What Changes are needed to make Stalkers an acceptable addition to a Team?
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-07-03 19:14 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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I can somewhat simpathize with the OP but that was for stalkers before the buff. It was always lol stalkers anytime I tried to join a TF. Post buff thats changed alot but I think with the mix of things happening with GR we could get regulated back to lol stalkers again due to scrappers.
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Originally Posted by Steel_Shaman
Test_Rat, what server do you play on?
I have never, in nearly 6 years of play, seen anyone make any comments like you describe. Threatening to quit a team over what AT's got invited? Openly insulting the AT choice of a team mate? I'm not questioning that you did experience these things, but it seems completely foreign to me. That's just not the CoH community I'm accustomed to interacting with. As for Stalkers, I rather like having them around. I know that with a competent stalker that One Big Bad Nasty in the spawn isn't going to live very long. Since Big Bad Nasty's often have rather annoying powers, this makes me happy. As others have said, I don't think anything needs to change with Stalkers. They're fine as they are. I am, however, still waiting on that RL Patch that is supposed to be fixing many people's brains. Sadly it has never arrived. |
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I don't no what you talking about, there nothing wrong with Stalkers, Stalkers can get to places the other Alts on the team can't. they got Sleath so let say they can run up any glowie, during a glowie mish and click on them, with out being spotted, they can also rush to the last room on a mish map and use Assemble the Team or Recall friend to get to the boss faster. Also they not bad when comes to killing an Imported Enemy with Assassin Strike. I never in my life dealt with somebody Quiting a team because of being a Stalker, In my book Stalkers can do alot of good, Maybe it's the player behind the Stalker that people don't like or maybe you don't no how to play one right.
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The wolf pack has kept a low profile since the stalker changes. The Wolf Pack still hunts and the stacked demoralized is helpful. |
Originally Posted by Necrotron_RO
The Repeat Offenders had a project called the Wolf Pack that did just that running for awhile. All the Stalkers would queue up next to the bosses, AS at the same time, and wreck havoc.
It's champions have been busy elsewhere of late though. |
/e howl
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Replace the secondaries with modified support sets. |
Originally Posted by Test_Rat
So what must be changed with the AT?
What addtions or subtractions can be done to the stalker AT to make them a welcome part of the City of game as a whole, instead of something people point at and use to comfort themselves and say "at least I am not him!" |
Poison, trick arrow, traps, dark miasma, radiation, kinetics - for starters.
Make Hide an inherent power instead of wasting a power from the secondary on it.
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It isn't really a problem with stalkers so much as it is the now AoE centric nature of the game itself. Stalkers ARE good at what they do, but as already pointed out, by the time they have dealt with 1 boss, the rest of the team destroyed the rest of the spawn. And yes, that is true for any single-target specialist.
To compound the issue, the really hard targets are taken down more by great debuffs instead of raw single-target damage. Look no further than the slew of AT builds that pack -regen, -dmg, etc. that can solo AV/GMs. And no, AS demoralize doesn't hold a candle in that comparison.
So stalkers are stuck in a game where their specialty role is simply marginalized. AoE damage is king along with great debuffs/force multiplication. I'm one of the people that WANTS to like to play stalkers, but can't stick with it for these reasons. I have more fun joining in the mass AoE steamroll.
Os - I agree completely.
Someone asked me what foes were our team fighting - on my +3 x 8 mobs - I don't recall but I believe it was Freaks.
I don't see personally how a stalker can overcome the single shot issue unless you add something to them. Give me a team buff of +def or + resistance that increases with party size.
Stalkers don't want aggro and therefore don't take alphas, the delay in AS is a HUGE issue. How about you lower the time required to AS for each teammate. Take that 5 -10 second setup and drop it to where I can AS every 2 seconds in an 8 man team. Now I can be a force.
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Originally Posted by GreenFIame
I don't no what you talking about, there nothing wrong with Stalkers, Stalkers can get to places the other Alts on the team can't. they got Sleath so let say they can run up any glowie, during a glowie mish and click on them, with out being spotted, they can also rush to the last room on a mish map and use Assemble the Team or Recall friend to get to the boss faster. Also they not bad when comes to killing an Imported Enemy with Assassin Strike.
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Anyone with superspeed + a stealth IO, a stealth power, or just good enough survivability (tank/scrapper/anyone with PFF or soft capped defense) can do that already, while being a lot more useful than a stalker (actually ANY AT is more useful than a stalker).
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The game is not balanced around fighting +3 x8 though. It is balanced around +0 x0. It is also not balanced around IO's, Purples, Temp Powers, or whatever else the gurus agree upon is the correct way to play. The game assumes standard difficulty settings and SO's. That's it. Anything above and beyond that is completely unnecessary. So if an AT performs properly at the base difficulty, then there is nothing wrong with the AT. It's just that simple.|
Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
Os - I agree completely.
Someone asked me what foes were our team fighting - on my +3 x 8 mobs - I don't recall but I believe it was Freaks. I don't see personally how a stalker can overcome the single shot issue unless you add something to them. Give me a team buff of +def or + resistance that increases with party size. Stalkers don't want aggro and therefore don't take alphas, the delay in AS is a HUGE issue. How about you lower the time required to AS for each teammate. Take that 5 -10 second setup and drop it to where I can AS every 2 seconds in an 8 man team. Now I can be a force. |
I have tanked an SF on my Stalker. There's absolutely nothing wrong with the AT.
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Define what you mean by useful please.|
Originally Posted by Celidya
Anyone with superspeed + a stealth IO, a stealth power, or just good enough survivability (tank/scrapper/anyone with PFF or soft capped defense) can do that already, while being a lot more useful than a stalker (actually ANY AT is more useful than a stalker).
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If the Stalker is taking out the high priority threats and also contributing to the overall success of the team by doing additional damage to the other mobs, what's the problem? So what if said Stalker doesn't put half the spawn at half life or give everyone Fulcrum Shift? If the team is moving at a reasonable pace and no one is dying, what is the problem?
They didn't say Stalkers weren't useful, they said almost every other AT is MORE useful in most situations than a Stalker. And I have to agree. Most AT's have ways to take out "high priority" targets from the fight. Holds, debuffs, etc. Stalkers simply do it by death and be done with it.
Also, balancing the game around +0/x0 and SOs has nothing to do with actual team makeup, gameplay, and performance. The simple fact is that this game heavily favors mass AoE and most stalkers don't bring that to the table. And those same AoE teams are more than capable of dealing with the single tough targets as well, with or without a stalker.
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You've missed my point.|
Originally Posted by Osmiridium
They didn't say Stalkers weren't useful, they said almost every other AT is MORE useful in most situations than a Stalker. And I have to agree. Most AT's have ways to take out "high priority" targets from the fight. Holds, debuffs, etc. Stalkers simply do it by death and be done with it.
Also, balancing the game around +0/x0 and SOs has nothing to do with actual team makeup, gameplay, and performance. The simple fact is that this game heavily favors mass AoE and most stalkers don't bring that to the table. And those same AoE teams are more than capable of dealing with the single tough targets as well, with or without a stalker. |
My point is: who cares that a Dom can hold that Sapper instead of outright killing him? If the team is capable of chugging right along just fine with a Stalker instead of a Dom/Corr/Brute/MM/Pink Pony in that team slot, it doesn't matter. People keep talking like Stalkers make absolutely no contribution at all because they don't make the contribution they want them to make. That simply isn't true.
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Among plenty of other differences, such as most secondaries of Scrappers have a taunt aura and automatically aggro whatever is in point blank range, whereas Stalkers have low threat, take much less aggro, and even shift it to other members of the team via Placate.|
Originally Posted by Kelenar
Well, that's been a lot of the discussion, that Stalkers don't always do more damage than Scrappers, and when they do, it's not enough to make up for the reduced survivability for many people. And while most of the Stalker primaries have some AoE, they pretty much universally have less of it than a Scrapper would bring to the table with the same sets, and in some cases (MA/ and EM/) have none.
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Of course, Stalkers get the demoralize fear and -to-hit from their AS.
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No, the point is very clear. In an AoE centric game, single-target specialists will be contributing less. Still contributing sure, but less than others. Stalkers themselves are fine, it's the game around them.
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I totally agree. I think the point is having fun, and given that ATs can all add plenty enough to a team, who cares if who you're inviting isn't Kinetics or a Bubbler or etc. etc. Let's just fill the roles we can and have fun doing so.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
The game has gone from "Cool, I'm a superhero!" to "Speed speed speed now now now, I need to get all the shinies as fast as I can!" Which saddens me a little bit. A video game has become an excercise in being as efficient as humanly possible.
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I think this thread is addressing an symptom of an overall issue with the game. Stalkers like any other Single Target damage specialist will be overshadowed by an AOE specialist or even generalist, simpply because the game favors AOE damage so much. I mean how many ice/ blasters or corruptors do you see? Martial arts Scrappers? Energy melee tanks? Single target damage has lost a lot of value in this game. Stalkers specialty is simply just not that special in the modern game environment.
Yeah i don't care much for stalkers honestly, and even less about who is in the team. I just know i won't play one cause for me the fun comes from AOE goodness. Most content is easy enough that 1-3 good archetypes can do it, then fill the rest of the team with sidekicks, random AT/players, and nobody cares.
However the difference anyone makes to a team is what matters when it comes to how easy it is to group. Any support archetype will usually be welcome in a team, while solo-oriented archetypes tend to fill up the holes. And out of those solo-oriented archetypes, stalker is the least useful as it's the typical solo AT, designed for solo fights against one boss and some minions. They help a bit in a team, fine, but who cares that the stalker can kill one boss fast when most spawns will have several of them, anyway. We'd have to do some maths but i'm sure with 3 boss in the spawn AoE can do more than the stalker ST, maybe even with two bosses. To make it viable we'd need a stalker who can kill all the bosses as fast as others kill the rest of the mobs: it's ridiculous and won't happen.
And the stalker ST damage is nowhere near enough, simply because ST can't hit several mobs while AOE work as well on a single mob, so even an AOE specialist can help well enough on a single target while the ST specialist... well he can't do anything against several mobs.
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Mentioned this earlier, but my current experiment has turned out very successful for my Stalker. He's Dark Melee/Ninjitsu and I took Provoke.
I alpha the mob with AS, then Scrap it out, using Provoke to keep the bosses from crushing the squishy corrupters. Then I will Smoke Flash (to release aggro), Placate, Build Up, AS a boss, and follow with Provoke again.
I was always frustrated watching my teammates die when I had strong survivability. Heck, I used to watch team wipes when I hadn't even touched my self heal yet. So I took provoke. Do I need to use it all the time? No. But if I see the Cold Corrupter who has buffed me to the soft cap being chased by two freak tanks, I can provoke and duke it out with them rather than watch him get crushed, putting my survivability to good use. Rikti Mentalist? Well, better he try to hold me when I have mez protection than the Kinetics Corrupter.
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If the team is capable of chugging along fine rthen why are they inviting the stalker in the first place. The purpose of getting more people on the team is to do things faster or at a higher difficulty than you were able to do before.|
Originally Posted by Steel_Shaman
You've missed my point.
My point is: who cares that a Dom can hold that Sapper instead of outright killing him? If the team is capable of chugging right along just fine with a Stalker instead of a Dom/Corr/Brute/MM/Pink Pony in that team slot, it doesn't matter |
If my emp adds a AoE scrapper, then I can change my normal 0/1 to 0/8 without blinking. If it were a stalker instead, then maybe we would be able to take the default 0/2, but that's no net increase. Adding people and barely holding steady isn't an improvement. With the exception of speed running TFs and very little other select content, stalkers are a warm body in the group. A net zero gain.
I can't think of any combo of characters from solo to 7 man where adding a stalker would drastically change the game. Every other character will make someone's day by enhancing them with some great synergistic effect, but the stalker is meh - just someone to fill the team.
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Originally Posted by FredrikSvanberg
Replace the secondaries with modified support sets.
Poison, trick arrow, traps, dark miasma, radiation, kinetics - for starters. Make Hide an inherent power instead of wasting a power from the secondary on it. |
To be fair, all 2ary sets are forced to pick Hide as the first power. Which other AT has to pick the same power across the entire 2ary? It is not a bad idea at all to make it an inherent power.
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Thing is, this is what ANY AT needs to have to be good at teaming.|
Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
What stalkers need is damage. AoE damage.
Without that they fill no purpose almost any other AT can't do better. |
There are tons of sets that focus on single target damage, and yet you don't see hordes of people complaining about how useless they are.
Ice Blasters, Psi Blasters, Energy Melee on any character, Martial Arts on any character, Dark melee, etc.
Fact of the matter is, the only problem with stalkers is set disparity vs Teamed and Solo.
Some sets, Broadsword, Ninja Blade, Martial Arts, Dark Melee, and Energy Melee, are going to be better solo, due to their single-target damage focus.
Conversely, other sets, Electric Melee, Spines, Dual Blades, Claws, are going to be better for teaming.
So what are the odds Castle will give stalkers a second look?
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My bad. All you low post count, non-avatar posters blend together to me >_>|
Originally Posted by Osmiridium
You should reread my post again before flying off the handle. I already said the debuffs attached to AS supplement the rest of the team outside of the soloing boost and surviving the first strike. Also, no where did I say stalkers could NOT solo, I said it helps. Unless of course you feel the demoralize doesn't "help", but I figure you are reading what you want to.
Yes, I didn't include the fact that you have to attack a feared target for them to retaliate. But, it WILL retaliate immediately the FIRST time it is attacked after the fear is applied. So unless you just stand there looking at the mobs until it wears off, expect a counter attack. Giving up damage is expected when the debuffs are vastly superior. /Dark was the easy example since it has one power that is more than twice as effective as demoralize in the -tohit dept(even more when slotted for it, no option to slot for the demoralize effect), longer lasting fear, is much better than a 25% chance to land (I know based on the accuracy, I figure I better say that this time so you don't came back and nitpick that either), and affects a much larger area. That power also takes just over 2 seconds to cast, from range no less. Yes, if I am looking for debuffs, I'll give up some damage for that. Stalkers bring damage. The minor utility is a "useful" by-product. If I was leading a team and a stalker advertised themselves as a debuffer, they aren't coming along. |
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Let me relate a personal story to you. Running in a team doing +3 x 8 with my Electric/Ninja stalker. I would isolate one of the bosses hit him and kill him turn around and the team had killed everything else and had the other boss in the spawn nearly dead. My contribution? 1 boss out of what 16-17 foes in the group. I watched after that and let the team know I was going to test something. The next spawn I just watched - never attacked. It took maybe 5-10 seconds longer for them to defeat the spawn. It was demoralizing. I was contributing almost nothing - to add to it I then switched to my Fire/Dark corr and the team now was a steamroller and it cut the time in half from what we had been doing with my stalker. I then deleted my level 39 stalker. |
Conversly, take an Elec melee/ or /Elec melee anything else and try to do the same thing on a team. Guess what. They're going to be vastly slower than an Elec stalker unless they're Shield Defense...and then, they're probably almost as fast.
Not that you can't or shouldn't, but an Elec Stalker should be looking to take out Lts and wiping out minions, not focusing on bosses.
I thought there was a bigger buff for stalkers that got scaled back some. If I recall correctly demoralize was much better than what we got on live.
When the devs look over the TF/SF complete numbers and decide stalkers are being left out.
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Originally Posted by EvilRyu
So what are the odds Castle will give stalkers a second look?
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H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
Top 4: Controller, Brute, Scrapper, Corruptor
Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
CoH in WQHD
Actually when Stlakers were being buffed, one proposed solution was a scaling AS based on rank. BEcuase the numbers never worked out properly Stalkers were nearly 1 shoting AV's that scaled down to EB level.
I don't remember demoralize being any different though.
Running in a team doing +3 x 8 with my Electric/Ninja stalker.
I would isolate one of the bosses hit him and kill him turn around and the team had killed everything else and had the other boss in the spawn nearly dead.
My contribution? 1 boss out of what 16-17 foes in the group. I watched after that and let the team know I was going to test something.
The next spawn I just watched - never attacked. It took maybe 5-10 seconds longer for them to defeat the spawn. It was demoralizing. I was contributing almost nothing - to add to it I then switched to my Fire/Dark corr and the team now was a steamroller and it cut the time in half from what we had been doing with my stalker. I then deleted my level 39 stalker.
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