What Changes are needed to make Stalkers an acceptable addition to a Team?
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-07-03 19:14 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
to the op:
for the game to go from being focused on AOE damage to single target damage.
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How are those 3 of 8 power sets gimped for stalkers?
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Originally Posted by rsclark
I've said several times I'm not talking about Elect and Spines. Maybe you should read better before responding. But that doesn't change the fact that we're still talking about (at a minimum) 3 out of 8 powersets that are gimped for stalkers. That is not an insignificant percentage. That is not something you can just brush away when talking about the AT as a whole.
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Little to no aoe at all.
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Originally Posted by Gemini_2099
How are those 3 of 8 power sets gimped for stalkers?
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This pretty much. There isn't anything a stalker brings to a team like the other ATs bring something. That being said I would never NOT invite a stalker to a team just because it was a stalker. Most of my high level villains are stalkers at that.|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
to the op:
for the game to go from being focused on AOE damage to single target damage. |
Point is, threat removal? Dominator. ST damage? ....Almost any villain AT. Stealth? Anyone with the concealment power pool.
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So?|
Originally Posted by Test_Rat
Little to no aoe at all.
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Energy has out of stealth attacks that are assassin level like attacks and dark melee is self explanatory.
That leaves MA, which isn't hot regardless of archtype. :P Edit: In fairness MA for scrappers is more AoE oriented, but still is a set that could be jazzed up.
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Lower amounts of AOE is only a problem if you put blinders on. There are plenty of places where you want good single target damage, and someone putting that damage where it needs to be. Stalkers are fine since they were adjusted... it's just the folks with blinders that seem to think they are not.
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Originally Posted by Gemini_2099
So?
Energy has out of stealth attacks that are assassin level like attacks and dark melee is self explanatory. That leaves MA, which isn't hot regardless of archtype. :P Edit: In fairness MA for scrappers is more AoE oriented, but still is a set that could be jazzed up. |
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Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
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It has less to do with blinders and more to do with the AoE centric nature of this game.|
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
Lower amounts of AOE is only a problem if you put blinders on. There are plenty of places where you want good single target damage, and someone putting that damage where it needs to be. Stalkers are fine since they were adjusted... it's just the folks with blinders that seem to think they are not.
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I've personally never experience a stalker's contribution to ST damage having tipped the balance so decidedly as to make me want a Stalker over another AT.
I have however experienced, many many times, how buffs or debuffs, or massive AoE damage have made a grand impact on a teams overall performance.
It's not just the lack of AoE (barring spines and Elm of course) that hurts them, its basically the lack of anything else.
Blinders is for the players who confuse what they feel is more fun as being the same thing as more effective.
It's beyond CoH and is basically an MMO wide (and a pretty natural Human motivation) to gravitate towards that which is most effective.
In this entire thread, people who are saying that Stalkers are fine have yet to do anything to prove it. Which is important if you actually want to change other people's perceptions.
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Of course the problem is that the mythical godly single target damage of the stalker is just that, a myth. While they are the kings of burst damage, sustained DPS chain crowns are the realm of scrappers and brutes. The stalkers get to sit outside and watch the party. |
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
Lower amounts of AOE is only a problem if you put blinders on. There are plenty of places where you want good single target damage, and someone putting that damage where it needs to be. Stalkers are fine since they were adjusted... it's just the folks with blinders that seem to think they are not.
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While I enjoy playing stalkers, they really do have little enough to offer teams. I don't mean to say they are a drain, but let's be honest, the slot is likely to be better filled by about anything else (though admittedly the difference may be quite small).
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But plenty of AoE scrappers can put out 90-95% of that same single target damage, while at the same time contributing the more commonly needed AoE damage.|
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
Lower amounts of AOE is only a problem if you put blinders on. There are plenty of places where you want good single target damage, and someone putting that damage where it needs to be. Stalkers are fine since they were adjusted... it's just the folks with blinders that seem to think they are not.
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You never specifically need single target damage, because single target is already a subset of AoE. You can't do AoE damage without also contributing single target damage.
You have to look at what situations each are important. Leveling? AoE is better. Raids? AoE better. Farming Purples? AoE better. Farming tickets? AoE better.
Single target is good on 2-3 individual battles of very specific TFs and maybe killing Protean. Stalkers are good on speed runs - assuming they can summon allies (and even then they would be better if they could also contribute AoE damage.)
So, at the end of the day
95% of the game - AoE better
5% of the game - single target better - but only by about 10-15%
We aren't talking about anything even vaguely resembling equality here.
*sighs* Well, all of this has already been covered in this thread. But we'll go back and forth some more, I guess.
If you really want to get down to numbers, all melee ATs are screwed. Ranged ATs have larger cones and more AOEs (along with potential buffs and debuffs to handle aggro), so who needs melee? Drop 'em.
The game doesn't work that way, though. Any combination of teams can work through the game however they please, which is great. People need to stop pretending that some gradation of performance above that content completion is needed to be "working." If you want to min/max your toon and go solo 4 AVs at once, that's great. The game allows you to do that. But you don't need to pretend that everyone else needs to be at that level of performance.
It isn't really different with this "AOE is teh uberz" line of reasoning. If ST-oriented and soloing, adjust your difficulty so your character is facing fewer targets, but make them more difficult. If your AOE-oriented the reverse makes sense.
If you're on a team, all damage is gravy. If you're clearing content at a good rate, how much above or below an arbitrary "damage to all mobs bar" you are does not matter. And that's what this all is, people imposing an arbitrary bar and saying this is how it must be.
On my toons with a lot of AOEs, I will love how I can cut through swaths of minions and lieutentants with ease, and be a little more annoyed that I don't do as much against bosses (and especially monsters, EBs, and AVs). The inverse for my ST-focused ATs.
Farming is kind of a different point. I have had more Purples drop for my ST-focused toons, ironically enough, even if the odds are supposedly better for vice versa (but only if you're soloing). And if you think the devs are going to remove some of the flavor in this game so everything does lots of AOE just for farming purposes... good luck with that one.
Stalkers are a fun AT, different from others, and can contribute to teams and solo play. They don't need any more than that: nor does any AT.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
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Funny that, DPS chains are often *SINGLE TARGET*!|
Originally Posted by docbuzzard
While they are the kings of burst damage, sustained DPS chain crowns are the realm of scrappers and brutes.
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That I've seen people post numbers that pretty much equate to 'Stalkers and Scrappers are about even' and that those numbers don't take into account the free crits (probably can't as it's not something easily quantifiable) must also be a myth.
Stalkers have DPS ontop of burst damage, you just fail to acknowledge it because...well, if you don't play Stalkers, you're not going to bother, right?
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| The stalkers get to sit outside and watch the party. |
Let the Brute get the messy and I'll dissect intelligently. Not running or hiding or waiting, just pick and choose, execute and move on. And guess what? I actually get *rewarded* for doing that! I get free crits, I get damn near absolute mitigation and the team runs smoother.
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DPS chain studies are by definition, single target. You might want to do a little research, or maybe comprehend what I wrote. Either way, you'd come off as more coherent. |
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Funny that, DPS chains are often *SINGLE TARGET*!
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| That I've seen people post numbers that pretty much equate to 'Stalkers and Scrappers are about even' and that those numbers don't take into account the free crits (probably can't as it's not something easily quantifiable) must also be a myth. |
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| Stalkers have DPS ontop of burst damage, you just fail to acknowledge it because...well, if you don't play Stalkers, you're not going to bother, right? |
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| The funny thing is, on some Stalkers I actually *do* that. Granted, some of my more ballistic Stalkers, I'm right in there dropping crits and taking alphas, but on certain stalkers, it pays to strike strategically rather than hectically. Why? Well, why not? When I play, it's not like I'm trying to prove my epeen is bigger or I'm badder than everyone else...I *know* I'm deadly. |
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| Let the Brute get the messy and I'll dissect intelligently. Not running or hiding or waiting, just pick and choose, execute and move on. And guess what? I actually get *rewarded* for doing that! I get free crits, I get damn near absolute mitigation and the team runs smoother. |
Stalkers are not gimps by any means. Especially since the buffs a few issues back, they have been pretty damned good damage dealers. However, they still lag the competition.
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they're single target because you get into all kinds of messy numbers with aoe, wher you have to figure out chance to hit, number in range, effect of range, etc. single is cleaner so people use it more.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Funny that, DPS chains are often *SINGLE TARGET*!
That I've seen people post numbers that pretty much equate to 'Stalkers and Scrappers are about even' and that those numbers don't take into account the free crits (probably can't as it's not something easily quantifiable) must also be a myth. |
That said, I have never seen dps calculations that DIDN'T take the crits into consideration.
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And the only actual competition taking place is in the minds of people who take min/maxing team composition far too seriously.|
Originally Posted by docbuzzard
Yes, and while you contribute a great deal in your head, if you weren't on the team it is fairly assured that nobody would notice. If they replaced your stalker with an ice blaster or another scrapper (or a brute, or a dom, etc), the killing would probably be faster.
Stalkers are not gimps by any means. Especially since the buffs a few issues back, they have been pretty damned good damage dealers. However, they still lag the competition. |
There is one and only one criteria that I ever consider: is the team makeup allowing my teammates and I to have fun? If the answer is yes, I don't care if the team is 7 stalkers and a petless MM.
Really none of this "well that AT contributes more mathematically" matters AT ALL to me. It only matters to some people because they want it to matter for themselves. Which is fine, that's how they have fun. I only take issue with it when it directly impacts someone else's ability to play the AT they want. In this case, Stalkers.
I'll say it again: if the team is moving at a good pace, and no one is causing any problems, what's the point of worrying over who mathematically makes the most contribution? I was in a pug team the other day and I guarantee you my Brute could have solo'd every mission we did. But we all still had fun.
If you gave Stalkers the same AOEs as Scrappers and Brutes wouldn't that just make the Stalker functionally better in nearly every circumstances with their guarenteed crits and higher crit percentages? I really don't see what Stalkers just can't be what they are. They solo great and team fine. If all three melee ATs were somehow balanced to be the same effectively, I think it'd just be more boring.
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It would be boring. You neglected to mention Tankers in your overview, but I would say that the melee ATs (including EATs) all bring something to the table and are pretty solid as a group. I rather wonder if Tankers should get something like the new Defender Vigilance for soloing, but the ATs overall are pretty good. I think it's really only powersets that need balancing at this point.
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Originally Posted by SBeaudway
If you gave Stalkers the same AOEs as Scrappers and Brutes wouldn't that just make the Stalker functionally better in nearly every circumstances with their guarenteed crits and higher crit percentages? I really don't see what Stalkers just can't be what they are. They solo great and team fine. If all three melee ATs were somehow balanced to be the same effectively, I think it'd just be more boring.
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Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
While I understand the importance of discussing Stalker DPS versus other melee ATs, it is also important to notice that Brutes can also function as a meatshield for the entire spawn (via Taunt, single target Punchvoke, and Taunt Aura) and that most Scrappers can grab a large portion of dangerous aggro (via their Taunt aura).
Stalkers do get demoralize (chance for fear and -to-hit with Assassin Strike), but their low threat and placate shift some aggro to the other teammates.
Another important point to remember in comparing straight DPS ATs versus buffing/debuffing ATs is that Fulcrum Shift, Freezing Rain, Tar Patch, Sleet, Enervating Field, Accelerate Metabolism etc. all increase damage dealt to the spawn by the entire team, thus creating a multiplicative effect. None of these straight DPS ATs offer that. They instead offer things such aggro control, consistent damage (regardless of mez), and in the stalkers case, single target burst.
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The point was, you bring up the melee ATs and DPS...acknowledge the advantage of stalker's burst and ST dmg and yet...DPS calculations are done with only one target in mind.|
Originally Posted by docbuzzard
DPS chain studies are by definition, single target. You might want to do a little research, or maybe comprehend what I wrote. Either way, you'd come off as more coherent.
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Basically, it's contradicting yourself harping on about some sort of disparity yet state the fact that a Stalker has no problem pumping out the DPS.
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| I've yet to see anyone make a claim that stalkers keep up with scrappers or brutes. If you have evidence to that effect, feel free. I've watched the DPS king threads and it is always between brutes and scrappers. Stalkers with a full team in close proximity, might keep up, but I consider it unlikely (given the limits on the crit boosting range and all that). |
It's not that Stalkers *can't* it's just Stalkers do it in a fashion that Scrapperlock/BRUTE SMASH addicts don't care for.
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| They are kings of burst DPS. However scrappers and brutes exceed them in sustained DPS, and are more survivable. They also, on any given set, exceed stalkers in AOE damage (at best a stalker matches as in electric melee). Burst DPS isn't terribly important in this game outside of PVP. Thus the strength of the stalker really doesn't manifest itself in most of the game. |
Stalkers may not overshadow brutes or scrappers in DPS(considering said DPS is narrowed to ST), but they are competitive. If Stalkers had better DPS and burst damage, why invite a Scrapper or Brute at all?
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Yes, and while you contribute a great deal in your head, if you weren't on the team it is fairly assured that nobody would notice. If they replaced your stalker with an ice blaster or another scrapper (or a brute, or a dom, etc), the killing would probably be faster. Stalkers are not gimps by any means. Especially since the buffs a few issues back, they have been pretty damned good damage dealers. However, they still lag the competition. |
Now if the team *isn't* steamrolling, most likely I as a Stalker can make battles go somewhat smoother. Would it be better to get a corruptor? Or a Dom? Depends. What if there is enough control (more control doesn't make things magically easier)? Or enemy mezzers taking out the corruptors? Or retarded debuffs being thrown out? I can take care of that as a Stalker while pumping out good damage. If I have to sacrifice max DPS to focus my attention on destroying foes that hinder the team, so be it.
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So you would invite them just because they are a stalker? |
Originally Posted by Arbiter_Shade
That being said I would never NOT invite a stalker to a team just because it was a stalker.
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Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
Lower amounts of AOE is only a problem if you put blinders on. There are plenty of places where you want good single target damage, and someone putting that damage where it needs to be. Stalkers are fine since they were adjusted... it's just the folks with blinders that seem to think they are not.
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Stalkers doing more st burst probably doesn't offset their loss of aoe damage and they tend to shed agro onto teammates rather than attract it.
There usually isn't a compelling reason to pick a stalker over a scrapper unless your team is already strong enough that it can make do with someone deflecting agro onto the other people AND you have less use for aoe damage.
If I had my way I'd increase stalker base damage again. There isn't really a lot else that can easily be done for them. If they are going to excel at single target stuff them let them excel at it. It's not like their st burst is all that amazing either. At least not once you tie in the conditions. I'd move them up to 1.3 and then debates like this would cease to exist and the AT could sink or swim based on having obvious advantages and disadvantages relative to other AT's in the most important metric the game carries - enemy defeats (aka damage delivery)
I don't get why many bring up the "lack of dmg" stalkers seem to not have. They have the classic ST chain and then they have AS which dishes out over 1000 dmg with build up(at lvl 50)...then you hit Placate and use AS to dish out roughly 700 dmg. Then after that you continue with your chain and....when placate recharges which is only 30 seconds w/o hasten on a lvl 50 stalker you repeat. Sounds good to me.
Stalkers also can "distract" I can't hold aggro of the whole mob that well with a stalker but I can keep Bosses, EB's and AV's annoyed. Also with double or triple Stacked Divine Avalanche and Shadow Meld you can keep a half of the mob busy and have them questioning why you are not Dead yet.
I would like to see how they put out less dmg when we all know Stalkers are supposedly the Blasters of Redside...even though Masterminds pull ahead but there's not much a mastermind can't do.
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Oh goody this rebuttal again. It is, in fact, the most useless form of argument we see, and yet we see it all the time. |
Originally Posted by Steel_Shaman
And the only actual competition taking place is in the minds of people who take min/maxing team composition far too seriously.
There is one and only one criteria that I ever consider: is the team makeup allowing my teammates and I to have fun? If the answer is yes, I don't care if the team is 7 stalkers and a petless MM. Really none of this "well that AT contributes more mathematically" matters AT ALL to me. It only matters to some people because they want it to matter for themselves. Which is fine, that's how they have fun. I only take issue with it when it directly impacts someone else's ability to play the AT they want. In this case, Stalkers. I'll say it again: if the team is moving at a good pace, and no one is causing any problems, what's the point of worrying over who mathematically makes the most contribution? I was in a pug team the other day and I guarantee you my Brute could have solo'd every mission we did. But we all still had fun. |
Look, if you are not comparing ATs in quantifiable terms (DPS, DPAS, damage mitigation, buffing potential, debuffing potential), then you are blowing smoke. Subjective analysis is utterly meaningless. It's like having a discussion of nutritional value, and then countering with "I like chocolate". That's all well and nice, but it is utterly irrelevant.
There are things which can be measured with numbers and hence can be compared objectively. Fun is not one of those things.
If you are trying to argue about the comparative effectiveness of ATs, you have to use an objective quantifiable basis for comparison or you the argument might as well be "my daddy can beat up your daddy" in preschool.
If you are balancing ATs and power sets you have to use the hard numbers. Any other basis is nonsense.
Too many alts to list.
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I'm left wondering if you are deliberately trying not to make sense, or do you really lack comprehension to that degree? |
Originally Posted by Leo_G
The point was, you bring up the melee ATs and DPS...acknowledge the advantage of stalker's burst and ST dmg and yet...DPS calculations are done with only one target in mind.
Basically, it's contradicting yourself harping on about some sort of disparity yet state the fact that a Stalker has no problem pumping out the DPS. |
Burst damage is not the same thing as sustained DPS. Assassin's strike is amazing burst damage, but you cannot stand next to a target and sustain that kind of damage (against, say, an AV or GM). If you don't realize that difference, you really should give up on arguing because it is fundamental.
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Then look in more places than that. If they aren't talking about Stalkers what makes you think they'll bother making the calculations for them? |
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| It's not that Stalkers *can't* it's just Stalkers do it in a fashion that Scrapperlock/BRUTE SMASH addicts don't care for. |
Look, I hate to break it to you, but there is no anti-stalker conspiracy. The fact is they simply lag in performance. It's not by a huge margin offensively (except in AOEs generally), but it is the case.
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| What is 'Burst DPS'? Is that like DPA or DPE? Now we've got multiple versions of DPx? As far as I know, 'Damage Per Second' is always sustained. By it's very nature, it averages out any type of possible bursts capable by a powerset (i.e. averaging out crits and BU over time rather than how it dynamically affects enemies). |
Look, it's as simple as this- build up+assassin's strike from hide is a devastatingly effective combo. However if you are sitting adjacent to a target which can take a lot of damage (AV, GM, Hero) that burst only happens rarely since it requires a number of things to recharge (placate and build up at the least). Also since AS is interrupt-able it is hard to consider it a viable sustained DPS ability.
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| Stalkers may not overshadow brutes or scrappers in DPS(considering said DPS is narrowed to ST), but they are competitive. If Stalkers had better DPS and burst damage, why invite a Scrapper or Brute at all? |
However since burst damage really doesn't gain one a heck of a lot outside of PVP, it's not a really good trade for the stalker. In truth stalkers ought to be the kings of single target damage. They sacrifice other things, and as such should be tops somewhere.
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| Because, even on my Brute or Scrapper, I'm not in some self-imposed ego-trip that dictates I must be better than everything or everyone. If the team is already steamrolling, it wouldn't matter if I was there, I disappeared or if they added another dom or brute or whatever. They'll still be steamrolling. Period. That they'd be steamrolling 3.9 seconds faster if it was a Brute is only relevant to the elitist. |
As I said in another post, this isn't about being twink gods, and saying that an AT isn't fun. Those things are irrelevant. Either by the numbers stalkers are as good as scrappers and brutes or they are not. This is a demonstrable comparison. Stalkers neither match those ATs in sustained DPS nor in survivability. Burst DPS doesn't have enough utility to justify the imbalance. The only argument that could be made in favor of a stalker would be to find a way to claim that burst DPS was game deciding, but it simply isn't.
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| Now if the team *isn't* steamrolling, most likely I as a Stalker can make battles go somewhat smoother. Would it be better to get a corruptor? Or a Dom? Depends. What if there is enough control (more control doesn't make things magically easier)? Or enemy mezzers taking out the corruptors? Or retarded debuffs being thrown out? I can take care of that as a Stalker while pumping out good damage. If I have to sacrifice max DPS to focus my attention on destroying foes that hinder the team, so be it. |
There are few enough places where the stalker raison d'etre is enough reason to be. Those places can generally be accomplished almost as easily by someone else. The game just doesn't work in a fashion such that the well placed assassin is key to success.
Too many alts to list.
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To borrow your own phrase: "oh goody this rebuttal again."|
Originally Posted by docbuzzard
Oh goody this rebuttal again. It is, in fact, the most useless form of argument we see, and yet we see it all the time.
Look, if you are not comparing ATs in quantifiable terms (DPS, DPAS, damage mitigation, buffing potential, debuffing potential), then you are blowing smoke. Subjective analysis is utterly meaningless. It's like having a discussion of nutritional value, and then countering with "I like chocolate". That's all well and nice, but it is utterly irrelevant. There are things which can be measured with numbers and hence can be compared objectively. Fun is not one of those things. If you are trying to argue about the comparative effectiveness of ATs, you have to use an objective quantifiable basis for comparison or you the argument might as well be "my daddy can beat up your daddy" in preschool. If you are balancing ATs and power sets you have to use the hard numbers. Any other basis is nonsense. |
It's a game, it's not calculus. Stalkers are not gimped. They are single target specialists in a game where most players focus on AoE. That does not make them useless. In your opinion it does, but your opinion is not an objective fact.
But please do enlighten me. Show me the single target DPS of a stalker compared to a scrapper. And I can tell you right now, there better be one HELL of a difference to justify calling the entire Stalker AT completely useless. That's my whole point: they do sufficient damage to NOT "bring down" the team.
But the folks like yourself insist that because that damage is not "OMG massive AoE" or includes "OMG massive debuffs" the entire AT is completely pointless and shouldn't be invited ever if another AT is available. I call hogwash on that argument.
You are making the mistaking of vastly underestimating the usefulness of the Stalker ability to almost instantly eliminate very dangerous targets.
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Learn to read. I mean really, just learn to read. I've said in pretty much every post that the stalkers don't lag that much in damage, and are certainly not a worthless AT. They are not gimped. They are not useless. |
Originally Posted by Steel_Shaman
To borrow your own phrase: "oh goody this rebuttal again."
It's a game, it's not calculus. Stalkers are not gimped. They are single target specialists in a game where most players focus on AoE. That does not make them useless. In your opinion it does, but your opinion is not an objective fact. But please do enlighten me. Show me the single target DPS of a stalker compared to a scrapper. And I can tell you right now, there better be one HELL of a difference to justify calling the entire Stalker AT completely useless. That's my whole point: they do sufficient damage to NOT "bring down" the team. But the folks like yourself insist that because that damage is not "OMG massive AoE" or includes "OMG massive debuffs" the entire AT is completely pointless and shouldn't be invited ever if another AT is available. I call hogwash on that argument. You are making the mistaking of vastly underestimating the usefulness of the Stalker ability to almost instantly eliminate very dangerous targets. |
I'll repeat it a few hundred extra times if that is necessary to sink in.
If the only way you can argue is by setting up straw men to fight against, I'd recommended you find a better way to spend your time.
Look, stalkers lag the other melee damage ATs a bit. They don't match the sustained DPS, and they are slightly less survivable. This is just how it is.
It doesn't make them useless, it makes them unbalanced. They have one strength, and that's burst DPS. However the game doesn't have much use for burst DPS out side of PVP and very rare instances in the PVE game.
I know you want to get huffy and put words in my mouth, but what is, is. I play stalkers because I like the AT. I don't let my like for the AT get in the way of recognizing their limitations.
Too many alts to list.
So you're ignoring all but 3 primaries (because only MA, DM, and EM have "0 AoEs until 41") to discount an entire AT, and while most of the primaries gave up a single PBAoE, that doesn't mean that they have none, and one primary (Electric Melee) gives up zero AoE damage for Stalkers.
Maybe if you'd do a little looking into things you'd be able to come up with an argument, but everything you posted in here to back up your argument works much better against it because you couldn't be bothered to do more then regurgitate ignorant drivel into a post.