City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

Tank + Healer + 6 DPS

Adeon Hawkwood

By Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-07-02 16:03 in CoH and CoV General Discussions

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverado View Post
If you recruit any combination of competent players, even without a "healer," you don't hurt yourself, and on the contrary you have a very solid team to face almost any challenge.
Fixed. Still no need (or need to wait for) a specific AT or role.

 

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The rest of the defenders just refuse to admit Empathy is the best defender set out there. [That should stir the pot]

 

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Originally Posted by Transhade View Post
The rest of the defenders just refuse to admit Empathy is the best defender set out there. [That should stir the pot]
Actually a well played Empath is ironically enough one of the best defender/controller sets out there for keeping a team upbeat and moving at a nice speed.

By well played I mean Empaths who can heal when needed and only when needed, keep Fortitude up on 3+ targets, keep CM up on squishies when necessary, use recovery aura at the right time and at the right location, keep adrenalin boost up on whoever will benefit most and still find the time to either blast or actively control. Now those are Empaths that know how to play.

Unfortunately, the majority of healorz give us a bad name. ;-)

Bottom line is anyone who knows how to play this game knows that healing is never going to save someone from an unavoidable death like it will in other games. You have to be VERY good at predictive healing by keeping an eye on incoming attacks + monitor debuffs (like a -def debuff that signifies incoming damage is coming to player A) to even to stand a chance at keeping them alive. Squishes are just too squishy, you need to be more proactive then healing. Thankfully every set does offer proactive measures.

 

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the fastest STF i have EVER ran was with 8 defenders...it was easy cheesy...in fact that same night we were having a race with the all controller stf team and they failed...

 

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Originally Posted by Silverado View Post
Nope. Being straightforward. You can deal with "any challenge" with pretty much any competent team. No "Well, if you have THIS, you're fine." You're still staying stuck in the "Tank +Healer +...." and that's still not needed, required, or even necessarily optimal.

1-8 of anything played competently = you can deal with pretty much anything. Breaking people *out* of the "holy trinity" mindset - which I fully admit IS needed in other games, just not here - = more opportunities for more enjoyment, and an opening up of playstyles (as opposed to "sit at the door and wait while the leader finds the 'healer' they simply MUST Have.")

Why is it "effective" in other games? Honestly, it's *needed* in other games.

It's not here. Not INeffective, but not all that great a difference from pretty much any other team makeup.

 

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Am I the ONLY one that gets pissed whenever he hears about someone calling themselves or another player DPS? That's not a name, hell, it's not even a TITLE, it's a function.

Calling someone that CAN deal damage per second is like calling a doctor +HEALTH. It's just plain ******* STUPID.

At least "healer" and "tank" are titles of a person or character that describe a NOUN.

 

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Originally Posted by Westley View Post
Am I the ONLY one that gets pissed whenever he hears about someone calling themselves or another player DPS? That's not a name, hell, it's not even a TITLE, it's a function.

Calling someone that CAN deal damage per second is like calling a doctor +HEALTH. It's just plain ******* STUPID.

At least "healer" and "tank" are titles of a person or character that describe a NOUN.
I think you may be the only one.

 

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Originally Posted by Westley View Post
Am I the ONLY one that gets pissed whenever he hears about someone calling themselves or another player DPS? That's not a name, hell, it's not even a TITLE, it's a function.

Calling someone that CAN deal damage per second is like calling a doctor +HEALTH. It's just plain ******* STUPID.
Probably not the only one, but it sure as hell doesn't bother me. As long as they're not using language they'd be ashamed to use in front of their mother, they can call me whatever they like.

Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project

 

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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill View Post
Nope. Being straightforward. You can deal with "any challenge" with pretty much any competent team. No "Well, if you have THIS, you're fine." You're still staying stuck in the "Tank +Healer +...." and that's still not needed, required, or even necessarily optimal.

1-8 of anything played competently = you can deal with pretty much anything. Breaking people *out* of the "holy trinity" mindset - which I fully admit IS needed in other games, just not here - = more opportunities for more enjoyment, and an opening up of playstyles (as opposed to "sit at the door and wait while the leader finds the 'healer' they simply MUST Have.")

Why is it "effective" in other games? Honestly, it's *needed* in other games.

It's not here. Not INeffective, but not all that great a difference from pretty much any other team makeup.
Hmm.

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Originally Posted by Silverado View Post
Now I won't disagree with you saying that there are also more valid ways to build a team, but I just don't see what all the noise and what all the hate against "The Holy Trinity" is about. It's obviously an effective playstyle that has become legendary for a reason, and apparently this is the only game where it's frowned upon by the forum community (a very vocal minority).

You don't like how someone else builds a team? don't join them, assemble your own. When you try to "educate" other players, no matter how geniunely good your intentions are, you'll always come off as a pedantic know-it-all who doesn't tolerate other people's playstyle (and sadly that seems to be the norm on the forums)

My suggestion? just let them bunt all they want, less headaches for you
We can probably go on and on on an endless loop of repetition and redundancy

 

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Originally Posted by Westley View Post
Am I the ONLY one that gets pissed whenever he hears about someone calling themselves or another player DPS? That's not a name, hell, it's not even a TITLE, it's a function.

Calling someone that CAN deal damage per second is like calling a doctor +HEALTH. It's just plain ******* STUPID.

At least "healer" and "tank" are titles of a person or character that describe a NOUN.
It annoys me as well, because I know the term evolved from damage metres. Its just not a term that fits CoH I think.

 

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Originally Posted by Westley View Post
Calling someone that CAN deal damage per second is like calling a doctor +HEALTH. It's just plain ******* STUPID.
I agree that calling anything in this game "a doctor" or "+HEALTH" is "just plain ******* STUPID."

On the other hand, if you meant that calling a Blaster DPS is stupid: No, that's 1) metonymy and 2) true.

 

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Originally Posted by Smurphy View Post
Just play Bad Team Bingo.
New to CoH, but what I learned after a few years of WoW was this:

There is no such thing as a bad pug. There are two types of pugs: Good ones and funny ones.

... This may rely in part on WoW's very small penalty for dying repeatedly.

 

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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill View Post
Because, of course, leaving them totally ignorant as to what a Defender really can do for a team that doesn't result in "green numbers" is the best solution evar.

If someone's trying to play baseball and using their face as the bat, would you tell them there's a better way, or just let them "enjoy their playstyle?" Because, frankly, that's what the "need a healer" folks are doing. Making things far more painful for themselves than it has to be, and leaving a mess for others to clean up.
if more players need to take a hardball to the face to amuse me....

 

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I really like CoH since you can pretty much do anything with any team makeup (perhaps not the master of stuff, but eh).

The bad teams i've been in, it's the players who been rubbish, not the team make up.

It's fun to try do stuff with non trinity layout
All defender teams are awesome.
So was our all dual pistol ITF on test when it was in beta (5 blasters, 2 corruptors(kin+dark) and 1 defender(empath), sure we had over 200 defeats, but i think it was the second fastest i've seen romulus die, and we did it in just over 2 hours like 2:05 i think. All those stupid bosses kept oneshotting our poor squishies, why it took so long!


Bad empaths are easy to spot, they put heal aura on auto, put tank on follow and go afk, then come back every 2 mins to click the auras and go afk again. Sadly this is the majority of the so called "healers"
Good empaths are really powerful tho, i'm a bit spoiled since i play alot with Psygon who is just mad awesome at being an empath.

Great team makeups are fun, but so are some "bad" ones as well.
Only thing thats not fun are stupid players who are obnoxious and just try grief their teammates.

As long as it's good fun people to play with, i don't care what they play
It'll be a blast regardless!

 

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Game's overdue for an information cascade. Get enough people to believe de/buffs are more important than heals, and the wall comes crumbling down. Sometimes, the solution to humans blindly conforming to bad ideas, has to be humans blindly conforming to the simple opposite. The fall of the Berlin Wall, the formation and popping of the real estate bubble, American offshore oil exploration being banned, no allowed, no banned, it's the same underlying group psychology. Remember, groups think differently than individuals!

Fine in theory, but how do we get the snowball rolling? By being just as bad as the trinity types. When you advertise LFM, say something like "do not want healer, healers are crap, want buffer debuffer or blastfender." When you advertise LFT, say something like "skipped worthless heal powers, I have the buffs and debuffs and blasts that actually help." Even though it's not true. Even though you know it's wrong. Replacing entrenched disinformation with new disinformation is the name of the game. Sure, you'll scare off a good empath now and then, but shed no tears, empaths never have trouble finding teams.

I'm sure there'll be enough concept types who are hellbent on playing a healer to ensure a good mix of buffers, debuffers, offenders, and healers after the cascade.

 

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Originally Posted by Sapphic_Neko View Post
Bad empaths are easy to spot, they put heal aura on auto, put tank on follow and go afk, then come back every 2 mins to click the auras and go afk again. Sadly this is the majority of the so called "healers"
What's sadder is what could be a great set being turned into a "healer." I can kind of understand Empathy (and Pain,) but... Radiation Emission? (Yeah. Guy still sticks in my mind after a few years. RE corruptor built as a "healer." Got on the team during one of the halloween events hunting GMs - we could have used the debuffs instead of the rather weak healing aura, but at 35, he had nothing. Just the aura, rez, and AM. It was painful to see, and made the rez more useful than it had any right to be on a rad.)

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Good empaths are really powerful tho, i'm a bit spoiled since i play alot with Psygon who is just mad awesome at being an empath.
See also Green Machine. That was insane.

 

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Originally Posted by Rigel_Kent View Post
Game's overdue for an information cascade. Get enough people to believe de/buffs are more important than heals, and the wall comes crumbling down. Sometimes, the solution to humans blindly conforming to bad ideas, has to be humans blindly conforming to the simple opposite. The fall of the Berlin Wall, the formation and popping of the real estate bubble, American offshore oil exploration being banned, no allowed, no banned, it's the same underlying group psychology. Remember, groups think differently than individuals!

Fine in theory, but how do we get the snowball rolling? By being just as bad as the trinity types. When you advertise LFM, say something like "do not want healer, healers are crap, want buffer debuffer or blastfender." When you advertise LFT, say something like "skipped worthless heal powers, I have the buffs and debuffs and blasts that actually help." Even though it's not true. Even though you know it's wrong. Replacing entrenched disinformation with new disinformation is the name of the game. Sure, you'll scare off a good empath now and then, but shed no tears, empaths never have trouble finding teams.

I'm sure there'll be enough concept types who are hellbent on playing a healer to ensure a good mix of buffers, debuffers, offenders, and healers after the cascade.

Wow. I REALLY like this idea.

 

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I'm sick of all the emp hate. My emp is bad ***. He has almost perma RAs. He can fort 4 1/2 team members at once. He does massive recharge debuffs (psi secondary). Did I mention he wears pink?

You're acting like the second emps sign on their toons they're getting floods of invites to TFs and teams, and this simply isn't the case. If I wasn't in active channels I probably wouldn't team with him much because most folks DO know you don't 'need' a healer. Most opt for a rad or kin before an emp. Every single team needs buff/debuff, agro management, and damage. It doesn't matter where you get the three things as long as you have them.

 

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Originally Posted by Maxwell View Post
Every single team needs buff/debuff, agro management, and damage. It doesn't matter where you get the three things as long as you have them.

No they don't. Try an all-Blaster team sometime, it's fun. All you really "need" in this game is damage. Anything else is nice, but optional.

 

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Originally Posted by Maxwell View Post
I'm sick of all the emp hate. My emp is bad ***. He has almost perma RAs. He can fort 4 1/2 team members at once. He does massive recharge debuffs (psi secondary). Did I mention he wears pink?

You're acting like the second emps sign on their toons they're getting floods of invites to TFs and teams, and this simply isn't the case. If I wasn't in active channels I probably wouldn't team with him much because most folks DO know you don't 'need' a healer. Most opt for a rad or kin before an emp. Every single team needs buff/debuff, agro management, and damage. It doesn't matter where you get the three things as long as you have them.
You misunderstand what people are saying. Most even admit that good Empaths are really amazing. It's just that most people are also tired of others acting like Empaths are the only good defenders and every other powerset is vastly inferior and useless in comparison.

In other words, everyone would be happy to have a good Empath Defender, but most people are vary of "good healers". This may sound contradicting at first until you realise the connotations that healer (not empath) has in this game.

 

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Originally Posted by Westley View Post
No they don't. Try an all-Blaster team sometime, it's fun. All you really "need" in this game is damage. Anything else is nice, but optional.
Blasters are beautiful like that. One Blaster is OK, two or three Blasters are actually kind of behind the 8ball thanks to their larger spawns, but four Blasters or more reach the kind of critical mass where spawn sizes actually no longer matter. By the time my Fire/Fire has gone through Fireball, Fire Breath and is about to cast Rain of Fire, the spawn has also eaten Explosive Blast, Energy Torrent, Explosive Arrow, Fistful of Arrows and Ball lightning, and I can see a dude heading in to deliver Thunder Strike.

You don't NEED buffs, control and mitigation. They help a lot, but you can do without them.

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Originally Posted by Maxwell View Post
I'm sick of all the emp hate. My emp is bad ***. He has almost perma RAs. He can fort 4 1/2 team members at once. He does massive recharge debuffs (psi secondary). Did I mention he wears pink?
People aren't complaining about Empaths. They're complaining about "Healers." From the description, you aren't one - using buffs and keeping them up, taking advantage of the debuffs of the secondary, attacking in general - that's an Empathy Defender.

 

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Originally Posted by Maxwell View Post
Every single team needs buff/debuff, agro management, and damage.
While there are some situations where a team needs all three (for example a Master of TF run) for general play all you really need is Damage. Everything else just makes delivering the damage safer.

Aggro management is easier to manage without than buffs/debuffs. I find a lot of players overestimate the need for aggro management against regular enemies. Good aggro management does make the game easier, but it is not required. I've taken alphas on my Blaster simply by using a purple inspiration beforehand and eating a green afterwards. It's not as effective as true tanking but as long as the rest of the team follows me in it gets the job done. And of course the right buff/debuff sets render the need for inspirations irrelevant (on mt Traps defender I use seekers to eat the alpha and rely on my defense for the rest).

Buffs and debuffs can also be dispensed with but doing so is more painful than managing without aggro management. As others have stated the all-blaster team is a viable option it's just that it has less margin for error than other teams. The primary advantage of buffs and debuffs is that they greatly increase the margin by which the team survives so if something weird happens (such as someone going AFK suddenly because their cat spontaneously combusted) it's not going to cause a cascading failure.

 

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Originally Posted by Westley View Post
No they don't. Try an all-Blaster team sometime, it's fun. All you really "need" in this game is damage. Anything else is nice, but optional.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

All-Brute teams are also delightfully delicious.