracle, being the only one better, and I think he is a god.
Good luck holding Bats in any cell or prison. Besides, he is one of the Big Three. He may find himself in legal trouble, but, just like his "death"...its all retcon-able.
Also, it is all make believe!
210 50s and still counting!
Quote:
Unless the state issues subpoenas for their attendance, which they would.|
Originally Posted by Durakken
Also Tim, Dick, Barbara, Damian, Wendy, Stephanie, Helena, Selina, and Alfred are likely not going to appear in court unless to defend Bruce and the "endangering of a minor" argument loses it's weight when you have Tim and Steph being solo and not going out because of Bruce, but rather being directed by him in how to be safe. It could be argued the same way that you take a kid to a gun range to teach them how to handle a gun is not endangering them, but rather showing them how to be safe in a dangerous activity.
|
Batman uses and stores a variety of hazardous materials: gasses, radioactive materials, chemicals, that you need a license to use in most places. Certainly in big cities. The lack of having one and Batman's open and notorious use of them would likely constitute at least misdemeanors.
That same use could probably lead Bats to be charged with the crime of reckless conduct which in most jurisdictions amounts to either harming someone via your reckless behavior or endangering the safety of another via reckless behavior. We have cops for a reason. They work for the people and are accountable to the people. Vigilantes like Batman are accountable to only their own conscience. In a civil society, that's repugnant to a great many.
Certainly Batman has done great things for the people of Gotham, but he hides behind his mask and does not submit himself to the scrutiny of the people. He is by this acting as a peace officer when we have one already.
That's just a couple of things I can think of. If I really started scouring the criminal codes, I could probably make some inchoate offenses like attempted murder stick.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
He could certainly be convicted of many crimes. Good luck catching him and keeping him in jail.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
Quote:
Problems with cartoon: A) criminal cases are prosecuted by a State Attorney or District Attorney, not a private citizen. B) the victim of the crime would be a witness answering questions, not making arguments. C) if it was a civil case rather than a criminal case, the verdict is "for the Plaintiff" or "for the Defendant," not "Guilty" or "Innocent." D) A criminal case cannot suddenly turn into charges against a witness . . . that has to be a separate case. Similarly, a civil case has to have the claims set up in the beginning of the case -- you can have counterclaims, but they have to be alleged near the beginning of the case long before trial.|
Originally Posted by Marcian Tobay
|
There are more . . .
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
Quote:
I am pretty sure that cartoon is not to teach law.
|
Originally Posted by Local_Man
Problems with cartoon: A) criminal cases are prosecuted by a State Attorney or District Attorney, not a private citizen. B) the victim of the crime would be a witness answering questions, not making arguments. C) if it was a civil case rather than a criminal case, the verdict is "for the Plaintiff" or "for the Defendant," not "Guilty" or "Innocent." D) A criminal case cannot suddenly turn into charges against a witness . . . that has to be a separate case. Similarly, a civil case has to have the claims set up in the beginning of the case -- you can have counterclaims, but they have to be alleged near the beginning of the case long before trial.
There are more . . . |
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
Quote:
Yeah, I know . . . but it is just like seeing something on a TV show or a movie that you know is flat out wrong.|
Originally Posted by SwellGuy
I am pretty sure that cartoon is not to teach law.
|
As for Batman being guilty of criminal charges? I haven't read the comics for many, many years, but . . .
Absolutely he is guilty of multiple counts of Assault and Battery -- a "citizen's arrest" does not allow for the kind of stuff he does.
Breaking and Entering and Burglery, many counts. It does not matter that there may be criminal activity in a warehouse . . . that does not legally justify him breaking in. He occasionally takes stuff needed for his investigation.
Traffic and insurance issues for the Batmobile, but those would be misdemeanors.
Destruction of property -- doesn't matter if he later goes back to pay for it annonymously.
Lots of others.
Would he be convicted? It might be hard to find a jury in Gotham to convict him, but I'm sure that a case of that magnitude would be moved to another jurisdiction. Ever sat on a Jury? I have, and the people take their job seriously (we actually let a drug dealer off because the prosecutor failed to prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt, even though we knew he was probably guilty). They try hard to follow the law. If the evidence showed crimes had been committed, then there is a good chance he would be found guilty.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by CaptainFoamerang
Depends.
I'm sure Bruce has plans for the event he's caught. I mean, if evidence surfaces of Luthor working with Darkseid, letting Imperiex essentially nuke American soil, and framing perhaps the greatest hero in the universe and he can get off, I think Bruce will be fine. |
As I recall both Marvel and DCU have laws protecting the identities of a masked person until after the crime has been convicted. I am not sure that makes alot of sense, but it protects the heroes as well as the villains. Usually the villains admit what they do in one way or the other, but most get away, Dr. Doom, or are considered mentally incompetent, Joker.
Quote:
Just wanted to point out this statement. Self defense does. Many of the criminals fighting him are using guns or equally restricted weapons. The fact that Batman does not resort to that, (Anymore), aids in his defense.
|
Originally Posted by Local_Man
Yeah, I know . . . but it is just like seeing something on a TV show or a movie that you know is flat out wrong.
As for Batman being guilty of criminal charges? I haven't read the comics for many, many years, but . . . Absolutely he is guilty of multiple counts of Assault and Battery -- a "citizen's arrest" does not allow for the kind of stuff he does. . |
Quote:
Correct, but those types of cartoons still rub me the wrong way. They give people false impressions of how courtrooms work, how justice works in this country. It's why people still (wrongly) trot out that woman who won the suit over McDonald's coffee as a frivolous lawsuit.|
Originally Posted by SwellGuy
I am pretty sure that cartoon is not to teach law.
|
Surely celebrities and the rich have an easier time of it. But for the most part out courts are deliberative and seek to resolve conflicts in a just manner.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Whatever organization in question would have to give the JLA a reason NOT to go searching if they wanted it to work.
Like have Batman be publicly "killed" and have the JLA recover a perfect replica dead body, perfect down to cosmic signature, psychic residue, etc.
Or, like Max Lord did, make the world forget he existed.
-np
I see myself as witty, urbane, highly talented, hugely successful with a keen sense of style. Plus of course my own special brand of modesty.
Virtue: Automatic Lenin | The Pink Guy | Superpowered | Guardia | Guardia Prime | Ultrapowered