Tank + Healer + 6 DPS
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-07-02 16:03 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
If someone's trying to play baseball and using their face as the bat, would you tell them there's a better way, or just let them "enjoy their playstyle?" Because, frankly, that's what the "need a healer" folks are doing. Making things far more painful for themselves than it has to be, and leaving a mess for others to clean up.
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"If someone's trying to coach a Little League team and insisting that the kids use thier face as the bat....." in the case of Team Leaders who insist on such play.
(Frankly, I'd ask if the coach is also the town's main dentist.)
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(Thank you. I will treasure this analogy forever.)|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Because, of course, leaving them totally ignorant as to what a Defender really can do for a team that doesn't result in "green numbers" is the best solution evar.
If someone's trying to play baseball and using their face as the bat, would you tell them there's a better way, or just let them "enjoy their playstyle?" Because, frankly, that's what the "need a healer" folks are doing. Making things far more painful for themselves than it has to be, and leaving a mess for others to clean up. |
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Originally Posted by Defenestrator
Of course, the blasters do a BIT more damage.
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I will say that the Trinity is a decent fallback. If you pug a lot, you run into a lot of people who have all kinds of ideas on how to play their toons. Those trollers? Might not have or use their secondaries. That fruit salad may not have slotted his heal so it never recharges in time so he dies faster than a blaster (had this happen this week). That Mastermind may be working on a Catwoman concept, so he's got the whips but no demons!
If you're dealing with strangers, going with the simple formula of Tank = Wall between team and debt, and Fender as Tank Tender, it requires less faith in the skills of others.
My pet peeve is people who refuse to acknowledge it when I tell them my character has unlimited power. If I rp attack them they are of course disintegrated beyond the ability of any hospital or magic to restore. Yet despite this they refuse to delete their characters and still keep playing them as if nothing happened. ~Mandu, 07-16-2010
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You're not familiar with the Green Machine, are you? It's a Repeat Offenders group consisting only of Empathy defenders. Played right, an all-Emp team is terrifyingly overpowered.
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Originally Posted by Noxilicious
In fact, I think you'd only "need" a tank if you only have Empathy defenders.
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I just played like..3 PuGs and a posi TF today...and I don't even think I saw a healer today... and we never needed one..and having a "tank" was covered only because I was being a lobster today...only because I felt like teleporting into the center of a mob and foot stomping. Itssofun.
hell..I don't even pay attention to archtypes most of the time. We're all just heroes.
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I've never seen that redside. On the team I usually play with redside, the Brute never had a chance to "Tank" unless the team got split up and there was a couple of ambushes.
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Originally Posted by Teeth
You don't see this redside? I see this redside, and I find it even more annoying there. I've never invited a "pure healer" Corr or "pure tank" Brute, but I've been on teams with a few, and I've had team leaders demanding one or the other.
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There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"
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Oh, don't get me wrong...a tank is truly awesome, and when you combine that tank with bubbles and rad debuffs, he SHOULD never be defeated.|
Originally Posted by Ashtoreth_NA
If you're dealing with strangers, going with the simple formula of Tank = Wall between team and debt, and Fender as Tank Tender, it requires less faith in the skills of others. |
My group was a little tentative at first, but once everyone realized nobody was taking much damage, the TF was a piece of cake. (There were a couple of mishaps along the way, but it happens.)
Arc# 92382 -- "The S.P.I.D.E.R. and the Tyrant" -- Ninjas! Robots! Praetorians! It's totally epic! Play it now!
Arc # 316340 -- "Husk" -- Azuria loses something, a young woman harbors a dark secret, and the fate of the world is in your hands.
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Agreed, agreed, and...oh, yes, agreed !|
Originally Posted by Peacemoon
Recently I have noticed a rise in the "We need a tank!" or "We need a healer" mentality, even from people I would consider as veterens with 30+ months under their belt, or otherwise intelligent players who have the awareness to join TF related chat channels.
I'm just wondering, will we ever shake this? Is the 'Wow Culture' just too hard to fight against? I was doing a Synapse TF yesterday with 3 controllers (Fire+Thermal, Illusion+Rad, Grav+Kin) and 2 defenders (FF+AR, Rad+Sonic), and yet despite all these buffs, debuffs and the sheer amount of control at our disposal, plus the fact they were all high level's exemplared down, there was a sense of sheer panic from some members that I had not included a tank in the roster. The other day I was doing a Posi TF and the leader (a tank), commented how Defenders are only good for healing. Thankfully some of the team quickly corrected him, but as a Force Field defender, it gets me down. This is not the first time I have heard such talk, with comments like "not enough defenders have heals these days" being something that sticks. Today, I ran a sister psyche TF. We had a tank, several blasters and a peacebringer. We also had 2 defenders, both of us being Force Fields. With 1 spot remaining what does the leader ask for? A healer. We managed to get him to invite a scrapper instead after a quick talk from some of the team, but it feels like an uphill struggle. Although I did enjoy the fact with 2 FF's in the team, everyone was pretty much a tank. Finally, in the last 3 days I have seen so many heros with the word "Healer" in their name. (All empaths). I've had Empaths proudly flashing a healer inscribed neon sign whilst looking for a team, only to rock the aura and do little else. With every new wave of players or returning players, it seems we have to refight the same war. You. Don't. Need. A. Healer! You don't need a tank either if controllers know what they are doing. I know this seems like a general consensus on the forums, but believe me ingame is a different matter. Oh well, rant over. :-) |
When people know what they do, there is no required specific AT.
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Except your analogy, while humorous, is very erroneous.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Because, of course, leaving them totally ignorant as to what a Defender really can do for a team that doesn't result in "green numbers" is the best solution evar.
If someone's trying to play baseball and using their face as the bat, would you tell them there's a better way, or just let them "enjoy their playstyle?" Because, frankly, that's what the "need a healer" folks are doing. Making things far more painful for themselves than it has to be, and leaving a mess for others to clean up. |
If you use your face as a bat, you cause injuries to yourself, and you don't succeed in your objective (which is presumably to win the baseball game)
If you recruit a tank, a healer and 6 DPS, you don't hurt yourself, and on the contrary you have a very solid team to face almost any challenge.
A more accurate analogy would be if someone insists on just bunting the ball. Bunting can be a very effective and valid strategy in certain cases, but it's not the most desirable way to hit a ball.
Now I won't disagree with you saying that there are also more valid ways to build a team, but I just don't see what all the noise and what all the hate against "The Holy Trinity" is about. It's obviously an effective playstyle that has become legendary for a reason, and apparently this is the only game where it's frowned upon by the forum community (a very vocal minority).
You don't like how someone else builds a team? don't join them, assemble your own. When you try to "educate" other players, no matter how geniunely good your intentions are, you'll always come off as a pedantic know-it-all who doesn't tolerate other people's playstyle (and sadly that seems to be the norm on the forums)
My suggestion? just let them bunt all they want, less headaches for you
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Going back to the original post; I don't think there has actually been a 'rise' in this type of behavior. We've had people making this observation for YEARS. This has always been going on. You just happened to witness it X times in one week so it stuck in your mind.|
Originally Posted by Peacemoon
Recently I have noticed a rise in the "We need a tank!" or "We need a healer" mentality, even from people I would consider as veterens with 30+ months under their belt, or otherwise intelligent players who have the awareness to join TF related chat channels.
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It's like all those threads we see where people have 'proof' that the randomness of drops is broken. It's all about perception. You got lucky and went a month without running into morons. Then you drew the short straw and got back-to-back muttonheads.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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I can agree with this sentiment. It's very similar to the casual-hardcore thing. Some people are more focused on the subtleties that produce superior results while others fixate on the obvious (green numbers = good!) even though it's less....well, efficient. I've quit teams summarily when the leader insists on waiting to "get a healer". It's a waste of time IMO. This game isn't that serious. It's not like radio teams are taking on mobs that can half round a tank (one shot, one kill) as happens regularly in other games.|
Originally Posted by Silverado
Oooooor you can just respect other people's playstyle, even if, god forbid, they are different than yours.
People have the right to engage in whatever playstyle they will, so let them be and worry more about enjoying your own playstyle and less about other people's playstyle. |
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Originally Posted by Silverado
Except your analogy, while humorous, is very erroneous.
If you use your face as a bat, you cause injuries to yourself, and you don't succeed in your objective (which is presumably to win the baseball game) |
Personally, I agree with your last sentence. I'm content to let those folks continue to use their faces to chase 100mph fastballs. Natural selection and all that.
@Remianen / @Remianen Too
Sig by RPVisions
[QUOTE=Silverado;3002863When you try to "educate" other players, no matter how geniunely good your intentions are, you'll always come off as a pedantic know-it-all who doesn't tolerate other people's playstyle (and sadly that seems to be the norm on the forums)[/QUOTE] That really depends on your method. If the leader says "We need a healer" and you say something along the lines of "Any support class would do, there is no need to limit ourselves." The only people who will see you as an intolerable know it alls are the ones who have already decided only their way is acceptable.
In that case yes drop the team the leader is an insufferable buffoon. But anyone with a tiny bit of intelligence will take no offence. There is nothing wrong in helping those who are open to suggestion in enjoying the game more.
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I play villain side 95% of the time and I'll back up Leo's experience; "need healer" is something I don't see redside. Nor is "need tank". |
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Nope, and I play villain side probably 75% of the time. Never see anyone bother with 'seeking' a pure healer or tank. If they were, they didn't go broadcasting it or even comment about it to the team.
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Redside ATs are far more self-sufficient than blueside ATs, and after a few levels of play, the player-base seems to get this pretty well figured out.
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Except the randomness of drops WAS actually broken and some of us muttonheads worked to get the Dev Team to take a closer look at the problem. And then when the closer look yielded no results we pressured them to keep it up until the bug was found. Considering that the bug had been present for a VERY long time, it wasn't an easy one to find.
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Originally Posted by Ironblade
It's like all those threads we see where people have 'proof' that the randomness of drops is broken. It's all about perception. You got lucky and went a month without running into morons. Then you drew the short straw and got back-to-back muttonheads.
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Arc# 92382 -- "The S.P.I.D.E.R. and the Tyrant" -- Ninjas! Robots! Praetorians! It's totally epic! Play it now!
Arc # 316340 -- "Husk" -- Azuria loses something, a young woman harbors a dark secret, and the fate of the world is in your hands.
I don't know if someone else has posted this, but I'm going to say it's the "easier" way to do things, not so much you got to have them. Like you wouldn't go on a Rock Climbing trip without rope.... that type of thing. But if you don't have it, you just taking one more risk that can be avoided.
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Indeed. Redside it's always "need kin" |
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
I play villain side 95% of the time and I'll back up Leo's experience; "need healer" is something I don't see redside. Nor is "need tank".
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But the other 99.9% of the time, it's really not broken.|
Originally Posted by Defenestrator
Except the randomness of drops WAS actually broken and some of us muttonheads worked to get the Dev Team to take a closer look at the problem.
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I stand by the muttonheads comment.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
When I see stuff like "we need a healer" i know its a team to avoid.
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Originally Posted by WarronPeace
I had this happen the other day. I'm running around on my 18 (now 20) El/El tanker and I see a broadcast for Posi 1 looking for a Tank and a Healer. Despite misgivings over the "need a healer" mentality, I decided to join up, since I had nothing better to do, lol. Come to find out there's a Dark defender, a Rad controller, and the leader himself was a /TA controller. He spends about 10 minutes looking for a healer, broadcasting and probably spamming any defenders in /search asking if they were empaths. I was fine with this, since I needed to get new enhancers anyway. Once done, I was getting bored and I sent him a tell saying that with the shear amount of debuffs available, plus the fact that we had 2 blasters and one or two scrappers on the team, we'd be fine if we didn't have a dedicated healer. I also mentioned that the /rad troller would be able to toss out emergency heals here and there, as well. So he grabs a scrapper, and we roll. (Unfortunately, just before we roll, the Dark DCed and we never heard from him. We went anyway.)
We wipe in the first spawn. But that was due to poor planning and not everyone was ready. So we hosp, get back in, and proceed to steamroll through the TF. Only time we had another wipe was in the last mission when we went to go into the building, only to get hit with a massively huge ambush full of spectral demons and all their tohit debuffing annoyingness. We hosp/base, grabbing insps from where ever we can, and get back in. Was a very fun TF, and I think I managed to show another of the "need heals" types that heals aren't always necessary, and that 99% of the time, debuffs + high DPS is all you need. Loved it. |
H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
Top 4: Controller, Brute, Scrapper, Corruptor
Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
CoH in WQHD
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I find those teams fun on certain builds. They're a challenge.|
Originally Posted by newchemicals
When I see stuff like "we need a healer" i know its a team to avoid.
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I do refuse to invite people who self-identify as "healer" when I'm team leader, though. I used to view it as another wacky challenge, but then I ran a Dr. Quarterfield with a level 50 Empath who did literally nothing other than spam her first three Emp powers... to the point where I needed to use Awakens when I died. X-D
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And boy, do I hope this general playstyle infects heroside after GR, rather than vice-versa.
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Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
I play villain side 95% of the time and I'll back up Leo's experience; "need healer" is something I don't see redside. Nor is "need tank".
Redside ATs are far more self-sufficient than blueside ATs, and after a few levels of play, the player-base seems to get this pretty well figured out. |
Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
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I find the rope gets in the way, and much prefer not having one thanks. |
Originally Posted by Novawulfe
Like you wouldn't go on a Rock Climbing trip without rope.... that type of thing. But if you don't have it, you just taking one more risk that can be avoided.
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I never noticed it so much in D&D primarily because the DM was (hopefully) smarter than the game AI. A cleric was helpful but wouldn't be spamming Cure Light Wounds ten times per fight like you see in MMORPGs and the fighter couldn't magically "taunt away the aggro" and keep an archer from targetting the magic-user. Also a good DM could allow a team of fighters or thiefs by upping the number of cure potions discovered or whatever.|
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
No. You will never get rid of the stigma. It's not the "WoW" approach, either. It's -far- older.
Try D&D Older. |
That said, you had Holy Trinities in Everquest in 1999 and if someone told me they were older than that in Ultima Online or MUDs, I wouldn't doubt them.
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I'm still trying to solve for "x".| Tank + Healer + 6 DPS |
--NT
They all laughed at me when I said I wanted to be a comedian.
But I showed them, and nobody's laughing at me now!
If I became a red name, I would be all "and what would you mere mortals like to entertain me with today, mu hu ha ha ha!" ~Arcanaville
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Interestingly, at least back when I played (circa Kunark through to when WoW came out) the "holy trinity" in EQ wasn't Tank/Healer/DPS. It was Warrior/Cleric/Enchanter (crowd control). Those were the classes you "needed" (as the game evolved, it became less class specific, but the crowd control role was perceived as being far more necessary than some random damagers). The remaining three slots were filled with whatever DPS characters you could find.
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Originally Posted by Jophiel
That said, you had Holy Trinities in Everquest in 1999
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True that. I knew there was a reason I made sure to say "Trinities" and not Tank/Healer/DPS
The concept is the same though. "We can't start moving until we have the correct combination of classes/archetypes!"
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