Seriously fix EM (and TA)
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2010-05-21 08:46 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Just thought I'd mention that my Energy Melee Stalker is my absolute favorite villain to play. I got into him before the nerf (and discovering pre-nerf Energy Transfer helped me realize that I didn't hate Stalkers), but even after, I still love to play him. Hell, from the moment I got Energy Transfer, my first thought was, "Oh man, this is so overpowered, it's definitely getting nerfed someday."
Then again, I tend to either solo or play small teams. And I don't mind longer animations. But I just thought I should put my voice in... some people still enjoy EM and find it fun to play. Not saying other people are wrong or anything... just saying I like it. And it's definitely not unplayable.
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Not unplayable. But not as fun for alot of people either. I still love the looks of EM (love the pom poms). And it could be the ATs that factor into it as well. Different playstyles and everything.|
Originally Posted by Patteroast
Just thought I'd mention that my Energy Melee Stalker is my absolute favorite villain to play. I got into him before the nerf (and discovering pre-nerf Energy Transfer helped me realize that I didn't hate Stalkers), but even after, I still love to play him. Hell, from the moment I got Energy Transfer, my first thought was, "Oh man, this is so overpowered, it's definitely getting nerfed someday."
Then again, I tend to either solo or play small teams. And I don't mind longer animations. But I just thought I should put my voice in... some people still enjoy EM and find it fun to play. Not saying other people are wrong or anything... just saying I like it. And it's definitely not unplayable. |
For my Tanker, I was doing weak damage as it was. Now, I'm doing weak damage, and whiffing on dead bodies in PvE. :/
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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They actually tweaked the new animation some time after the nerf, making it so he didnt stare at his hands as he raised them. To me, it was definately a big improvement, because that was my major issue with the animation itself. However, it didnt resolve the powers issues to me. The set is way too choppy to be playable. |
Originally Posted by BrandX
EM used to be fun, and now it's not. And what I can't decide is if it's because I still hate the new animation or because it's a long animation. Maybe it's both. But I know when they made the change, I kept arguing to change the animation.
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Im not deleting my 50 em/imvuln, because the last 50 toon I deleted I ended up regretting it, and people refer to me ingame by that toons (my 50 em/uinvulns) name, but hes gonna have his spot on the second page of my log in screen, where hes left ignored, until effective buffs are given and he is once again playable.
My TA is still going to get my attention, but thats mostly because hes a thugs/ta, and all those long activation times keep me doing something and half interested, so it sorta works. Though I must say it was an epic mistake to roll a thugs with no means of directly buffing the arsonists survivability. That dude is a complete maniac.
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I love how you almost say my comparison of Fearsome Stare to Flash Arrow is unfair because Fearsome Stare is a much higher level, while being happy to compare Acid Arrow and Disruption Arrow to a much lower level power in Tar Patch.|
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
I'm not sure why you're comparing Trick Arrow to Dark Armor
But you're missing the point. Tar Patch does -30% res and -90% run speed. Acid Arrow does -15% res and -20% def (and DM has no -def) with Disruption Arrow applying an additional -15% res. Glue Arrow inflicts the same slow effect as Tar Patch, plus -20% recharge (which DM can't do). To a single target, Entangling Arrow applies an additional -10% spd and -10% rech. Ice Arrow and Petrifying Gaze are the same... except Ice Arrow applies -10% spd and -10% rech as well. Poison Gas Arrow applies -20% damage, while Darkest Night applies -30% and Twilight Grasp applies -10%. The long animation times in TA are it's biggest issue, because while TA's effects make it comparable to other debuff sets, TA's effects are spread out among multiple powers. The only place TA can shine with a single power is EMP Arrow, but that's almost identical to Radiation Emission's EM Pulse and it's not a power you can use every spawn. I'm not sure why you're asking me to compare Flash Arrow (T2, an average power normally) with Fearsome Stare (T6, one of the best tohit debuff powers in the game). FA is much closer to Twilight Grasp (T1) -- in fact, they apply the same tohit debuff. I wasn't cherrypicking with my earlier side comment. I was pointing out a quirk of Flash Arrow that is often missed when people look at the power. Flash Arrow has an unresistable -tohit. IIRC, the only unresistable -tohit available to players. Dark Miasma, lauded as the tohit debuffing set (rightly earned: on a Corruptor or Mastermind, DM has 35% tohit debuffs, plus a pet which can apply an additional 55% -- base values). A level 50 AV will resist 85% of most debuffs (including tohit), lowering DM to 5.25% (self, unslotted) and 8.25% (Dark Servant, unslotted). Flash Arrow remains 5%. With slotting, the numbers change to ~7.875% (self), ~12.375% (Dark Servant), and ~7.5% (Flash Arrow). My point was that while Flash Arrow normally has little effect in preventing team damage (in normal gameplay, it's more useful for stealthing due to the -perception and the fact that it doesn't cause aggro), that small quirk of its design makes the single power on-par with 2 click powers and a toggle from the set known for its tohit debuffs (and two of those 3 powers in DM are tied for third-strongest -tohit powers available to players, behind Dark Servant's Chill of the Night and Dark Blast's Blackstar). |
Let's see, acid arrow hits one or two guys and Tar Patch has a monster AoE...and provides the 90% slow. So you add in Disruption Arrow you're making a nice argument that two TA powers can almost do the job of one Dark power - nice!
Let me repeat: having to cast two debuffs to have the effect of one from another set isn't an animation time problem. It's a power sucking problem.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
Not unplayable. But not as fun for alot of people either. I still love the looks of EM (love the pom poms). And it could be the ATs that factor into it as well. Different playstyles and everything.
For my Tanker, I was doing weak damage as it was. Now, I'm doing weak damage, and whiffing on dead bodies in PvE. :/ |
Look at how they did Dual Pistols...Really awesome animations, crappy damage. I still play it, but it wasnt the unbridled win it could have been.
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
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Don't worry; no one does. It's not terrible for Controllers and some of them play it, but for Corruptors and Defenders the stench of uselessness is strong enough to keep away most good players.
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Originally Posted by New_Dark_Age
I do not play TA so I should not give a comment. |
In my opinion EM was fine before the nerf. I didn't have a ton of experience with it pre-nerf, as I had just gotten ET on my brute before the bat came down. However, this was a set that did nothing special until you get ET. That's your uber power. The one-hit-wonder that makes the set. I don't understand why they arbitrarily decided to single out EM in the first place when you can point at practically any set and find a power that pushes a set over the "edge." Foot Stomp, Fulcrum, Fault/tremor, Freezing Rain, Shield Charge, Lightning Rod, Fearsome Stare, Seeds of Confusion and more.
Other than ET, what did EM have? Stacking stuns against single targets. Good. Not great. Whirling Hands is not even worth mentioning.
It just seemed so random to nerf EM when they did, and as badly as they did. Well, I guess one could chalk it up to PvP, which is a pathetic excuse. As far as I'm concerned, all they need to do is is give ET the old animation back so it restores the feel of the set. Leave the stun mag nerf in there if it makes everyone feel better. They may not have fundamentally changed any powers, but they fundamentally changed the entire feel of the set which in my opinion is far worse than breaking the "cottage" rule.
Also, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel that ST damage chart is pretty useless when you wanna compare EM to other sets and say "SEE SEE! EM is FINE! Crap AoE, best ST. Balance!!!" To me it's like comparing a Ford Taurus with a 1000hp engine to a 500hp Ferrari and saying they somehow compare because the Taurus can win on a half-mile drag. Put them in a real-world scenario (race track with actual turns and varying conditions) and the Ferrari would smoke the Taurus every time and look a lot better doing it!
I'm not sure if the numbers were somehow made to factor in regular team-based scenarios so someone correct me if it was. Maybe EM can beat out everything else in ST when you stick it in an empty room and have it whale on a sack of HP. That says nothing of how it actually works in-game, either solo or on a team, or whether or not the set is any fun. Most opinions I've read from EM players more experienced than I seem to agree that the ET nerf ruined their love of the set.
More AoE is NOT what the set needs. It needs it's old feel back.
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No, I'm making the argument that TA's animation times are a problem: the effects you wish to achieve are generally spread between multiple powers, mean you have to spend more time animating to achieve what you want. The advantage that TA does have is the wide array of debuffs TA has available. I think Radiation Emission is the only one that can really match TA's spread.
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Originally Posted by MaxLongstreet
Let's see, acid arrow hits one or two guys and Tar Patch has a monster AoE...and provides the 90% slow. So you add in Disruption Arrow you're making a nice argument that two TA powers can almost do the job of one Dark power - nice!
Let me repeat: having to cast two debuffs to have the effect of one from another set isn't an animation time problem. It's a power sucking problem. |
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My Fire/TA Corr would like a word with you.
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Originally Posted by MaxLongstreet
Don't worry; no one does. It's not terrible for Controllers and some of them play it, but for Corruptors and Defenders the stench of uselessness is strong enough to keep away most good players.
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Eh, I'm not sure I follow.
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Originally Posted by MaxLongstreet
It's not terrible for Controllers and some of them play it, but for Corruptors and Defenders the stench of uselessness is strong enough to keep away most good players.
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I do agree that EM is below average after the ET nerf, as in the end, except for the small number of skilled people that solo AVs/GMs, AoE will always be king so leaving Energy as it was always seemed fine to me.
However, personally I don't think the devs would ever simply *reverse* a change/nerf that they implemented. Thus I think they should either up the damage slightly, or speed up the animation by ~1 second. I don't think a completely new animation change is likely, but with power customization and the SS/MA changes, you never know.
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I've got an IOd out WP/EM tanker, and I have absolutely no problem with Energy Transfer. I wouldn't mind if it did a little more damage (more than willing to sacrifice a little more health for it too), but it's fine.
What I do begrudge is having Total Focus. If they added some splash damage to it (say, just the energy component of the ST damage, 7 feet radius), that'd mean I could use it in PvE.
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I never played TA, but I 100% agree with the OP about Energy Melee.
I had a EM/WP brute I liked to play before the nerf (and I dont think it was my most powerful character from far), now she's not fun anymore but feels slow as hell in the single target department, while being totally worthless on the AoE side. My SS/ and SM/ brutes deal the same kind of single target dmg, in a more fluid way, while being much better on the AoE side.
- The ET nerf was really horrible to the set. I wish they would have lowered the dmg a bit, or even better, raised the dmg done to oneself (as it's supposed to be the reason behind such a high DPA attack). And I dont dislike the new animation from a graphic point of view. But the set now has its main 2 big attacks around 3 sec animation time and thus lost most of its fun and fast pace.
- There was no reason to remove the mag 4 stun on TF considering how long is the animation (a very fast seismic smash still holds at mag 4).
From my point of view, it's just one set less to play with. Sad story.
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When they went about nerfing EM. I didn't care about the stun in TF being reduced. Still don't.|
Originally Posted by Ehina
I never played TA, but I 100% agree with the OP about Energy Melee.
I had a EM/WP brute I liked to play before the nerf (and I dont think it was my most powerful character from far), now she's not fun anymore but feels slow as hell in the single target department, while being totally worthless on the AoE side. My SS/ and SM/ brutes deal the same kind of single target dmg, in a more fluid way, while being much better on the AoE side. - The ET nerf was really horrible to the set. I wish they would have lowered the dmg a bit, or even better, raised the dmg done to oneself (as it's supposed to be the reason behind such a high DPA attack). And I dont dislike the new animation from a graphic point of view. But the set now has its main 2 big attacks around 3 sec animation time and thus lost most of its fun and fast pace. - There was no reason to remove the mag 4 stun on TF considering how long is the animation (a very fast seismic smash still holds at mag 4). From my point of view, it's just one set less to play with. Sad story. |
But what you say in the first comment is really it. the set feels slower. I'm hitting dead enemies more often (two attacks versus one).
I even suggested raising the damage done to self to make up for it even more. No go. :/
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The BrandX Collection
I still love my Fire/EM Tank (pl'er of choice at lvl 50), but I have Blazing Aura and Fireball to help Whirling Hands out with the AOE.
I suppose it really tells me what I think of EM that I would never, ever make another EM.
Delete my lvl 50?
Hell, no.
Make another EM?
Hell, no.
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TA is quite underrated. OSA is going to be fixed in the VERY near future, so that complaint is completely pointless. The fix is already on future builds, without getting too much into it. The only thing I could see people wanting is for acid arrow to hit a larger AOE. I run Assault and Tactics on my TA/Arch and mobs are wiped out very, very quickly. You stack disruption, acid, and assault and it's no joke, let alone everything else in the set.|
Originally Posted by RabidBrian
TA is just lackluster. you get every debuff in the game, but in such small incraments that its rather ineffective, especially since its an all debuff set with 0 buffing abilities. It should not be getting outdebuffed by sets that have buffs. Especially with OSA like it is, poorly WAI at best.
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It plays much like Traps, only it's tier 9 is actually not one of the worst powers in the game.
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OSA needs some fixing, which is coming soon(™) The rest of the set is fine IMO. Both my Illusion/TA controller and Arch/TA corr bring a lot to a team.
I see EM as a powerful ST set, lacking hugely when it comes to AoE. It's a trade off, I can accept that. I've stated before I don't have any experience with EM before the change. From my perspective EM is a good set and my EM/SR Brute tears things apart. Whether it be due to being softcapped or not, I don't think the set should be defined. What I would want to see added to the set is an improvement to Whirling Hands. A slight damage buff and please, please, a radius buff. The animation looks bigger then what it actually hits. lol
Simply adding damage to WH doesnt address the second of the major concerns with EM. As far as I can tell, the major concerns are low aoe and attacks that are too slow. Giving WH a slight buff in the damage department will definately pick the sets aoe damage up, but without reducing ET's animation time you will still have the issue of having two too long powers. I dont want TF to become thunderstrike, and I definately dont want similar treatment to ET. But as it stands, we have two situational big hitters, but both those big hitters are even more situational than big hitters in other sets because they take so long to animate. If you are playing an SM toon, you know when you are using Seismic smash on guys and you can choose to use it fairly easily because it has no drawbacks. With ET and TF, its a question of "is this damage wasted" every time. If it takes lowering the damage to get ET on an animation thats under/at 2 seconds, then so be it. I dont think you will have many complaints.
As far as TA goes, fixing OSA will go a long way because people will just be excited to get on their trickers again. However, TA needs help. Its an all debuff set that has pretty weak powers. My major fixes would be increasing the radius of disruption arrow, or possibly adding a small mag stun/disorient/hold to it, So it functions similar to poison trap. As it stands, we use two powers to do less -resistance than similar sets get in one power. Glue arrow needs its -rech buffed a small degree. And poison gas arrow could use a buff to its -damage component. It would be nice to have some direction with TA. I dont know what the set is supposed to be good at. All we know is its an all debuff set with 0 buffs that gets outdebuffed by mixed sets.
EDIT: forgot to add in AOE radius increase for acid arrow to at LEAST 15. It is weaker than other sets similar powers yet it has a concentrated small aoe? ye-NO!
Add -regen to Poison gas arrow. 500% for 20 seconds
Add the short duration mez to disruption arrow that nullifiers get
OSA needs to work all the time
Make flash arrow resistable boost it to 15% tohit debuff (defender version)
Increase radius on acid arrow to 12'
Increase -rech on Glue to 40-50%
Increase -rech on entangle to match webnade
= I love TA
My EM characters are retired till I figure out what I want to do with them
no more deleting 50's when I can ship em out elsewhere
and I'm having fun with my Fire/TA Corrupter, so