Seriously fix EM (and TA)
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2010-05-21 08:46 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Agreed. And as expected, the question then falls back to: Is EM's AoE damage output and overall mitigation high *enough* as is to be considered balanced against its current position in ST damage output?|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Well, not really, since it's only looking at ST damage output. For instance, if your statement were true, then Spines would need a lot more buffing than EM would. However, Spines has a lot of AoE damage, and so could be just fine. Dark Melee also has a lot of tricks, and so would be higher on the "useful" sets list than something like Fire Melee, even though Fire Melee is higher than it.
The chart does a great job at showing the ST damage of the various sets, but a lot more needs to be looked at than it for determining what needs buffed and what doesn't. |
I have to go with: Hell no.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Yeah Aett thorn likes to read excerpts so they work best with whatever half knowledgable objection hes about to blurt out, whether thats the actual context or not, and goes about it rather coarsely. Yeah, coarsely shouldnt get me modded...|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
I didn't mean the only thing as in the only parameter. I meant to say the chart should not include extra recharge beyond what SOs can provide when looked at from a balance standpoint.
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TA is a tough one because if you were to just increase all its buffs slightly, it would become rather OP'd, at least for some AT's. It is very overwhelming as is though. I would definately suggest to any interested parties to check out trickshooters thread on it. Somehow, TA's managed to keep a solid thread going where EM change threads get so flamed up they have to die and cool down before another can be made. My guess being TA has basically blown in one way or another from the beginning and has never had OSA completely WAI, so its more accepted at this point.
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Easy now, I admit that the way I stated things could have been clearer.
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Originally Posted by RabidBrian
Yeah Aett thorn likes to read excerpts so they work best with whatever half knowledgable objection hes about to blurt out, whether thats the actual context or not, and goes about it rather coarsely. Yeah, coarsely shouldnt get me modded...
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I actually figured that Dechs knew what I was saying. I just wanted OTHER people to know that. My apologies if it came across as me not thinking that Dechs knew that.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Easy now, I admit that the way I stated things could have been clearer.
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Still, Rabib, you want to put some examples forth of where I've done what you stated I do, without apologizing for it?
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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All of DM combined minus Dark Servant is a little less effective than slotted Flash Arrow: ~7.8% debuff vs ~9.75%.|
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
(Also, worth noting: While DM is lauded as the super duper awesome -tohit set, against a lv50 AV all of DM combined is about as effective as slotted Flash Arrow)
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But with Dark Servant at range DM moves up to around 12-13%. If you can keep Dark Servant in melee range it's up to about 18%, which although nowhere near what it does against minions etc, is still pretty noticeable and well ahead of Flash Arrow.
You also have 5-7.5% defense (depending on enhancement choice) on top of that, which is effectively the same as -tohit but won't be affected by the 87% debuff resists (so will push even non-servant DM to values about 130-155% of Flash Arrow.
Obviously that's not all Trick Arrow brings to the fight, nor is it all Dark Miasma brings, but I don't think it's accurate to say Flash Arrow is "about as effective" as the entirety of Dark Miasma combined for -tohit, even with AV resists in play. And for pure damage mitigation, I'd definitely much rather have Dark Miasma than Trick Arrow for any AV fight.
(edit: I'm assuming Flash Arrow doesn't stack with itself from the same user - I think that's correct?)
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You did it in your first two posts in this thread. I pointed it out the first time, completely ignored the second post considering the statement you quoted completely goes against what you follow it up with. But since you had to bring it up:|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Still, Rabib, you want to put some examples forth of where I've done what you stated I do, without apologizing for it?
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| If this is true, then this is a pointless thread, and should be locked. You've just admitted that you don't want it to be about discussing changes, just ranting. |
As one of my main characters is an EM/ brute, I'd have to say that while the I did like the furiously fast old ET, I can see why they changed it. It does change how the set looks/works, but It's still effective. The mez reduction on total focus was does mean you have to work a bit harder to keep full stuns down on hard targets, but I can understand why they did it. It was really high damage AND stuns on an attack that really wasn't that slow to recharge.
Whirling hands I can't weigh in on, as I skipped it.
But "stun?" it's an 8th-tier power with long cast time and low damage. I'd love for it to either receive the 'beanbag' treatment (extremely fast new animation) or the 'clobber' treatment. (Damage added.) I'd prefer the former...this way there's some fast mitigation to give breathing room to the long-casting big-hitters. Big enemies weighing in on you, and you'd still like to pop off some enemies? Pop a stun on 'em here and there, very fast. Then you have room to do the big "I'm jumping!" "I'm striking!" total focus/energy transfers without worrying as much about the oncoming waves of damage for those times you're stuck in your theatrics.
Heck, give stun the old ET animation. No big imbalance to damage output, but a boost to mitigation.
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This is what I thought was going to happen from the beginning. When I first rolled an EM toon I thought the dev's had originally messed up and switched their animations, liked how it was and kept it.
| Heck, give stun the old ET animation. No big imbalance to damage output, but a boost to mitigation. |
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Except, that you still admitted that you weren't posting this to be constructive. Just saying that something should be changed is fairly useless. It's exactly like saying something like this:|
Originally Posted by RabidBrian
You did it in your first two posts in this thread. I pointed it out the first time, completely ignored the second post considering the statement you quoted completely goes against what you follow it up with. But since you had to bring it up:
Just because Im not discussing HOW to change it doesnt mean I am just ranting about change. I am discussing WHY it should be changed, which is just as important as how. Also, you quoted me saying Im all for people tossing out their suggested changes to it, so what was the purpose of that post? Or did you just forget to read the rest of what you were quoting? |
"I think my car is broken. I don't care to fix it, but I just wanted you to know."
To which the only response can be: "Well, okay then."
As such, the point of your OP was just to rant. Granted, you're kindly allowing us to use your thread to point out suggestions (how nice of you), but the point of your original post was NOT to do that. Hence why your OP is useless, not this thread. Especially given the much longer thread on TA that happened very recently here, and offered a lot of good suggestions on that, and that you seem to admit that there are lots of EM threads out there, any one of which you could have posted this in, if they are as rampant as you say.
Edit -> I'd also like to bring this up:
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How the cottage house rule didnt apply to the ET nerf I dont know, but when you make the power animation 2.5 times longer on THE SET DEFINING POWER, You have changed that ENTIRE set. Theres no way around it. No reason behind the nerf can change that fact. You completely changed the way the set works with a nerf, and did not buff it anywhere else. In fact, you accompanied the nerf with another nerf (though much smaller in effect for the melee AT's, but still.) Now you have people deleting their level 50 EM toons, rather than play them. The playstyle is crap. Ive been spending most of my time creating new toons and running PuG's and I couldnt tell you the last time I saw an EM toon. And hundreds of threads say Im not the only one. |
"I don't see it in PUGs, therefore the set must be broken" is bad logic. It might be the case, but isn't necessarily true. Attributing that argument as fact seems much more like a rant to me than anything else.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Do you actually play a high level TA Corruptor? I tend to doubt it, based on your post.|
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
Err... TA is not like Dark Miasma at all. I wouldn't say TA is the best support set available, but it's not bad, either.
TA's biggest problems are animation times and an unreliable OSA. (Also, worth noting: While DM is lauded as the super duper awesome -tohit set, against a lv50 AV all of DM combined is about as effective as slotted Flash Arrow) |
TA's biggest problems are NOT animation times and an unreliable OSA. These are minor issues. TA's biggest problems are that its numbers stink. Run the numbers vs. DA, since as debuff sets they are very comparable. One example: Tar patch, a level 2 power gives -30% resist and 90% slow, while Disruption arrow, a level 28 TA power, gives -15% resist and no other effects. Compare Flash Arrow with Fearsome Stare while your at it. TA numbers just suck.
Your blatant cherrypicking regarding Flash Arrow doesn't speak well of your argument - level 50 AVs are not what one is fighting most of the time. As others point out, TA is still far worse here. But against normal targets, things like Fearsome Stare are game changing while Flash Arrow is barely noticeable.
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Hey, I've got an idea - why don't you discuss the power sets instead of attacking someone for posting a thread on a topic others have written about before? It's not about ranting; it's about continuously putting game problems front and center.
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Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Except, that you still admitted that you weren't posting this to be constructive. Just saying that something should be changed is fairly useless. It's exactly like saying something like this:
"I think my car is broken. I don't care to fix it, but I just wanted you to know." To which the only response can be: "Well, okay then." As such, the point of your OP was just to rant. Granted, you're kindly allowing us to use your thread to point out suggestions (how nice of you), but the point of your original post was NOT to do that. Hence why your OP is useless, not this thread. Especially given the much longer thread on TA that happened very recently here, and offered a lot of good suggestions on that, and that you seem to admit that there are lots of EM threads out there, any one of which you could have posted this in, if they are as rampant as you say. |
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And I really am fine with that. I take exception when people come here and say things like "I think this set should be fixed, but have no clue how to do it." At that point, the post is fairly meaningless.|
Originally Posted by MaxLongstreet
Hey, I've got an idea - why don't you discuss the power sets instead of attacking someone for posting a thread on a topic others have written about before? It's not about ranting; it's about continuously putting game problems front and center.
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I think that the Fix TA thread was a great one. It offered a lot of good fix ideas, and started off with a big list of potential fixes that people could then discuss.
But coming out and pretty much saying that you don't care to do the actual work, just whine about how the set is currently doesn't get anyone anywhere. Take some time and actually come up with some kind of solution to the problem.
I mean, if Rabid had come here and said something like this about EM:
I have two problems with EM: 1) the recent nerf to ET has slowed down the set too much, and 2) you don't see EM enough in PUGs. I think that you can fix this by speeding up some of the animations, even if you have to leave ET as is. I think that this would fix the second problem as well.
Then I would have had no problems with it at all. None. Zero. Nada. It's the attitude of coming here, presenting a problem, and then offering no solutions that bothers me.
Do I think that EM could use some fixes? Yes. Do I think that ET's animation is too long, especially given the rest of the set? Yes. Do I think that the AoE damage and AoE mitigation of the set is way too low in the set's current implementation? Yes. But if I was to come and create a thread on it, I wouldn't just leave it at that. I would suggest improvements to it, like:
1) Speed up the TF animation, so that there aren't two really long animating powers in the set.
2) Increase the damage and radius of Whirling Hands. That would help with both the mitigation and damage in the AoE department.
Otherwise, it really is just saying something akin to: "The government sucks!' "Well, do you know how to fix it?" "No, I just wanted to complain about it."
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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I don't recall what recharge that list was done at, but stone needs a lot. Give it a lot and wow. Mixing in either gloom or fireblast (if it ever goes to scrappers) is pretty mean too, especially gloom.|
Originally Posted by Bocus_King
I woulda thought stone melee would be higher on the list
edit: just curious what type of recharge numbers where used to come up with these numbers? |
Not sure if it was mentioned, but one thing that really sucks about EM, aside from the excessive corpse blasting, is that when it comes time to optimize the build with some procs it cycles attacks so slowly that procs are around half as effective as seen in some other sets.
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There you go again reading the words you want to read and "forgetting" about the rest. I gave reason as to why. Maybe it took me a second post to get deeply into it, but I stated a reason as to why. Maybe I chose to do so because I feel walls of text on an OP can work against starting a discussion. | Except, that you still admitted that you weren't posting this to be constructive. Just saying that something should be changed is fairly useless |
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"I think my car is broken. I don't care to fix it, but I just wanted you to know." To which the only response can be: "Well, okay then." |
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| As such, the point of your OP was just to rant. |
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| Especially given the much longer thread on TA that happened very recently here |
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| and that you seem to admit that there are lots of EM threads out there, any one of which you could have posted this in, if they are as rampant as you say. |
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This would make sense if single target ability was equally valuable vs aoe ability, but it is not, especially in a game when you routinely fight more than one enemy at a time. |
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
I think BillZ has the final word on how well EM is performing.
This is his chart of single target damage set comparison. Notice that EM is only behind fire for damage with brutes, and would be the top performing scrapper set. EDIT: Curse you Bill! You beat me to the topic. I don't argue that EM is near worthless to teams, but if a set is top dog in one department and offers good mitigation, it has to suffer somewhere else. |
Then you have the balance problem in terms of several em competitors doing close to the same single target dmg and mitigation, while completely blowing em out of the water in terms of aoe dmg and mitigation.
Then on top of that, em's single target abilities are rendered nearly useless on teams, thanks to how the set plays. When you fire off the sets best single target attacks on a team, good luck getting them to land before teamates kill your target with their much faster hitting single target and aoe attacks. EM users routinely end up wasting thier single target strength pummeling corpses, and when they use their sets best power, many times the only one taking damage is the EM user, lol.
EM is clearly an underperforming set in this game.
Aett, thanks for the thoughtful response. In the spirit iof your post, I offer some very specific recommendations for TA. It's easy to recommend fixing the OSA bug, but given that this appears to be a system issue that's been very hard to fix, this may not be practical.
Simply tweaking the numbers, however, shouldn't be hard at all, and would really handle the whole thing. Here are a few suggestions - these numbers are based for Corruptors, which I play - they'd have to be tweaked for other classes appropriately.
Flash Arrow - adjust from 5% to 8%.
Disruption Arrow - adjust from 15% to 22.5%.
Poison Gas Arrow - adjust from 15% to 22.5%.
Acid Arrow - adjust resist debuff from 15% to 20%.
Glue Arrow - adjust minus recharge from 20% to 30%.
Entangling Arrow - MIDS doesn't list its minus recharge, but increase it significantly.
Make these kinds of changes and Trick Arrow would become respectable again.
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Keep in mind that performance and balance are done around SO play on standard +0/x1 difficulty, where you primarily are fighting single targets. Soloing on that difficulty, EM is perhaps the best powerset for the job. It offers second only to brute fire single target damage, but has enough mitigation to render bosses reliably stunned.|
Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
This would make sense if single target ability was equally valuable vs aoe ability, but it is not, especially in a game when you routinely fight more than one enemy at a time.
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In a team setting, EM may be less useful than other melee sets, but I'm not here to argue that.
I'm here to argue that different sets do different things. Fire does more damage than anything else, but offers no mitigation. Ice does much less damage, but is very control and mitigation heavy. EM is second only to fire for damage, but offers reliable mitigation. Those heavy pros are offset by the con of lacking AoE damage.
If you don't like it, roll something else.
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don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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First, you do not fight single targets on a +0x1 setting unless you are pulling mobs one by one, and succesfully. |
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Keep in mind that performance and balance are done around SO play on standard +0/x1 difficulty, where you primarily are fighting single targets. Soloing on that difficulty, EM is perhaps the best powerset for the job. It offers second only to brute fire single target damage, but has enough mitigation to render bosses reliably stunned.
In a team setting, EM may be less useful than other melee sets, but I'm not here to argue that. |
Second, that is not definitively how the game is balanced. Unless you have quoted the devs saying that, because if that were the case it wouldnt have taken til i17 for defenders to get a +dam buff when solo. And if this game is balanced around solo play, it is even more unbalanced than I first thought. How could they stick you with a team rez in your powerset if this game were balanced for solo play. So, team play has to come into the balance equation, in my eyes. Though after rereading your statement, you probly werent trying to tie +0x1 into soloing...
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Team balance does come into effect at some point. However, the devs have stated that the expect any powerset combination to be able to go through missions solo on the lowest difficulty setting in a reasonable amount of time. That does NOT mean that they expect every power to be useful for that purpose, only that characters should be able to do it (and yes, you can gimp a character so that they can't do that, but that takes some work).|
Originally Posted by RabidBrian
First, you do not fight single targets on a +0x1 setting unless you are pulling mobs one by one, and succesfully.
Second, that is not definitively how the game is balanced. Unless you have quoted the devs saying that, because if that were the case it wouldnt have taken til i17 for defenders to get a +dam buff when solo. And if this game is balanced around solo play, it is even more unbalanced than I first thought. How could they stick you with a team rez in your powerset if this game were balanced for solo play. So, team play has to come into the balance equation, in my eyes. |
However, that does mean that Defenders were working fine, based on that definition, even before I17. Were they as effective as other ATs? No, they weren't. However, they could do it, and that was okay at the time. Added to that, given the fact that the devs need to balance across ATs, and not overpower Defenders in the process of buffing them, it can be tough to come up with a solution that gets you the right results in terms of powerlevel across the AT, especially considering the wide variety of powersets that Defenders get. A Rad/Sonic Defender was likely soloing at speeds a FF/Elec Defender could only dream of. So it does get a little complicated.
However, the devs do design the game so that the sets are balanced around solo play, keeping in mind teaming at the same time. Solo at 1/+0 is the minimum baseline that they balance around. A full team running at +4 is likely their top limit of balancing.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
Performance balance has nothing to do with the bare minimum necessary for a set to be considered balanced. Its all based on comparing it to comparable sets. If it were based on the bare minimum, we would never see a buff, just an endless rotation of nerfs until all sets were at that bare minimum.
So the question is, how much teaming and how much soloing is considered into the balance equation. They both have to be there some.
How would you factor a toons performance in a +4/ 8 man team exactly? Serious question. Because so much of a toons survivability at that point is reliant on team structure. And in a way, same with the performance of each attack, except for the number of targets it is able to hit (ST v. AoE.)
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It may have something to do with the fact that energy is one the least resisted damage types.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Actually, it's proven to have higher single target damage than any other set, with the exception of fire melee for brutes.
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| Just because you don't understand how to stack stuns doesn't mean it doesn't have mitigation capabilities. |
Pretty much, AoE mitigation will always beat single target.
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Here's an easy way to balance everything perfectly: Change all the sets so that they do the exact same thing just with different animations.|
Originally Posted by RabidBrian
Performance balance has nothing to do with the bare minimum necessary for a set to be considered balanced. Its all based on comparing it to comparable sets. If it were based on the bare minimum, we would never see a buff, just an endless rotation of nerfs until all sets were at that bare minimum.
So the question is, how much teaming and how much soloing is considered into the balance equation. They both have to be there some. How would you factor a toons performance in a +4/ 8 man team exactly? Serious question. Because so much of a toons survivability at that point is reliant on team structure. And in a way, same with the performance of each attack, except for the number of targets it is able to hit (ST v. AoE.) |
No more shield charge, lightning rod, soul drain, fulcrum shift... none of that. Dark Miasma, Radiation Emission, Trick Arrow, and Empathy will have all their powers replaced so that they all have the same effects for enemies. Same treatment given to every other set of powers. They will all do the same exact thing, and now we're perfectly balanced.
Of course that's a ridiculous idea, but it's the only way to make things perfect.
Balance isn't a simple equation, but at its simplest principle is "If it's the best at one thing, it should suck at something else."
I'm fine with the little differences between sets.
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don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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No it has nothing to do with that. That was not taken into consideration for the tables (almost pos.) However, I do want to ask billz how he handled scrapper crits in his table. Also, as others have stated, those numbers are based on imaginary situations where you are hitting the same target for a sustained amount of time. ET and TF do not deal damage that way in most situations.
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Originally Posted by Atheism
It may have something to do with the fact that energy is one the least resisted damage types.
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Right back at you.|
Originally Posted by Atheism
I love your ignorance.
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Originally Posted by Atheism
It may have something to do with the fact that energy is one the least resisted damage types.
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Originally Posted by Atheism
Yes, EM does have mitigation, but the majority of the stuns aren't guaranteed, making the set worse than it already is.
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Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
As the rare person who has actually played a TA Corruptor up to high levels, I'd like to point out that I've yet to meet anyone else who has done so and thinks TA is any good. It's motto should be 'It's like Dark, except half the numbers and no pet and no heal'.
TA's biggest problems are animation times and an unreliable OSA.
(Also, worth noting: While DM is lauded as the super duper awesome -tohit set, against a lv50 AV all of DM combined is about as effective as slotted Flash Arrow)
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt