What Changes are needed to make Stalkers an acceptable addition to a Team?
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-07-03 19:14 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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About as likely as Villian Side getting More TFs without heroside getting them.|
Originally Posted by EvilRyu
So what are the odds Castle will give stalkers a second look?
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So collecting the views of the thread, the best advice for a new player who wants to get on TFs and teams would be NOT to play a stalker.
Stalkers are the worst choice because thier single target focus isn't needed in City of Heroes.
Even if you could find a case where single target focus is wanted, Scrappers and brutes do it better on average, and even under the most optimal situation in favor of the stalker, the edge doesn't make up for the stalker's shortcomings.
I think we can pretty much all agree with the above.
In light of the upcomming Endgame content which is rumored to be more difficult than standard play, I think the best recommendation is steer away from the stalker AT alltogether, as it will really hurt to be left on the sidelines when it comes to Endgame grouping.
Anyone who says stalkers aren't going to face severe issues in regard to harder content, when they aren't wanted for STANDARD content is very optimistic.
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
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This may be the best summary of the situation I've read.
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Originally Posted by Frosticus
There is nothing wrong with stalkers, there just isn't enough right about them.
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TEH WERDZ ON SKREEN HURTZ MI BRANE!
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Exactly. There is nothing to recommend anyone playing a stalker or teaming with a stalker.|
Originally Posted by Frosticus
There is nothing wrong with stalkers, there just isn't enough right about them. |
/end thread.
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
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Funny, my recommendation is to be the one with the star.
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Originally Posted by Test_Rat
I think the best recommendation is steer away from the stalker AT alltogether
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I think most stalkers take them upon themselves through personal choice, or by game decree, by solo'ing. You have the star then! |
Originally Posted by Zamuel
Funny, my recommendation is to be the one with the star.
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Bah, I want dat 30%+ crit rate (actually, I want Dominators laying out controls so aggro is a non issue but good enough). Solitude is not the path for every master young grasshopper.
I agree, I LOVE teaming with my stalker...if they are willing to have me.
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The scaling AS based on enemy rank didn't work well due to not all ranks being consistent, so it was arranged to work based on maxhp for a while, with varying parts being enhanceable vs unenhanceable in a few tests (I think 4% fully enhanceable was the best overall percentage given).|
Originally Posted by DMystic
Actually when Stlakers were being buffed, one proposed solution was a scaling AS based on rank. BEcuase the numbers never worked out properly Stalkers were nearly 1 shoting AV's that scaled down to EB level.
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This was problematic due to several reasons, not the least of which was Stalkers killing GMs solo with AS/Placate because a damage-capped Stalker could take away 20% of anything's hp in one hit before resistance was accounted for. It also made AS worse against anything smaller than an AV - although only marginally so against bosses - so for 99% of the game it was a nerf despite making them the go-to AT for GM soloing, being able to take out nearly anything in less than a minute.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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There is a difference between focusing on something and ONLY being able to do something. Stalker is the only AT where you can make your powerset choices and then know you will have zero AoE until 41 and only then if you pick one specific PPP for a AoE that does virtually non-existant damage.|
Originally Posted by Candlestick
Thing is, this is what ANY AT needs to have to be good at teaming.
There are tons of sets that focus on single target damage, and yet you don't see hordes of people complaining about how useless they are. Ice Blasters, Psi Blasters, Energy Melee on any character, Martial Arts on any character, Dark melee, etc. |
If you're steamrolling, you really only need one AoE and for it to be up usually for every group. Anything you do beyond that is gravy.
There's is a huge disparity between zero and 1.
And people do know that Energy Melee is the worst melee set.
Correct me on this, but isn't Energy Melee actually considered good for Stalkers due to the burst damage and higher stun chances?
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Plus it's pure energy (iirc) and that tends to not be so heavily resisted.
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Originally Posted by Zamuel
Correct me on this, but isn't Energy Melee actually considered good for Stalkers due to the burst damage and higher stun chances?
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It's not so "much good on stalkers" as it is "only a reasonable choice on stalkers and not on anyone else". Stalkers and EM both play to the same nearly useless strength. EM is good on a stalker compared to how well it works on any other AT, but that still doesn't make it good in an overall sense.
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Originally Posted by Zamuel
Correct me on this, but isn't Energy Melee actually considered good for Stalkers due to the burst damage and higher stun chances?
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Doesn't make much difference on Victory. Even with someone like Hamster that doesn't like Stalkers, he still invites them after some ribbing. It's with good reason, too. Stalkers bring something to the table like other ATs, so people should play what they want and bring what they want. There isn't too much content that requires certain team setups.|
Originally Posted by Zamuel
Funny, my recommendation is to be the one with the star.
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I like it that way.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
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Thank you Grey Pilgrim. You much more eloquently said the point I was trying to convey a couple pages back. The game's content (for the most part) doesn't require specific team makeups, so why the heck not bring a stalker? It's not like their attacks heal the mobs, but the way some folks in this thread talk you'd think they did.
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Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
Doesn't make much difference on Victory. Even with someone like Hamster that doesn't like Stalkers, he still invites them after some ribbing. It's with good reason, too. Stalkers bring something to the table like other ATs, so people should play what they want and bring what they want. There isn't too much content that requires certain team setups.
I like it that way. |
I personally invite literally anyone and any at to my teams, but I can understand why some players react the way they do to stalkers. Some players want to have 'uber teams' where every member is giving maximum contribution, and that would be toons that excel on teams, either by providing massive buffs or debuffs, or doing massive aoe damage or aggro generation. I primarily play scrappers, and I used to see a similar prejudice before shield defense showed up, especially on task forces where teams were looking to finish as quickly as possible.
Even the best spines stalker isn't going to contribute on a large team as much as a rad defender or a controller or a dom or a cor or a mm, etc. (on avg, all things being equal). This used to be more balanced and fair when the situation used to exist where some ats were much better soloers and paid for that by being weaker on teams, while other ats were much weaker soloers while being stronger on teams. It seems that over the past couple of years, the at's that were weak solo and stronger on teams were buffed a bit to be stronger solo, but the ats that were strong solo and weaker on teams have not been buffed for team play. But if the op thinks its hard to get on a tf team, try doing it on an em stalker, lol.
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Useless my eye. My VEAT cuts through swaths of minions and lieutenants pretty well with all his AOEs, but hates hard targets. My Nin/Nin Stalker had none of the same quibbles whatsoever. If you have a more ST focused set of attacks, up the level but not the number of the mobs you are facing. If you lean more towards AOE, it helps to up the number of mobs you are facing without increasing their level. My MA Scrapper and Nin Stalker don't level any slower than my Blasters do, as I adjust the difficulty setting accordingly. |
Originally Posted by rsclark
It's not so "much good on stalkers" as it is "only a reasonable choice on stalkers and not on anyone else". Stalkers and EM both play to the same nearly useless strength. EM is good on a stalker compared to how well it works on any other AT, but that still doesn't make it good in an overall sense.
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Stalkers do bring something to the table, whether you see it or not. If you really wanted to continue your reasoning, I would say melee ATs are entirely unnecessary in CoX. Everyone else can affect and drop mobs at range, and faster than melee ATs can do with their pitifully small cones: so why bring them?
Yes, there's that Shield Charge, but we should all know that is bugged currently to do more damage than it should. Even so, it's not really any more than a bunch of ranged ATs with a bunch of AOEs can do every mobs as well.
In short, back to my previous point. All ATs bring a different approach to the game, and can bring something solo and on a team. No need to be snobbist against any ATs in this game whatsoever.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
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True, there is a big difference between focusing on something and only being able to do something, and there's also a huge disparity between 0 and 1.|
Originally Posted by rsclark
There is a difference between focusing on something and ONLY being able to do something. Stalker is the only AT where you can make your powerset choices and then know you will have zero AoE until 41 and only then if you pick one specific PPP for a AoE that does virtually non-existant damage.
If you're steamrolling, you really only need one AoE and for it to be up usually for every group. Anything you do beyond that is gravy. There's is a huge disparity between zero and 1. And people do know that Energy Melee is the worst melee set. |
So you're ignoring all but 3 primaries (because only MA, DM, and EM have "0 AoEs until 41") to discount an entire AT, and while most of the primaries gave up a single PBAoE, that doesn't mean that they have none, and one primary (Electric Melee) gives up zero AoE damage for Stalkers.
Maybe if you'd do a little looking into things you'd be able to come up with an argument, but everything you posted in here to back up your argument works much better against it because you couldn't be bothered to do more then regurgitate ignorant drivel into a post.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Stalker EM has lower stun chances than other ATs get. Why? No idea, maybe an old PvP holdover.|
Originally Posted by Zamuel
Correct me on this, but isn't Energy Melee actually considered good for Stalkers due to the burst damage and higher stun chances?
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In reference to the larger thread topic, there's a reason all my Stalkers these days are either Electric Melee or Spines. I gotta have my AoE. Unfortunately that means I don't get to roll many new Stalkers since I don't like repeating power sets very often. Nonetheless, so many people are talking about Stalkers as if they don't have access to those two powersets, as if all Stalkers are weak in AoE. Most are, but if you don't like a single-target focus, that doesn't mean Stalkers are off limits, it just means you have fewer powerset choices with that AT than most other ATs.
I keep hoping the devs will reverse their old decision to strip AoEs from Stalkers any time they get a powerset proliferated. We managed to get the best version of Electric Melee, but only after complaining about the original version they tried to give us (IIRC it was Lightning Clap instead of Thunder Strike).
When Broadsword was proliferated I thought that was a perfect opportunity to give Stalkers another good AoE set. Since it's so similar to Katana, they could have kept Whirling Sword to set it apart some. Instead they did the usual, and pulled Whirling Sword to make room for Placate. The message seems to be clear. Stalkers only get AoE powers if there is no other choice.
One thing they definitely need to do for Stalkers is to figure out a way to make the fear from their Assassin's Strike not be dependant on the target *surviving* (I hear that the fear spread is actually a pseudo-pet, which makes things tricky in that department?) the Strike...
Actually the fear effect and debuff comes from a temp power that is automatically given to and used by the target.
Which has the nifty side effect of reapplying should an enemy rez.
I suspect it was done this way to prevent it from effecting PvP.
I also think PvP is the reason Stalker Build Up is only an 80% boost rather than the 100% Scrappers and Tankers get.
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Amen to that. It's all about how the player utilizes their toon's abilities.
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Originally Posted by Capa_Devans
This. My own most recent idiot team mate experience was being told that my stalker isn't really helpful on a Master of Barracuda SF attempt.
 *Other members of the team explained what the Stalker AT can do on that TF before I typed a longer version of lrn2plyno0b.My main is a stalker. I can one shot stuff way above anyone else, I stand and fight like a scrapper. I've got the two Mo badges I've attempted so far so she isn't squishy. My AoE isn't half bad because she's DB/WP. (I love the combos on stalker DB.) Oh and my stealth laughs hysterically at other ATs; like Widows. The problem is NOT the stalkers (usually). It's people who don't know how to play WITH stalkers. Being in front of the brute is not a stalker being bad, it's them getting into position for build up/assassin strike. If they time the strike so the brute has the aggro this is NOT a problem. Don't use a Chief Mentalist/sapper/illusionist/ring mistress as an anchor because I guarantee he's going to be die first. It doesn't matter if you have soft capped/aoe heavy/hp capped/purpled out <insert at here> if your team doesn't understand your capabilities. That is the 'problem' with stalkers; teams don't team enough with them to see them well-played. Another shout out for the 'I'm not you school' too. I've got pretty much all ATs covered when I want to play a scrapper or a corr or a controller, I will. When I'm on my stalker, I want to play her. If you don't like to play stalkers or don't know how to play them, well that's fine. But don't tell me the AT I'm playing is useless because you don't like them. I pay my money and I make my choice. You don't have to agree with it, but you should respect it. |
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I think all the negative drawbacks to the scaling AS was just due to castle being way to conservative with the change. This is something we could still get it would just have to have no negative effects at all in terms of fighting lower rank critters. I was hoping alot of the issues get addressed before going rogue but there doesnt seem to be alot of time left now. I think right now the best solution for such a short period of time would be to increase the range of the stalker team buff to equal what the old sidekick range would be so that stalkers would benefit the team no matter what team was made.
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Originally Posted by Siolfir
The scaling AS based on enemy rank didn't work well due to not all ranks being consistent, so it was arranged to work based on maxhp for a while, with varying parts being enhanceable vs unenhanceable in a few tests (I think 4% fully enhanceable was the best overall percentage given).
This was problematic due to several reasons, not the least of which was Stalkers killing GMs solo with AS/Placate because a damage-capped Stalker could take away 20% of anything's hp in one hit before resistance was accounted for. It also made AS worse against anything smaller than an AV - although only marginally so against bosses - so for 99% of the game it was a nerf despite making them the go-to AT for GM soloing, being able to take out nearly anything in less than a minute. |
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
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Its scrappers and blasters who get the 100% build up. And think the reason is devs hate villains on that one. Notice how no villain AT comes close to that on self buffing in terms of damage eventhough stalkers should actually get a higher build up than that. If anything it should be like 125% and be shared with blasters. Prior to VEATs the no other AT did as well on teaming buffing like defenders. I think the devs are going to have to re-evaluate a few things after GR comes out.
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Originally Posted by DMystic
Actually the fear effect and debuff comes from a temp power that is automatically given to and used by the target.
Which has the nifty side effect of reapplying should an enemy rez. I suspect it was done this way to prevent it from effecting PvP. I also think PvP is the reason Stalker Build Up is only an 80% boost rather than the 100% Scrappers and Tankers get. |
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
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This one would be nice. As much as people talk about how stalkers are good at taking out problem mobs like sappers, against a lot of those, my choices are 'drop the single problem mob, or debuff everybody instead.' There are very few situations where the latter isn't a better choice, so I usually end up burying something pointy in the back of a boss to get the Assassination fear and ToHit debuff.
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Originally Posted by JD_Gumby
One thing they definitely need to do for Stalkers is to figure out a way to make the fear from their Assassin's Strike not be dependant on the target *surviving* (I hear that the fear spread is actually a pseudo-pet, which makes things tricky in that department?) the Strike...
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Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
It's unfortunate because elec melee really demonstrates that aoe+stalker doesn't have to be a bad thing and should never have been avoided like it was during their design.
The also aren't strong enough single target specialists to emerge from the shadow of other single target specialized brutes and scrappers.
Maybe if they were increased again up to a 1.2-1.3 base modifier their weaknesses would be compensated adequately, but I also doubt that will happen.
There is nothing wrong with stalkers, there just isn't enough right about them.