Tank + Healer + 6 DPS
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-07-02 16:03 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Lets see you do an STF with that team makeup. And by the way - Most blasters HAVE buffs/debuffs on their build, and killing everything before it kills you stands for agro management. My statement stands true.
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Originally Posted by Westley
No they don't. Try an all-Blaster team sometime, it's fun. All you really "need" in this game is damage. Anything else is nice, but optional.
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The only time I've ever really had trouble on a team without the Holy Trinity Makeup was the time where we tried the Cavern of Transcendence Trial when everyone in our SG seemed to be leveling a Blaster, so we ended up with 5 Blasters, Two Defenders, and a Scrapper.
...Of course, it was the Cavern of Transcendence, and people kept going AFK for some reason.
Really though, every powerset is viable in this game. A dark armor tank can tank just fine. A Sonic Defender is amazing when played right. A Force Field defender is really useful, even if I personally found it incredibly boring. Probably because I was on a mastermind. Thugs/FF isn't exactly an "Active" combination.
Besides, Buffs and Debuffs are (in the long run) much more important that healing.
Focusing solely on healing is like trying to win a battle by throwing more and more troops at the enemy. You can win, but you'll have an easier time (and you'll lose less troops) if you improve your army's equipment and training (Buffs) while trying to force the enemy into an unfavorable position (Debuffs).
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I can't see any reason why, with a few temp powers and a pile of inspirations, you couldn't do an all-blaster STF. In fact, I'd be amazed if someone hasn't already done one.
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Originally Posted by Maxwell
Lets see you do an STF with that team makeup. And by the way - Most blasters HAVE buffs/debuffs on their build, and killing everything before it kills you stands for agro management. My statement stands true.
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I completely agree with Silverado's contribution to this thread.
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Not really then, as your original statement implies you can construct a team without those but it'll fail where as your statement above implies that you can't create a team without it as most damage dealers have debuffs too and killing stuff is agro management. I don't agree with that either, agro management implies you are controlling it in some manner. Blasters just remove it entirely by killing everything before it becomes a problem. There is no management, more avoidence.
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Originally Posted by Maxwell
Lets see you do an STF with that team makeup. And by the way - Most blasters HAVE buffs/debuffs on their build, and killing everything before it kills you stands for agro management. My statement stands true.
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On this subject?|
Originally Posted by Peacemoon
Oh well, rant over. :-)
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Don't bet on it.
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You're joking, right? All blaster STF's have been done. So have all tank ones.
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Originally Posted by Maxwell
Lets see you do an STF with that team makeup.
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Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
I must point out, I play a Martial Arts/Invulnerability/Flight (or Speed, depending on which 'set' I use) Scrapper and on my first few days playing Rider 00, I noticed he fared better than a Tanker who was on the same sewer team as me.
This game isn't like WoW at all. We have all these combination and from what I've seen, if you set up your character right most of the tank you are better at taking damage than the classes 'meant for that role'. With CoX, it's not about class or 'role', its about how you play your character and the skill you have. I've ventured with Blasters that have but my Scrapper to shame when it came to the amount of damage one can dish out and take.
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dead = managed
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Originally Posted by Diggis
Not really then, as your original statement implies you can construct a team without those but it'll fail where as your statement above implies that you can't create a team without it as most damage dealers have debuffs too and killing stuff is agro management. I don't agree with that either, agro management implies you are controlling it in some manner. Blasters just remove it entirely by killing everything before it becomes a problem. There is no management, more avoidence.
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I doubt it. A blaster with no buffs? Does that mean they don't use their shields, secondaries or inspirations? Yeah - okay.
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Originally Posted by Ironblade
You're joking, right? All blaster STF's have been done. So have all tank ones.
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/thread! As they say. (well put!)
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Originally Posted by Steampunkette
No. You will never get rid of the stigma. It's not the "WoW" approach, either. It's -far- older.
Try D&D Older. The "Holy Quartet" has been in play since the 70's. The Holy Trinity is what happens when you cut out the skill-system. It's not going away. Campaigning about it to raise awareness won't help, either. You've got to educate on an individual level and then stick with the educated... Form long-term bonds rather than PuGs. -Rachel- |
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Oh, I see. I thought you meant blasters in general.|
Originally Posted by Maxwell
I doubt it. A blaster with no buffs? Does that mean they don't use their shields, secondaries or inspirations? Yeah - okay.
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You mean blasters deliberately gimping themselves and playing stupidly.
Yeah, I doubt it too.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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dead=managed only if you want to distort the terms that badly. It's like saying dead=healing because once everything is dead you can stand around and watch the green bar go up.
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Originally Posted by Maxwell
dead = managed
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The annoyance of the Ops gripe is and has always been pervasive blueside, as people have stated.
Few people (PUGS) seem to know how to minion pull, break line of sight, or even know how to look around corners without aggroing unecessarily and it all feeds back into the same reliance on Tank+He4lur thing and self perpetuates.
The last week I have been playing redside on my Stalker and it was a refreshing change. People seem to grab whoevers available and roll on without much, if at all, of "we need this or that" mentality (Outside of some few PUG SF's).
When GR comes out it MAY start to change the blueside holy trinity dynamic to more closely resembling redside behavior. Personally, I think it will start to change and I also think that Tanks, at the least, will become even less popular overall than they are now.
Regardless, everyone here who is serious/annoyed about trying to raise awareness about these things ought to put a line in their search description field saying something that captures the gist of this thread. If, for no other reason, than to be able to identify like minded peeople. Only thing is, how should it be said? Come up with something clear and brief and I will do so, maybe others will as well.
Masterminds annoy everybody, sooner or later. Heck, Masterminds annoy themselves.
-ShadowsBetween
*shrug*
I've only run into this mentality rarely, largely because it's not as prevalent in later levels, at least in my experience, and I haven't brought up a lowbie in a while.
Heh. Did hit it not too terribly long ago, though- playing my TA/A 'fender, duoed with my fiancee's Fire/Fire Blaster. Joined a Katie, and they were trying to recruit one last person (with minimal success). After a while, I suggested that we just go, and one of the team members complained that we 'needed a tank'. I proceeded to point out that we had three Controllers, plus my rather control-heavy Defender, and I think one other 'fender as well. We were going to be fine. This was rebuffed, since we 'obviously' needed a Tank.
After a certain amount of irritable sarcasm on my part, they reluctantly acquiesced, and we ripped through the TF like it wasn't there (witches spawning on a glue patch + oil slick = hilarity).
As to your comment, Blunt_Trauma, there's a simple way to put it.
"Will not play with 'pure' healers."
"A soft answer turneth away wrath. Once wrath is looking the other way, shoot it in the head." Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates
MA Arcs: #12285, "Small Fears", #106553, "Trollbane", #12669, "How to Survive a Robot Uprising"
I was thinking more along the lines of: "Tank + Healer mentality = L2P n00b!"
edit: L2P means learn to play, btw. Also the Ops mention of the Scrapper friends comment of "Less QQ, more pew pew" means less talk more fight. Ie: ADD afflicted, tacticless and mindless running around bunnyhopping fps style.
Masterminds annoy everybody, sooner or later. Heck, Masterminds annoy themselves.
-ShadowsBetween
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I don't do those things either. Nothing to do with thinking I need tanks or healers. I don't do them cos they're boring and charging in madly is way more fun. And given how easy the majority of CoH's content is, I'd argue that those people who bother with things like pulling are the n00bs* |
Originally Posted by Blunt_Trauma
Few people (PUGS) seem to know how to minion pull, break line of sight, or even know how to look around corners without aggroing unecessarily and it all feeds back into the same reliance on Tank+He4lur thing and self perpetuates.
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*yes, there are odd times when it's useful. But the majority of the time, when someone says "lets pull", it seems to me to be because they come from other games where the thought of a team fighting 20+ mobs without dying is anathema, and are just wasting time.
... wait, you need a team to fight 20+ mobs? <.<
"A soft answer turneth away wrath. Once wrath is looking the other way, shoot it in the head." Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates
MA Arcs: #12285, "Small Fears", #106553, "Trollbane", #12669, "How to Survive a Robot Uprising"
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And all controller.
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Originally Posted by Ironblade
You're joking, right? All blaster STF's have been done. So have all tank ones.
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@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
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Sadly yes. You can only aggro 17 at once |
Originally Posted by TeChameleon
... wait, you need a team to fight 20+ mobs? <.<
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Hunh. I feel that Tanker Tuesday should include some sort of herding event to test this. Like taking 20+ tanks to Perez and git along all them little doggies! |
Originally Posted by PhroX
Sadly yes. You can only aggro 17 at once
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My pet peeve is people who refuse to acknowledge it when I tell them my character has unlimited power. If I rp attack them they are of course disintegrated beyond the ability of any hospital or magic to restore. Yet despite this they refuse to delete their characters and still keep playing them as if nothing happened. ~Mandu, 07-16-2010
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Tankers are the only AT which have a higher cap on the amount of enemies that can attack them at once. Don't know what the number is, but I know its higher then everyone else. :-)
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Originally Posted by Ashtoreth_NA
Hunh. I feel that Tanker Tuesday should include some sort of herding event to test this. Like taking 20+ tanks to Perez and git along all them little doggies!
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*grin*|
Originally Posted by PhroX
Sadly yes. You can only aggro 17 at once
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Depends how you do it. If you've got Carrion Creepers, each of which have an aggro cap of their own, that number goes up a fair ways :3
"A soft answer turneth away wrath. Once wrath is looking the other way, shoot it in the head." Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates
MA Arcs: #12285, "Small Fears", #106553, "Trollbane", #12669, "How to Survive a Robot Uprising"
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Originally Posted by Rigel_Kent
Fine in theory, but how do we get the snowball rolling? By being just as bad as the trinity types. When you advertise LFM, say something like "do not want healer, healers are crap, want buffer debuffer or blastfender." When you advertise LFT, say something like "skipped worthless heal powers, I have the buffs and debuffs and blasts that actually help."
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My trapper's search comment now reads "1 R n0+ h3410r" (or something like that) after receiving dozens (not kidding) of tells from people looking for "healers", and comments from teammates like, "Damn, still need a healer."
Since I put the comment in, the overall number of invites I get is way down ... but the percentage of decent (non-RO) teams I've been on is WAAAAY up.
I haven't read through the entire thread ... but I think some (a lot of?) people like heals because they're OMG obvious. You generally know where they're coming from. You know they're doing something (many people don't seem to get that heal numbers always flash up, even when your HP bar is full). (De)buffs are more subtle; if an AV hits you for 250 damage instead of 1000 (from, say, a combination of -damage and +resistance), your typical player will just notice he got hit and that someone stepped up and healed the damage. He will have no inkling that he should've taken four times the damage, and that the heal, however timely, is one third as effective as the (de)buffs.
FWIW, I've run with RO for 2 or 3 years now. One of my first toons (Issue 1ish) was my FF defender. I've logged hundreds of AV fights on my Dark / Dark defender. I've done 90+ levels of Traps. I've thrown out thousands of Speed Boosts. I had one of the game's first Fire / Fire perma-dons (in I9, no less -- pre-Purples). And *I* can't tell by looking at the effects going off around me who has what debuffs (and sometimes even controls) going off on mobs on big teams. And the feedback for knowing how much incoming damage was reduced by buffs is pathetically lacking.
But heals I can pick out. Hell, I can even tell what heal I just got hit with by looking at the green numbers and the locations of the heals. And, form there, I can usually tell who cast the power.
But there's no such visual confirmation on-screen besides the occasional "Dodged!" for other (de)buffs. And that tells me precious little about who did the leg-work for getting the mob to miss me, or hit me for less damage.
For a game that went the extra mile to break dependence on heals, the lack of visual feedback seems like a rather large oversight.
An Empath's JOB is putting the AoE Heal on auto and healing everyone and everything all the time leaving no time for anything else because anything else is a waste of end, waste of time and waste of Healing.
But then that's some of what I've been told, and others are incredible (like one guy saying that non-Farming players need to be banned from the game)
There have been times where my Dark Defender was kicked from teams because he "wasn't a Healer", and I've seen people hold on tightly to the idea that any non-Empath Defender is a waste of time to play because they don't heal. That is what we rage against because an Emp/Psi Defender has 18 Primary/Secondary powers to use and they're all useful; but many people insist that only the first 3 in Empathy is worthwhile and that's all they use, even when told otherwise or even shown otherwise.
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It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.