What Changes are needed to make Stalkers an acceptable addition to a Team?
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-07-03 19:14 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
I agree with you Alpha and Zamuel. If i played my stalker badly I would get booted w/o hesitation. I've been on teams with countless bad brutes, masterminds and Corruptors but I can't count on one hand how many times a team I've been on died b/c of a bad stalker.
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Originally Posted by Alpha_Zulu
While I might agree with you, there are some retarded corrs,controller,defender players.
So what would you rather have a stalker that can stay in hide and not die a lot, but dies once in a while. Or a bad kin corr that doesn't buff anyone or themselves and just wants to blast and dies infinity billion times? |
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Originally Posted by Zamuel
...and a bad MM or Brute gets everyone else killed while they can get away with not knowing what they're doing and surviving. Which is probably another thing concerning AT popularity--Dominators and Stalkers generally have to pay for sucking (though I'll admit that some stalkers can literally hide away from the action). Brutes and MMs have a huge margin of error for the player not actually being good.
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You're missing the point.
Forming a PUG, you basically have to assume player skill is equal when you've never grouped with the other players before.
In that situation, Stalkers end up last on the list of desirable ATs.
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Except for the 7.5% unresistable to-hit debuff from assassination.|
Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
Choice between a Stalker and a Corr? A corr brings tons of damage, Buffs or Debuffs things a Stalker does not do. |
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Stalker and Dom? Perma-Dom? Dam and control. |
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Stalker and Brute? Brute wins. |
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Stalker over MM? Buffs and damage. Often at Corr level damage and the same buffs. |
The problem Stalkers have getting on teams is mostly because of player ignorance which unfortunately can't be fixed in a patch.
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Thus, I tend to invite MMs and Brutes last. There's some awesome MM and Brute players out there but as said I expect the bad ones to get me killed.
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Forming a PUG, you basically have to assume player skill is equal when you've never grouped with the other players before.
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
You're missing the point.
Forming a PUG, you basically have to assume player skill is equal when you've never grouped with the other players before. In that situation, Stalkers end up last on the list of desirable ATs. |
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Originally Posted by Zamuel
Thus, I tend to invite MMs and Brutes last. There's some awesome MM and Brute players out there but as said I expect the bad ones to get me killed.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Are you suggesting that the Assassination -ToHit and Fear effects are comparable to a Corruptor's entire suite of buffs/debuffs or a Dominator's entire primary?
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Originally Posted by DMystic
Except for the 7.5% unresistable to-hit debuff from assassination.
A mag 5 fear is pretty solid control if you ask me |
Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
Considering the 7.5% is completely unresistable whereas the corr's are resisted it's a definite add to the team. No it's not comparable to the buffs but it is something that a Stalker can add. Is it as good as the cors whole set, cerrtainly not but it's a decent sized debuff because of the unresisted nature.
As for the fear it takes a dom multiple applications outside of dom to disable a boss or an EB the fear does this wit hone application. Is it as good as the DoMs entire set? no but it is good control.
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You're comparing a 7.5% to hit debuff and a single mag 5 fear after AS to the entire suite of debuffs a corr or the suite of controls a Dom can bring to the table on top of damage?|
Originally Posted by DMystic
Except for the 7.5% unresistable to-hit debuff from assassination.
A mag 5 fear is pretty solid control if you ask me |
That's just silly.
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Originally Posted by DMystic
until a longbow Nullifier or Malta Sapper show up, oh wait the stalker killed them before they could harm the team.
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Originally Posted by Siolfir
I'll take anyone and everyone ahead of a MM that I don't know. It's not that they can't be really good on teams, but the number of PuG MMs that I've encountered that I'd want to team with again is rather small.
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But in general I think they do provide a alot of safety through pets, buffs/debuffs for PUG teams that are sub level 50 and many groups take MMs without issue.
I can frequently stand and broadcast LFT on my stalker for like 45+ minutes without getting a response. (I did it to test a few times)
Stalkers really shine in a team setting as they are able to lock down pesky single targets. Understandable if a team is blasting away with AoEs that they wouldn't be appreciated so much. :P
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In the grand scheme of debuffs, -7.5% tohit is not that great. You mention it being irresistible, but that isn't as big of a benefit as you think. If you are in a situation where, say, a /dark corr is having their -tohit severly affected by resists, then other debuffs such as -regen are going to be more important (and a /dark corr can get upwards of -30% tohit without resist factors, let alone everything else they bring). And that's just ONE secondary.|
Originally Posted by DMystic
Considering the 7.5% is completely unresistable whereas the corr's are resisted it's a definite add to the team. No it's not comparable to the buffs but it is something that a Stalker can add. Is it as good as the cors whole set, cerrtainly not but it's a decent sized debuff because of the unresisted nature.
As for the fear it takes a dom multiple applications outside of dom to disable a boss or an EB the fear does this wit hone application. Is it as good as the DoMs entire set? no but it is good control. |
As for the fear, it is one of the better SOFT controls. Mobs can still retaliate every so often, move around, run off, etc. The "multiple applications outside of dom" to hold a boss is...2. And that is HARD control.
Stalkers got the debuffs for a couple of reasons A) To help in soloing and B) To survive the opening AS before the rest of the team engages. They, at best, supplement others on the team otherwise. Stalkers are designed to bring the pain more than anything. Thus, what they bring to a team (or the team brings to them) is a much higher %crit chance.
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But can that corruptor apply those debuffs with a powerful Lt-one-shotter power? Or do they have to set aside time (and damage) to do so?|
Originally Posted by Osmiridium
In the grand scheme of debuffs, -7.5% tohit is not that great. You mention it being irresistible, but that isn't as big of a benefit as you think. If you are in a situation where, say, a /dark corr is having their -tohit severly affected by resists, then other debuffs such as -regen are going to be more important (and a /dark corr can get upwards of -30% tohit without resist factors, let alone everything else they bring). And that's just ONE secondary.
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Really, your argument is off base. That the debuff is comparable to Corruptors is irrelevant (if you really want to argue against the utility of Demoralize, bring up its short 8sec duration...). It won't matter because the point of the effect at all is to *ADD* to the team! You *ADD* -ToHit to all the debuffs the Corruptors or MMs throw out. You *ADD* to the alpha-stunter controls that other Stalkers or Dominators toss out. That people can't realize this and still don't consider the contributions a Stalker can provide (the above + burst damage and DPS when team is assembled) vs a Scrapper or Brute (which basically are just DPS and some tanking) is amazing and sad.
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| As for the fear, it is one of the better SOFT controls. Mobs can still retaliate every so often, move around, run off, etc. The "multiple applications outside of dom" to hold a boss is...2. And that is HARD control. |
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| Stalkers got the debuffs for a couple of reasons A) To help in soloing and B) To survive the opening AS before the rest of the team engages. They, at best, supplement others on the team otherwise. Stalkers are designed to bring the pain more than anything. Thus, what they bring to a team (or the team brings to them) is a much higher %crit chance. |
Stalkers got a boost in HP to make them more survivable solo. Stalkers got demoralize to give greater utility for teams. Stalkers got more damage and scaling crits for balance.
Hmm. So, has anyone done all-Stalker teams before? Someone (not me!) should organize a Stalker Stabfest one of these days. After all, the Fire/Rads have Mondays, and Tankers (sometimes?) have Tuesday, so... 
The Repeat Offenders had a project called the Wolf Pack that did just that running for awhile. All the Stalkers would queue up next to the bosses, AS at the same time, and wreck havoc.
It's champions have been busy elsewhere of late though.
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A while back some people on my server did an all-Stalker ITF. Pity I was rather new then so I didn't join them: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...hlight=stalker
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Originally Posted by JD_Gumby
Hmm. So, has anyone done all-Stalker teams before?
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I really don't understand this thread to much. Stalkers deal more damage then scrappers, and conversely, have less HP. It's pretty simple. A 33% crit rate on a full team is *insane*.
My Elec/Regen stalk does absolutely amazing in teams. Sure, I have plenty of AoE, but it's not like all of the other sets have no AoE. Many of the Stalkers just don't take them, and focus on single target damage, which is stupid.
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You should reread my post again before flying off the handle. I already said the debuffs attached to AS supplement the rest of the team outside of the soloing boost and surviving the first strike. Also, no where did I say stalkers could NOT solo, I said it helps. Unless of course you feel the demoralize doesn't "help", but I figure you are reading what you want to.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
But can that corruptor apply those debuffs with a powerful Lt-one-shotter power? Or do they have to set aside time (and damage) to do so?
Really, your argument is off base. That the debuff is comparable to Corruptors is irrelevant (if you really want to argue against the utility of Demoralize, bring up its short 8sec duration...). It won't matter because the point of the effect at all is to *ADD* to the team! You *ADD* -ToHit to all the debuffs the Corruptors or MMs throw out. You *ADD* to the alpha-stunter controls that other Stalkers or Dominators toss out. That people can't realize this and still don't consider the contributions a Stalker can provide (the above + burst damage and DPS when team is assembled) vs a Scrapper or Brute (which basically are just DPS and some tanking) is amazing and sad. No, the fear, when it lands (only a 25% chance I believe...why not focus your argument there? <_<) *will* cause the mob to cower in fear and *not* attack. Only if you attack it, will it have a chance to attack back. Your proof is obvious. Go AS something from hide. If you see a mob instantly cower, it has attacks recharged to use...but it can't use them. You don't know what you're talking about. Stalkers had no issue soloing before Demoralize and surviving the opening AS is only an issue if you're taking alpha-strikes on larger teams. But even there, if buffs are around, a Stalker didn't have a problem keeping himself standing (and if there is no buffs, then there should be control, a meatier melee or other stalkers around to thin the herd). Stalkers got a boost in HP to make them more survivable solo. Stalkers got demoralize to give greater utility for teams. Stalkers got more damage and scaling crits for balance. |
Yes, I didn't include the fact that you have to attack a feared target for them to retaliate. But, it WILL retaliate immediately the FIRST time it is attacked after the fear is applied. So unless you just stand there looking at the mobs until it wears off, expect a counter attack.
Giving up damage is expected when the debuffs are vastly superior. /Dark was the easy example since it has one power that is more than twice as effective as demoralize in the -tohit dept(even more when slotted for it, no option to slot for the demoralize effect), longer lasting fear, is much better than a 25% chance to land (I know based on the accuracy, I figure I better say that this time so you don't came back and nitpick that either), and affects a much larger area. That power also takes just over 2 seconds to cast, from range no less. Yes, if I am looking for debuffs, I'll give up some damage for that.
Stalkers bring damage. The minor utility is a "useful" by-product. If I was leading a team and a stalker advertised themselves as a debuffer, they aren't coming along.
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Well, that's been a lot of the discussion, that Stalkers don't always do more damage than Scrappers, and when they do, it's not enough to make up for the reduced survivability for many people. And while most of the Stalker primaries have some AoE, they pretty much universally have less of it than a Scrapper would bring to the table with the same sets, and in some cases (MA/ and EM/) have none.
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Originally Posted by Candlestick
I really don't understand this thread to much. Stalkers deal more damage then scrappers, and conversely, have less HP. It's pretty simple.
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Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
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That 33% is only if everyone is standing on top of you. If you have actual ranged characters in the group - you know, like half of the ATs - then that number is much smaller. And they don't do more damage than scrappers. They do slightly more damage in the one situation in which the specialize and vastly less damage in all other situations.|
Originally Posted by Candlestick
I really don't understand this thread to much. Stalkers deal more damage then scrappers, and conversely, have less HP. It's pretty simple. A 33% crit rate on a full team is *insane*.
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| My Elec/Regen stalk does absolutely amazing in teams. Sure, I have plenty of AoE, but it's not like all of the other sets have no AoE. Many of the Stalkers just don't take them, and focus on single target damage, which is stupid. |
If you're electric or spines (and DB to a lesser degree), then we're not really talking about you. It's not that the stalker concept sucks, it's that having no significant AoE capacity sucks when all you get in return is a slight benefit in single target damage. And if you want to make them more acceptable in groups without actually giving them more AoE, then make them "OH HOLY CRAP!!!" better than scrappers and brutes at single target damage instead of "I guess I notice a difference, but I'd need to run herostats to be sure" different, since that's the scale of the difference in their AoE potential - put the same weight on both sides of that balance scale and make them totally dominate in their one niche since that's all they get.
Let me relate a personal story to you.
Running in a team doing +3 x 8 with my Electric/Ninja stalker.
I would isolate one of the bosses hit him and kill him turn around and the team had killed everything else and had the other boss in the spawn nearly dead.
My contribution? 1 boss out of what 16-17 foes in the group. I watched after that and let the team know I was going to test something.
The next spawn I just watched - never attacked. It took maybe 5-10 seconds longer for them to defeat the spawn. It was demoralizing. I was contributing almost nothing - to add to it I then switched to my Fire/Dark corr and the team now was a steamroller and it cut the time in half from what we had been doing with my stalker. I then deleted my level 39 stalker.
What stalkers need is damage. AoE damage.
Without that they fill no purpose almost any other AT can't do better.
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Exactly, which is why I recommend playing a stalker to lvl 20, then roll a widow or bane. Great dps, hide, placate, and better survivability. The team buffs are also very nice, and much more useful to the team than assassin's strike.
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Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
Let me relate a personal story to you.
It was demoralizing. I was contributing almost nothing - to add to it I then switched to my Fire/Dark corr and the team now was a steamroller and it cut the time in half from what we had been doing with my stalker. I then deleted my level 39 stalker. |
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So, you killed one enemy out of 16. That's better than some tanks and a lot of defenders will do. It's also about the same thing a single target focused scrapper would do. Watch and see how many enemies a Martial Arts scrapper defeats in a fight before level 26, or how many an /Energy tank ever kills in a fight. |
Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
Let me relate a personal story to you.
Running in a team doing +3 x 8 with my Electric/Ninja stalker. I would isolate one of the bosses hit him and kill him turn around and the team had killed everything else and had the other boss in the spawn nearly dead. My contribution? 1 boss out of what 16-17 foes in the group. I watched after that and let the team know I was going to test something. The next spawn I just watched - never attacked. It took maybe 5-10 seconds longer for them to defeat the spawn. It was demoralizing. I was contributing almost nothing - to add to it I then switched to my Fire/Dark corr and the team now was a steamroller and it cut the time in half from what we had been doing with my stalker. I then deleted my level 39 stalker. |
I really don't get the hate for the single-target focus of stalkers. It's like everyone seems to think if you don't have stupid amounts of AoE you're worthless.
When I play my stalker on teams, I basically hit the thing that's in front of me unless there's a reason to aim for a specific target. I enjoy it, and I've never had anyone complain because I wasn't contributing enough.
You're not asking for an improvement to stalkers, you're asking to change the very nature of the AT. If the sets that lost their AoE were to get it back, you would lose Assassin's Strike and Placate. I'd be willing to bet money on it. If you lost AS and Placate, you would be nothing more than a really squishy scrapper....and even less useful. Sure, you have AoE, but with Going Rogue around the corner there would be even less point to roll a stalker, when a scrapper could serve the same purpose.
Really, what it comes down to is: If you think stalkers, as they are, are weak and useless, don't play them.
You are not required to like every AT in the game, that's part of why there are so many choices of what you can play. Me, I can't stand playing masterminds, and there are tons of people that love them. But you don't see me asking for the thing that makes a mastermind a mastermind to be changed so I might like it more.
Stalkers have a role on TFs that very few others can perform....they are the perfect ghoster, and they can do it from level 1. The only other things as good at it are VEATS and Illusion controllers, and they have to wait until level 20 and level 8 respectively.
And I STILL say that the problem is with the people who insist that anything less than total annihilation of a spawn in 3 seconds is unacceptable, rather than with the AT. The game has gone from "Cool, I'm a superhero!" to "Speed speed speed now now now, I need to get all the shinies as fast as I can!" Which saddens me a little bit. A video game has become an excercise in being as efficient as humanly possible.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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It happens to almost every game, though. Once the bulk of the playerbase has access to a clear understanding of how the game works, a focus on efficiency will naturally develop. Trying to hide the data, as EverQuest and the original CoH devs tried, doesn't help, it just forces a reliance on outside tools. Ultimately, once players know their goals and know how the game works, they will eventually reach a concensus on how to play to reach those goals efficiently, and everything else will be categorized as "bad play." It's sad, yes, but pretty much inevitable.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
A video game has become an excercise in being as efficient as humanly possible.
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TEH WERDZ ON SKREEN HURTZ MI BRANE!
I see stalkers needing 1 minor tweak to make them more worth it on teams. While the buff they got awhile back was good it had one thing that just doesnt make sense. The team crit buff is based on the stalkers proximity to his her teammates. The main benefit happens if you are in a melee heavy team. If you have a melee heavy team why invite a stalker to begin with, this sort of makes the buff pointless on a range heavy team. What needs to happen is make the team crit buff have a range of what the old sidekick range used to be. So on a full team a stalker is always at maximum benefit of the buff so long as they dont try to run away from the group, which is the other problem stalkers have. So by keeping them with the group they do more damage and do more for the team. If this small tweak cant work then we can always just add back in the scaling damage AS thingie we had for AVs. Boy was that fun.
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Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
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