What Changes are needed to make Stalkers an acceptable addition to a Team?
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-07-03 19:14 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Answer to the OP: A good player.
Nothing else is required.
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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Fixed that for you. |
Originally Posted by Test_Rat
And you can stick you fingers in your ears and imagine that teams just pick up anyone and run, but in reality stalkers very often are excluded from consideration because some players think that there is no compelling reason to take one over a scrapper, brute, tank.
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And fortunately not all players think like you do.
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If Brutes can have a stealth power, Scrappers can get a modded version of Ninjutsu. Hide is right out, but nothing against a more conventional stealth power. Caltrops is an issue, but so was Conserve Power in /Elec, and the devs managed to both improve the set *AND* port it to Scrappers when they changed it. Not that Ninjutsu needs a lot of improvement, I'm just saying.
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Originally Posted by Zamuel
Sorry to burst your bubble (with a pair of scuffed steel toe boots...) but I can't see Ninjitsu being proliferated. Scrappers won't get Hide and the epics already have Caltrops. Scrappers aren't designed to shed aggro on purpose so Smoke Flash and Blinding Powder are unlikely.
*shrug* Guess you're stuck with us. |
TEH WERDZ ON SKREEN HURTZ MI BRANE!
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Intriguingly, a few people have reported that it actually isn't hard capped. A while back some people were suggesting Stalkers take the Black Scorpion pool since he comes with three pets specifically due to this. Plus, Vigilance before I17 took pets into account so it's entirely possible the crit buff is taking pets into account.
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Originally Posted by Necrotron_RO
I'm betting they put a hard cap on it at 30%
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But then in that situation ST damage is worthless, so stalker are again at the bottom of the heap. The only time ST damage is worthwhile is doing an AV or a pylon. In both of those cases, any burst damage is going to lose ground quickly to sustained DPS. No, sustained ST DPS isn't that incredibly important, but any time it is useful, it will dwarf burst damage in usefulness.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
*discards the rest because it's just insulting drivel*
Who honestly believes that? Especially when considering some steamroller teams where a mob is dropped in seconds. How important is sustained DPS vs burst when you've got a blaster hopped up on buffs flying at your heels or a SD Brute ready to drop SC at the drop of a hat? |
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Name any combination of other ATs, from a single char to a 7 man team, where adding a stalker is the best thing you can add to complement the group - where you will complete harder content in the same time or the same content faster with a ST stalker than with any other character.
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Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
but don't put your head in the sand and pretend that Stalkers aren't worth playing or inviting.
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Yes Z feed him to the Hydra :P. Oh and wait...the Black Scorpion Pets still factor in with the Stalkers inherent? I thought they changed that? Hrmm, if not very interesting...
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Originally Posted by Zamuel
Intriguingly, a few people have reported that it actually isn't hard capped. A while back some people were suggesting Stalkers take the Black Scorpion pool since he comes with three pets specifically due to this. Plus, Vigilance before I17 took pets into account so it's entirely possible the crit buff is taking pets into account.
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The same can be said for any melee that doesn't focus on AoE.|
Originally Posted by rsclark
But then in that situation ST damage is worthless, so stalker are again at the bottom of the heap. The only time ST damage is worthwhile is doing an AV or a pylon. In both of those cases, any burst damage is going to lose ground quickly to sustained DPS. No, sustained ST DPS isn't that incredibly important, but any time it is useful, it will dwarf burst damage in usefulness.
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So if ST would be less useful, then bring AoEs. Or do Stalkers not get AoEs? And can they not burst with them?
What will result in more damage on a steamroll team where the spawns last seconds: A BU + Thunderstrike? Or a BU + Thunderstrike crit from hide?
How about a Blinding Feint + Typhoon Edge vs a BU + 1kCuts crit?
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I swore I was done with this thread but I just can't let it go.|
Originally Posted by rsclark
Name any combination of other ATs, from a single char to a 7 man team, where adding a stalker is the best thing you can add to complement the group - where you will complete harder content in the same time or the same content faster with a ST stalker than with any other character.
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So, here goes.....
LRSF, STF, and MO SF's.
That's about the ONLY content in this game I can think of that could even be truly called hard.
So why does it matter so much to you? Seriously, I want to know. CoH is a really fun game, but the overwhelming majority of its content just isn't hard enough to justify your concerns about team efficiency.
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Ooo, Mastermind and Stalker team test sounds interesting...
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Originally Posted by Zamuel
Intriguingly, a few people have reported that it actually isn't hard capped. A while back some people were suggesting Stalkers take the Black Scorpion pool since he comes with three pets specifically due to this. Plus, Vigilance before I17 took pets into account so it's entirely possible the crit buff is taking pets into account.
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Yup. i know that, because I said it. And as I also said, most other ATs aren't forced to give up AoE - they can simple focus slightly less on it. Stalkers are unique in having powersets that require completely giving up any AoE at all.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
The same can be said for any melee that doesn't focus on AoE.
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| So if ST would be less useful, then bring AoEs. Or do Stalkers not get AoEs? |
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Go get a Patron AoE and stop whining, then?|
Originally Posted by rsclark
Yup. i know that, because I said it. And as I also said, most other ATs aren't forced to give up AoE - they can simple focus slightly less on it. Stalkers are unique in having powersets that require completely giving up any AoE at all.
None of mine do. I'd gladly "bring the AoE" with my stalkers if the game gave me that option. |
If you picked a powerset with no AoEs and you want AoEs, who's fault is that!?
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So, you chose to completely ignore what I said?|
Originally Posted by Steel_Shaman
I swore I was done with this thread but I just can't let it go.
So, here goes..... LRSF, STF, and MO SF's. That's about the ONLY content in this game I can think of that could even be truly called hard. |
"Name any combination of other ATs, from a single char to a 7 man team"
You didn't do that. You named content, not group makeup.
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| So why does it matter so much to you? Seriously, I want to know. CoH is a really fun game, but the overwhelming majority of its content just isn't hard enough to justify your concerns about team efficiency. |
If you want to play a weaker character, then don't slot your powers. But don't expect me to be happy with the devs completely ignoring balance between characters for this one AT.
Also, as to the efficiency comment, I really love how people try to argue that they aren't weaker, but then fall back to say power isn't important. If you really believed that stalkers were balanced with other ATs, you wouldn't need to have this fallback argument.
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There is only one option for that. Again, poor design.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Go get a Patron AoE and stop whining, then?
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| If you picked a powerset with no AoEs and you want AoEs, who's fault is that!? |
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That you tricked yourself into believing 'you must have x and therefore the game is obligated to provide it to you' is your own failing, not the game's. It's the same argument the 'Make Stamina inherent' posters make. Because a powerset doesn't provide endurance management while others do so they 'need' stamina is the basic reason for that suggestion and it too is flawed.|
Originally Posted by rsclark
The developers for making a game where one thing is valuable and then making characters that don't offer that one thing. In a game where AoE matters more than any other option, they shouldn't have powersets without that option.
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But honestly, you defeat your own argument. This thread seems to be about why Stalkers are 'bad' yet your issue is with Energy Melee and Martial Arts. How about go making a thread on how to improve those sets then?
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You either misunderstood my point, or are choosing to ignore it.|
Originally Posted by rsclark
So, you chose to completely ignore what I said?
"Name any combination of other ATs, from a single char to a 7 man team" You didn't do that. You named content, not group makeup. Because a game demonstrates a better design if there are no trap choices. Picking different options in the game should be a dynamic between two good things both of which are desirable, not a situation where you're making a choice between being good and not as good. If you want to play a weaker character, then don't slot your powers. But don't expect me to be happy with the devs completely ignoring balance between characters for this one AT. Also, as to the efficiency comment, I really love how people try to argue that they aren't weaker, but then fall back to say power isn't important. If you really believed that stalkers were balanced with other ATs, you wouldn't need to have this fallback argument. |
My point is that this game in general terms is not difficult and/or challenging enough to require the extreme focus on maximized group composition that you appear to favor. Stalkers are by no means a "trap choice". They are not a bad AT at all, and I would welcome any Stalker any time to any team I am putting together. I'm just having trouble understanding why you have the view that you do.
This isn't a hardcore raid game that requires careful group composition to ensure the correct roles are present or that you have all the correct classes even. I am honestly baffled why you and some others seem to insist on treating it like it is though. This is why I don't follow that some people seem to think Stalkers are so bad they literally don't deserve a spot on a team.
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Reichsman!!!|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
If you picked a powerset with no AoEs and you want AoEs, who's fault is that!?
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He keeps getting in the way when I want to activate the console. He gives me this shiny button with a no aggro cap instant kill AOE and now he won't let me use it. Jerk.
Read through several pages, might have missed if someone said this already.
I think it's the kid factor really. Young player thinks the whole ninja stealth thing is cool. Look at me I'm a L33T ninja.. They run up behind the boss most of the time attacking before anyone is ready or expecting. Then they end up taking a dirt nap because they are not Defense Capped.
Sadly you see that enough you start to think every stalker is just a kid or a player who just doesn't have a clue.
But on the flip side, honestly I never seen a someone say don't pick up the stalker. But I would imagine there are many things I have not seen in the game. I think the Stalker effect is more magnified when the team is also lacking. If you have 8 players on a team and only 2 are defense capped then you start to see the usual Stalker attacks unannounced and then everyone running to help him. Healer dies from Heal aggro and then the chain reaction starts as players drop like flies leaving maybe the 2 defense capped players to mop up.. Of course sometimes they can get even overwhelmed and drop eventually.
On the other hand if you have a decent amount of player Defense capped, let us say 4 out of a group of 8. Then it really doesn't matter what the rest of the team is setup since the reality is those 4 are holding up the rest of the team by taking on the aggro.
I would clearly comment in your LFT that your Defense capped or what not. Make people know your set up decently. I always mention I am defense capped if I feel I am competing for a spot on a team that I want to be on to do something with. EG TF or SF. This way the TL knows I am a Healer or whatever and defense capped as well.
Personally I like when the Stalker brings a boss or some pesky mob down to near death or wipes the annoyance out completely. I am pretty sure there are many mobs players wish a stalker was around to AS.
1. Why Soft Cap is Important : http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...important.html
2. Limits: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives
The main issue I have with Stalkers is that their playstyle feels very... odd to me.
Maybe it's because I have no idea how to play one... but here's the issue.
Most teams aren't built around stealth. They're built around "go in, take out that group of mobs, move on."
Stalkers are built around sneaking ahead, scoping out a target, and assassinating them. Solo, that works fine. Solo Stalkers tend to be able to take the alphas of their current SRSLY Settings, and can take out enemies at their leisure.
Team play, however... When I played a stalker, I would try to set up an assassin's strike, only for it not to go off in time (or at all, sometimes). By the time it did go off, the fight was nearly over because I had spend 10 seconds performing one attack while everyone else was going all out.
The issue is in the timing. If you launch your strike before the team can gain aggro, you take the alpha with your low HP and weak Defenses.
If you wait too long, you land one hit and the fight is over.
Getting the timing right requires planning with your team. Which, on a pug...
Ugh.
Eventually I got frustrated and made a Brute. Stalker just isn't for me.
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When I'm on a team and the mob is only white or yellow con I avoid using AS unless we're fighting a boss or higher.|
Originally Posted by NightErrant
The main issue I have with Stalkers is that their playstyle feels very... odd to me.
Maybe it's because I have no idea how to play one... but here's the issue. Most teams aren't built around stealth. They're built around "go in, take out that group of mobs, move on." Stalkers are built around sneaking ahead, scoping out a target, and assassinating them. Solo, that works fine. Solo Stalkers tend to be able to take the alphas of their current SRSLY Settings, and can take out enemies at their leisure. Team play, however... When I played a stalker, I would try to set up an assassin's strike, only for it not to go off in time (or at all, sometimes). By the time it did go off, the fight was nearly over because I had spend 10 seconds performing one attack while everyone else was going all out. The issue is in the timing. If you launch your strike before the team can gain aggro, you take the alpha with your low HP and weak Defenses. If you wait too long, you land one hit and the fight is over. Getting the timing right requires planning with your team. Which, on a pug... Ugh. Eventually I got frustrated and made a Brute. Stalker just isn't for me. |
I, for example let the MM or brute grab the aggro and then I dive in. Instead of you trying to use your AS Night Errant you should use you most highest damaging attack that can crit. If you're in the fray with your teammates most likely you will crit and kill the baddie anyway(especially if you used build up). From there you just scap until that power is up again and then you look for something to kill, hit Placate, and then BAM! Rinse and Repeat!
If you're playing Spines or Elec you can put out some NASTY dmg when you're next to your buddies on team and if you are single target oriented you are still striking down most things in one or two hits!
That's not the concrete word on how to play them but it's how I like to do it ^_^.
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These are situations where I'd say the team is running on too low of a difficulty. But when it crops up and I can't get them to raise it, that's when I switch to AoE mode. Screw AS, I'll just open with Throw Spines. (And yes, this isn't an option for every primary.)
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Originally Posted by NightErrant
Team play, however... When I played a stalker, I would try to set up an assassin's strike, only for it not to go off in time (or at all, sometimes). By the time it did go off, the fight was nearly over because I had spend 10 seconds performing one attack while everyone else was going all out.
The issue is in the timing. If you launch your strike before the team can gain aggro, you take the alpha with your low HP and weak Defenses. If you wait too long, you land one hit and the fight is over. |
Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
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I almost never see this though, which is why I tend to believe it is more of a sterotype/bias than reality, probably even less a reality than the mythical "pure healer" who does nothing but heal (including not ever buffing, according to legend). I figure it comes mostly from the Stalker's PvP reputation rather than actual team play. I am willing to bet if you kept a list of all the clueless players you run across, Stalkers would probably account for around 5% of them. In other words, about their population's share of idiots... same as anyone.|
Originally Posted by plainguy
Sadly you see that enough you start to think every stalker is just a kid or a player who just doesn't have a clue.
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| But on the flip side, honestly I never seen a someone say don't pick up the stalker. |
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| I would clearly comment in your LFT that your Defense capped or what not. |
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| Make people know your set up decently. I always mention I am defense capped if I feel I am competing for a spot on a team that I want to be on to do something with. EG TF or SF. This way the TL knows I am a Healer or whatever and defense capped as well. |
Besides, it's fun to surprise them.
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| Personally I like when the Stalker brings a boss or some pesky mob down to near death or wipes the annoyance out completely. I am pretty sure there are many mobs players wish a stalker was around to AS. |
Now, if it's a steamroller, fulcrum-shifted team vaporizing spawns by breathing on them... at that point it hardly matters WHAT the eighth person on your team is doing. Send them out for coffee or something. You won't notice the difference.
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I've only really seen that attitude on Freedom. I get around quite a few servers. Not all the time, but I have seen it. Of course, I don't play Stalkers as much as some.
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Originally Posted by Zem
I probably have, but nothing like Test_Rat's "nearly 100% of the time". Sorry Test, but I just don't see that. I play on Virtue too and can get my Stalker on multiple PuG TF's every day if I want. That doesn't mean Stalkers are as balanced as they should be but it does mean they are "acceptable".
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I would say the dev has tried hard to give Stalker more PvE oriented abilities.
Spines is actually very good on a large team. You always want to start with Build Up + Throw Spine and then go in for Spine Burst or save Placate for another Throw Spine.
Claw is a bit less aoe but Shockwave is still very good.
Electricity, surprisingly, can be very good on a team because you can Build Up, Lightning Rod (still remain in Hidden) and then follow up with Thunder Strike on 2-3 baddies.
My problem with Stalker is some sets don't have any single aoe and ST damage isn't all that superb either. Yeah, I have problem with Martial Arts on Stalker. I think MA is very pointless on Stalker besides "theme" purpose. Energy Melee stuns a lot for great soloing. Dark Melee has better dps and some useful utilities. MA has a mix of things but master of none.
I've tried Ninja Blade. You just need to constantly find the best position for Flashing Blade to get more aoe. After they've increased melee range to 7', the cone is a lot easier to score 2 or more targets. I would assume this applies to Broadsword as well.
If you are on a team that stream rolls too fast. Don't even bother with AS. Just use your heavy cones or hitters to start the fight.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
I want to play ninjitsu so I will continue playing my stalkers.
(till they proliferate Ninjitsu to Scrappers, then I will reroll).
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